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theflyingorc posted:I don't really have a strong opinion, but I SUSPECT that US global actions are minimally less terrible than previous empires and I think that your use of "patently" isn't warranted. US actions are more or less average. Like I said we learned at the table of Europe. All things considered the US isn’t significantly better or significantly worse. The only unfair thing is now we have to listen to European MP’s lecture the US when the only reason they stopped being assholes want due to good will or conscience but only because they couldn’t keep on doing it.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:28
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Yeah, how could the country that operates mobile execution vans be worse that US, what a crazy thought Thank you for proving my point for me.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:28
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VitalSigns posted:Americans just can't handle the knowledge that America isn't some paradigm-defying benign empire, and it's just as lovely and horrible as every other lovely horrible historical empire but in more deniable ways and with a huge internal propaganda campaign to drill "imperialism is good, when it's America" into the heads of kids before they can even think. lol
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Apr 5, 2018 18:28
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can we go back to laughing at the pumpkin man?
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Apr 5, 2018 18:29
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Lol Dems are +10 on the Generic Ballot in Nevada. Dean Heller should just quit now because he’s an utterly dead man waking. Are there any good House pickup opportunities in Nevada?
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Apr 5, 2018 18:29
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axeil posted:I don't think anyone (or not me at least) is arguing that American imperialism is okay, but rather that American-style imperialism (soft power, economic liberalism, free trade, etc.) causes less overall harm and suffering than every other empire's flavor of empire has because those usually involved conquest, ruthless exploitation of resources and autocracy/denial of human rights. There is nothing "soft" about American power. And I see that Glenn Greenwald derangement syndrome is still going on full force.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:30
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VitalSigns posted:I'm not even a communist at all lol. I also remember the time when I discovered that my middle-school history texts glossed over a lot of bad stuff.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:31
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joepinetree posted:There is nothing "soft" about American power. Compared to straight up invading/annexing places it sure is
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Apr 5, 2018 18:31
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FizFashizzle posted:A lot of it was exacerbated by Stalin's ridiculous paranoia, unrealistic quotas, suicidal push for industrialization, and...peculiar ideas about farming of the time. Stalin is intensely confusing to me because it's very unclear what ludicrious things he said and did he believed, and which he was using to consolidate power and eliminate opposition. Like with the show trials, the historical record veers between obvious awareness that the trials and the confessions elicited were utter nonsense, and actions that seem to indicate some level of belief in the confessions and conspiracies wrung out by the various iterations of the KGB. He definitely wasn't dumb. The most coherent explanation I can think of is that Stalin frequently acted as if his nonsense was true even where it wasn't necessary to pretend, because he needed it to be true and so it was a little bit of a cross between "I need this to be true, ergo it is true" and "I need this to be true, so I need to minimize the times I don't admit it was true even where I don't need to affirmatively lie." But at least some of it does seem to have been what he believed, like the fear of wreckers and the like. I mostly read Stalin's nonsense about that they must be hording food as something he knew was nonsense, but was a handy excuse to ignore the deaths and continue exports and collectivization.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:31
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I think the thing that makes me maddest about tankies is that their ridiculous equivocation puts reasonable people in the delicate position of explaining why the U.S.'s behavior, which has often been quite bad, is substantially less bad than Stalin, the British Empire, and the goddamn Nazis.
Ogmius815 fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Apr 5, 2018 |
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Apr 5, 2018 18:31
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The fact that we've come all this way and not mentioned the loving Indians or the Trail of Tears once is kind of staggering.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:31
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Marijuana posted:Thank you for proving my point for me. they are both bad friend, and given the same hegemony the US has, China would be as bad or worse
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Apr 5, 2018 18:32
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joepinetree posted:There is nothing "soft" about American power. It's an actual term to describe a manner of influence.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:32
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axeil posted:Compared to straight up invading/annexing places it sure is The US has done both of those things. In fact, it invaded two countries nearly simultaneously not even 20 years ago.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:32
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Shifty Pony posted:On the other hand I think he'd be really easy to bait into signing things by sticking in some flashy but meaningless provision that he can tweet about. You've gotta get him to sign it before people can get to him though, that's basically what Dems tried on DACA and got agreement right up until Miller was the last person to talk to him. He's so ignorant that you can't fool him for long because he doesn't remember things long enough.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:33
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kidkissinger posted:It was specifically the claim the US imperialism has been better than other imperialism which is patently false. That's not what happened.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:33
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evilweasel posted:Stalin is intensely confusing to me because it's very unclear what ludicrious things he said and did he believed, and which he was using to consolidate power and eliminate opposition. Like with the show trials, the historical record veers between obvious awareness that the trials and the confessions elicited were utter nonsense, and actions that seem to indicate some level of belief in the confessions and conspiracies wrung out by the various iterations of the KGB. He definitely wasn't dumb. The most coherent explanation I can think of is that Stalin frequently acted as if his nonsense was true even where it wasn't necessary to pretend, because he needed it to be true and so it was a little bit of a cross between "I need this to be true, ergo it is true" and "I need this to be true, so I need to minimize the times I don't admit it was true even where I don't need to affirmatively lie." But at least some of it does seem to have been what he believed, like the fear of wreckers and the like. An interesting historical what if: Trotsky dies at right about the same time as Lenin thus not creating a power struggle between Trotsky and Stalin after his death. I guess "Stalin dies in 1924" would also be interesting but far more speculative. My dad got me a biography on Stalin that covers 1924-1945 and I'm really excited to read it this summer when I have more free time. Boon posted:The fact that we've come all this way and not mentioned the loving Indians or the Trail of Tears once is kind of staggering. I mentioned the Trail of Tears a bunch of times 
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Apr 5, 2018 18:33
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Boon posted:The fact that we've come all this way and not mentioned the loving Indians or the Trail of Tears once is kind of staggering. I mentioned it at the beginning, it was my first response to the claim "the US is miles ahead of other empires in not committing crimes against humanity"
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Apr 5, 2018 18:34
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Boon posted:The fact that we've come all this way and not mentioned the loving Indians or the Trail of Tears once is kind of staggering. Uh it was mentioned. More than once.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:34
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Can't believe I missed the cool Satan page and it was clogged up with stupid bullshit from idiots smdh
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Apr 5, 2018 18:34
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Boon posted:The fact that we've come all this way and not mentioned the loving Indians or the Trail of Tears once is kind of staggering. it, uh, was mentioned axeil posted:I don't think anyone (or not me at least) is arguing that American imperialism is okay, but rather that American-style imperialism (soft power, economic liberalism, free trade, etc.) causes less overall harm and suffering than every other empire's flavor of empire has because those usually involved conquest, ruthless exploitation of resources and autocracy/denial of human rights.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:34
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Marijuana posted:The US has done both of those things. In fact, it invaded two countries nearly simultaneously not even 20 years ago. Interventions have been happening since the ancient world and neither country was annexed. Iraqis are not now Americans.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:34
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Boon posted:The fact that we've come all this way and not mentioned the loving Indians or the Trail of Tears once is kind of staggering. The Indians were mostly handled by the British and Spanish beforehand, it's why the slave trade boomed. The Trail of Tears of course is entirely on the US (And of course Jackson. gently caress Jackson)
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Apr 5, 2018 18:34
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Boon posted:The fact that we've come all this way and not mentioned the loving Indians or the Trail of Tears once is kind of staggering. the genocide of the native americans is basically an unspeakable crime and one that doesn't get nearly the attention it deserves. the reason it's not being brought up much though in this discussion is that nobody defends it but it's also not really part of the modern american empire (which is mostly a post-WWI thing, long after the native genocide was complete), which is the subject of the current discussion.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:35
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VitalSigns posted:I mentioned it at the beginning, it was my first response to the claim "the US is miles ahead of other empires in not committing crimes against humanity" Well, I now understand how Glenn Greenwalds happen
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Apr 5, 2018 18:35
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evilweasel posted:the dispute is mostly about if it was deliberately caused vs. collectivization causing a decline in food production and the USSR refusing to cease exports Also probably worth pointing out that there were probably a whole bunch of capitalists buying that food.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:35
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Arguing about how it could be worse is dumb and pointless because it could always be true and it's still currently poo poo so why not worry more about making it not poo poo instead of trying to argue that "Well it could be worse!!!! So please stop saying we're bad!" Even in the best of faith it's pointlessly trying to shift blame and attention to....save pride I guess? I mean this is an argument we probably should have because a lot of the #Resistance people and liberals in this thread have done a lot of cheer leading for truly awful people simply because Trump was little rude to them (See: Jame Comey). There's a large undercurrent in the modern politics at the moment for the Democrat supporters to white wash really bad poo poo and are VERY eager to jump on the whole "Being the party of Supporting America's hosed up security state" because Trump has been 'disrespectful' to a few head of departments (who, by the fact that they were the head of these groups have overseen and approves some heinous poo poo). Okay sure, I'll assume your historical fiction is correct that a world in which Russia somehow was the world expanding empire that the USA is and we weren't what we are would be worse. Now how does that change or excuse anything? ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Apr 5, 2018 |
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Apr 5, 2018 18:35
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Deteriorata posted:I also remember the time when I discovered that my middle-school history texts glossed over a lot of bad stuff. It's not that, it's the fact that people inevitably use this glossed-over version of history to support ongoing US imperialism because it's neutral or good for the world, viz WoodrowSkillson posted:they are both bad friend, and given the same hegemony the US has, China would be as bad or worse
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Apr 5, 2018 18:35
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theflyingorc posted:I don't really have a strong opinion, but I SUSPECT that US global actions are minimally less terrible than previous empires and I think that your use of "patently" isn't warranted. I'm actually super curious to see whether Chinese economic imperialism winds up being a less inhumane model than its predecessors (us and Britain, mostly). It's not like they haven't learned some lessons. please ignore xinjiang and Tibet, those are just perfectly normal territorial expansion instead
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Apr 5, 2018 18:35
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Hail Santa.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:35
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How about the time the continent of Europe was so awful, cruel, and stupid that they started a massive war that pulled in the whole world and killed millions of people needlessly. Then a couple of years they repeated it again.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:36
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Zore posted:it, uh, was mentioned Shimrra Jamaane posted:Uh it was mentioned. More than once. VitalSigns posted:I mentioned it at the beginning, it was my first response to the claim "the US is miles ahead of other empires in not committing crimes against humanity" axeil posted:I mentioned the Trail of Tears a bunch of times  Well goddamnit, I apologize.
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Apr 5, 2018 18:36
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VitalSigns posted:It's not that, it's the fact that people inevitably use this glossed-over version of history to support ongoing US imperialism because it's neutral or good for the world, viz you have shown a staggering ignorance of history so please go lecture about something else
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Apr 5, 2018 18:36
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OddObserver posted:Also probably worth pointing out that there were probably a whole bunch of capitalists buying that food. yeah but the communists (local and in the ussr) were busy telling the world that all those stories of a famine in the ukraine were a complete lie, so it's a little hard to shift the blame to the capitalists on that one it's not clear to me how well known the famine was outside the ussr until after it was over
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Apr 5, 2018 18:36
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I'm actually super curious to see whether Chinese economic imperialism winds up being a less inhumane model than its predecessors (us and Britain, mostly). It's not like they haven't learned some lessons. Doesn't a fair amount of the Chinese 'Foreign Investment' into Sub-Sahara Africa basically amount to resource extraction?
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Apr 5, 2018 18:37
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evilweasel posted:the genocide of the native americans is basically an unspeakable crime and one that doesn't get nearly the attention it deserves. the reason it's not being brought up much though in this discussion is that nobody defends it but it's also not really part of the modern american empire (which is mostly a post-WWI thing, long after the native genocide was complete), which is the subject of the current discussion. It's funny how unlike every other empire, the US gets a "mulligan" on genocide because it happened so long ago get over gosh. Anyway have I mentioned the Persian Empire invaded the Levant so that totally justifies the US doing it because someone else was Just As Bad thousands of years ago?
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Apr 5, 2018 18:37
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Dissidents will be shot!
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Apr 5, 2018 18:37
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VitalSigns posted:I'm not even a communist at all lol. To be fair. As a European. In my opinion. No people in the world criticise their own government as vehemently as Americans do. American citizens and organizations pretty much spearhead every single effort to call out the US government on any and all evil poo poo it does. Sure they just have some very loud people on the opposite side of the spectrum but Americas greatest critic remains itself. evilweasel posted:yeah but the communists (local and in the ussr) were busy telling the world that all those stories of a famine in the ukraine were a complete lie, so it's a little hard to shift the blame to the capitalists on that one And what's worse. The whole west bought it. The west ate all of it. Even the show trials where people were on trial for their lives. Confessing to ridiculous plots to assassinate Stalin with half the Kremlin staff in on the plot. The only evidence against them was their own confessions yet these confessions were a result of the overwhelming evidence against them in the first place. And the western observers ate all of it. Katt fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Apr 5, 2018 |
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Apr 5, 2018 18:37
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VitalSigns posted:It's not that, it's the fact that people inevitably use this glossed-over version of history to support ongoing US imperialism because it's neutral or good for the world, viz It is important that we hang the US for everything it has done in it's entire history, whereas, conveniently, Russia and China only started doing bad things recently, and didn't exist at all before WW1
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Apr 5, 2018 18:38
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Interventions have been happening since the ancient world and neither country was annexed. Iraqis are not now Americans. Sorry, I guess I should have said, "invaded with plans to permanently occupy those countries with mercenary armies."
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Apr 5, 2018 18:38
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