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gucci bane posted:I wouldn't be so sure about the Kevin Rudd inability narrative. It is very convenient that all everyone talks about is his 'micromanaging' and not the carbon tax. That's because it was implemented by Gillard, not Rudd, you fuckin idiot
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Apr 9, 2018 04:58
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Can't even tell which Labor leader had poorly sold policies mister speaker
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Apr 9, 2018 04:59
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There's a reason they call it Relevance Deprivation Syndrome, PMs have never understood why people turn on them. Rudd and Abbott are more alike than is comfortable for anyone watching politics. Howard still meddles, think about how long that shadow is on the LNP. Actually, I'm wondering how strong that generational divide is getting in the federal party, just how far will the Patersons et. al. go to differentiate themselves from a party on autopilot for 11 years?
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Apr 9, 2018 05:17
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ewe2 posted:There's a reason they call it Relevance Deprivation Syndrome, PMs have never understood why people turn on them. Rudd and Abbott are more alike than is comfortable for anyone watching politics. Howard still meddles, think about how long that shadow is on the LNP. Actually, I'm wondering how strong that generational divide is getting in the federal party, just how far will the Patersons et. al. go to differentiate themselves from a party on autopilot for 11 years? The only young blood getting preselected for federal seats now are the True Believers, whom to a letter either worship Howard, or wish he'd gone further. Patterson is every bit as lovely as Howard. Hastie's another example. All of the recent turnover has put lunatic young lib shitheads in seats - and from what I understand is going on in that little cesspit, it's only getting worse. This started under Howard and it's been going on ever since. You have a handful of 'moderates' under 50, like Frydenberg and Pyne, but they're only there because they're weasley types who will tie their own mother to the tracks for a leg up. They don't actually give a gently caress about any of the things that young people probably give a gently caress about, like not killing the planet, or not letting housing become a giant ponzi scheme.
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Apr 9, 2018 05:27
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Teddybear posted:So is Turnbull getting turfed or nah? Nah - yet another leadership change would gently caress them sideways in the polls, and there's no real alternative leader anyway.
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Apr 9, 2018 05:33
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NationBuilder has gone down lmao
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Apr 9, 2018 05:42
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Teddybear posted:So is Turnbull getting turfed or nah?
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Apr 9, 2018 06:00
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bell jar posted:* Long overdue and severely short of assisting people in poverty Okay some of these things were extremely necessary, or not as good as they can be. Sure. But are you actually trying to argue that making a taxation system more progressive is more centrist than it is left? Or do you think I'm saying Labor couldn't possibly be any more left or something? Honestly don't get it. Something being badly planned with poor messaging isn't leftist you say?  I mean you do you, but I'm a member of the Greens party, so clearly I don't think not having your stated policies implemented makes your party centrist. The idea that Labor's left wing has disappeared since booting Rudd is dumb. Either it never existed, or it is getting stronger.
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Apr 9, 2018 06:02
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Breaking newsTasmanian man Astro Labe is sentenced to six months' jail for headbutting Tony Abbott Free Astro Labe
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Apr 9, 2018 06:03
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Gentleman Baller posted:Okay some of these things were extremely necessary, or not as good as they can be. Sure. But are you actually trying to argue that making a taxation system more progressive is more centrist than it is left? Moving something from the right to the center, is indeed centrist, yes Just because something's left of something else, doesn't make it actually left
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Apr 9, 2018 06:05
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If I recall Victoria and Queensland are Labor Left majority states and NSW is some sort of Tory hellscape
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Apr 9, 2018 06:05
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bell jar posted:Moving something from the right to the center, is indeed centrist, yes I mean this is really irrelevant to my point but I'm curious about your opinion here; Is there a level of progressive taxation that isn't centrist? Edit: Or wealth redistribution in general?
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Apr 9, 2018 06:11
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Gentleman Baller posted:I mean this is really irrelevant to my point but I'm curious about your opinion here; Is there a level of progressive taxation that isn't centrist? 100% taxation over certain thresholds for income tax would be a good place to start
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Apr 9, 2018 06:13
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Or actually making an effort to tackle poverty rather than just upping the level of desolation from "on the streets" to "only one thing going from from being on the streets".
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Apr 9, 2018 06:19
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bell jar posted:100% taxation over certain thresholds for income tax would be a good place to start Okay. I mainly asked because I wanted to avoid dumb as poo poo conversations in the future but I'm not sure if shifting my personal overton window so the Greens party has a centrist economic policy is a good way to do that, but gently caress hey whatever I'll genuinely give it a go.
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Apr 9, 2018 06:19
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Or better yet when it comes to funding to address poverty: Right: Fend for themselves, no funding Centre: Minimum funding required to keep society functional, maintenance of status quo Left: Sufficient funding to provide opportunity to escape intergenerational poverty Labor has very much been increase funding to the level to maintain status quo and no further, while the LNP has been hold funding at current levels and don't index for a net effect of reduced funding (when they aren't outright cutting). Neither party is making a good faith effort in welfare to let people escape poverty by having enough money to survive as well as enough time to apply for work (eg. centrelink reporting requirements, work for the dole, etc.) If you think the greens are immune to having centrist economic policies then I don't know what to tell you. The greens aren't a perfect bastion of leftism and I think you should moderate your expectations if you think they are.
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Apr 9, 2018 06:25
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Gentleman Baller posted:Okay. I mainly asked because I wanted to avoid dumb as poo poo conversations in the future but I'm not sure if shifting my personal overton window so the Greens party has a centrist economic policy is a good way to do that, but gently caress hey whatever I'll genuinely give it a go. The thing you'll tend to find with (little l) liberals vs conservatives is that liberals will try and get things through in an incremental fashion, while when conservatives come in they tend to just fuckin bulldoze incremental accomplishments and ramrod their own ideas through. So you end up with a set of policies that slowly creep right over time, as they can only incrementally fix the poo poo little by little. If you want a leftist policy, you need to have something that will ram that overton window way the gently caress over to the left, not just claw and grab back to the left in a piecemeal way. The Greens aren't a hard left party, in their own interests (getting more votes, getting more money, getting more seats) they need to have centrist policies, otherwise its easy for people to dismiss them as leftie latte sippers. Don't mistake yourself - Greens economic policy is absolutely centrist.
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Apr 9, 2018 06:48
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MiniSune posted:Fun fact: some fibre installs were as little as 1500, but the government refused to accept an invoice for anything less than 4.5k otherwise the whole "FTTN cheapah" was undermined. source please
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Apr 9, 2018 06:51
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What about the glorious Greens CEOs monetising welfare services though? What about those heroes of socialism?
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Apr 9, 2018 06:54
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hooman posted:Or better yet when it comes to funding to address poverty: I mean, I agree with literally all of this within the scope of addressing poverty. But if, like me, you're defining left wing here as economic policies that help escape inter-generational poverty, then surely, surely things like making taxation more progressive and starting the NDIS are 'more left wing' than explicitly not doing those things?
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Apr 9, 2018 06:55
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Decks out for Astro Labe
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Apr 9, 2018 06:58
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Come on tones, where are you. Very disappointed. This was meant to be your day to just go fuckin apeshit on every media platform that would put a mic in front of you
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Apr 9, 2018 07:13
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Gentleman Baller posted:I mean, I agree with literally all of this within the scope of addressing poverty. The difference I'd call between centrist and left is that the centrist would take the steps necessary to undo the damage done by years of LNP rule, in order to restore things towards a status quo, taking enough action to prevent the starving in the streets and do some things to address income inequality whereas a strong left policy wouldn't be a case of "undo the damage' but actually go further and take a real stance on progressive taxation and bringing people out of poverty. Maybe that's splitting hairs, but I was very disappointed with the welfare and centrelink policies of Gillard.
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Apr 9, 2018 07:17
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aejix posted:Come on tones, where are you. Very disappointed. This was meant to be your day to just go fuckin apeshit on every media platform that would put a mic in front of you He doesn't want the leadership back, he just wanted to snipe Turnbull to death with the rest of the right to hurt the moderate Liberals and mission accomplished.
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Apr 9, 2018 07:27
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aejix posted:Come on tones, where are you. Very disappointed. This was meant to be your day to just go fuckin apeshit on every media platform that would put a mic in front of you 
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Apr 9, 2018 07:35
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Gentleman Baller posted:But if, like me, you're defining left wing here as economic policies that help escape inter-generational poverty, then surely, surely things like making taxation more progressive and starting the NDIS are 'more left wing' than explicitly not doing those things? Sure they're 'more left wing' than the status quo, but that doesn't make the policies, in of themselves, left wing. If you assume for a moment that there is a single spectrum in politics, LEFT to RIGHT (say 0 to 100), if you chose a position of 85 (so, pretty far right), anything lower than 85 would be 'more left wing' than the status quo, 85. Imagine there's three parties, one wants to move the status quo to 90, one wants to move it to 70, and one wants to move it to 25. The party for 90 would be a right-wing one, the party for 25 would be radical-left, and the party for 70 would be a centrist party despite it being left of the status quo. For the examples you've mentioned - making taxation more progressive - sure it's leftist in theory, but the nuances of its implementation determine whether or not it is actually left/centrist policy. Raising the tax free threshold to $18k looks good on paper, until you realise that people on the poverty line are making $22k on average, so it doesn't really help these folks much except for a slightly larger payday once a year at tax time. If those taxes don't actually go towards things like welfare or healthcare, or making life better for the people the left are supposed to care for, then it can't really be considered a leftist policy. If you get progressive income tax to cover the write off for corporations, what's the point? Starting the NDIS again plays into the centrist mindset - we can't just have a healthcare system that makes these things universally free for people in pain, we need to have a market and have it means tested, which means that all the people who need the help are going to be dealing with DHS, which most of these people are already doing via Centrelink, which is its own loving nightmare, to go and prove to some arbiter that they're in pain enough to have their problems covered. If you're means testing people, people in need are going to be left out. A leftist health policy would be universal, and subsidised (if not covered) by the state. If people are going to go left, go actually left. If all parties are focused on is 'undoing' what the conservatives have done, instead of proposing something new, or different, people just aren't going to give a gently caress and it isn't going to get done.
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Apr 9, 2018 08:22
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Like, you don't need a disability insurance scheme when healthcare is provided without charge. There's no loss to insure against. (before you all jump on me about not having an income if they can't work, in my socialist utopia ubi is real, and strong, and my friend)
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Apr 9, 2018 08:25
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Anidav posted:NSW is ... hellscape Can confirm, I am being held in NSW against my will
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Apr 9, 2018 08:34
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aejix posted:Come on tones, where are you. Very disappointed. This was meant to be your day to just go fuckin apeshit on every media platform that would put a mic in front of you
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Apr 9, 2018 08:41
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bell jar posted:For the examples you've mentioned - making taxation more progressive - sure it's leftist in theory, but the nuances of its implementation determine whether or not it is actually left/centrist policy. Raising the tax free threshold to $18k looks good on paper, until you realise that people on the poverty line are making $22k on average, so it doesn't really help these folks much except for a slightly larger payday once a year at tax time. If those taxes don't actually go towards things like welfare or healthcare, or making life better for the people the left are supposed to care for, then it can't really be considered a leftist policy. If you get progressive income tax to cover the write off for corporations, what's the point? Okay sure, but the point in this situation was partially to give an extra $600 / year to people making $20k / year, for example. And for the working poor, it wasn't a lump sum unless their employers didn't fix their contributions. I think we both agree that it isn't nearly adequate and UBI would be tops. If we don't agree that giving money to the working poor is a left wing goal, or progressive taxation is a left wing means of reaching that goal, or even that those two things make it a left wing policy then I hope we can at least agree to disagree.
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Apr 9, 2018 09:35
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https://twitter.com/leighsales/status/983264037994561537
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Apr 9, 2018 10:02
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Gentleman Baller posted:If we don't agree that giving money to the working poor is a left wing goal, or progressive taxation is a left wing means of reaching that goal, or even that those two things make it a left wing policy then I hope we can at least agree to disagree. Is giving $600 a year to poors left wing? What planet do you live on?
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Apr 9, 2018 10:09
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Oh jee whiz mistah this $12 a week sure is helping me get out of intergenerational debt. Thank god they used progressive taxation to help me
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Apr 9, 2018 10:11
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Don Dongington posted:
I'm talking relative to their little world, not the real one. I didn't they weren't lovely, I said they're a different generation, and from what I hear none of them were terribly pleased with the Monash Group debacle and I wondered just how far that disenchantment may go. Paterson is an idealistic neoliberal, of course he's useless. But he's still going to look at the Cabinet and say "they have to go, this is all their fault". Christian Porter is quietly rubbing his hands saying "at last at last it begins", god knows what he wants to do. Actually I do, far worse austerity for the 99%. They're going to do the rebuilding and the deadwood-clearing and I want to know what they think is wrong with the party and how they're going to "fix" it. Because I think a few MP's are going to quietly retire by the next election. There's going to be a lot of sulking and attempts to preserve what power they have, and it's the reaction to that I'm interested in.
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Apr 9, 2018 10:13
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missing the point completely.
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I'm so glad that those in the top bracket have to pay slightly more in order to cover the gap left by reducing corporate tax, also my wages are stagnant and i'm casually employed but hooray for tiered taxes
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Apr 9, 2018 10:13
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bell jar posted:Is giving $600 a year to poors left wing? What planet do you live on? Uh, yeah I feel that decreasing poverty is a left wing goal, even if it doesn't eliminate all inter-generational debt or whatever. I'd ask you what 'number' you'd want for it to be considered left wing, if you feel you have to define it that way, but last time we went down that road you talked about an upper limit on wealth being the 'start' of left wing economic policy. This conversation is dumb I'm sorry thread.
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Apr 9, 2018 10:26
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bell jar posted:I'm so glad that those in the top bracket have to pay slightly more in order to cover the gap left by reducing corporate tax, also my wages are stagnant and i'm casually employed but hooray for tiered taxes Pretty sure they're not paying slightly more than you, sport.
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Apr 9, 2018 10:27
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bell jar posted:Oh jee whiz mistah this $12 a week sure is helping me get out of intergenerational debt. Thank god they used progressive taxation to help me full capitalism now, we get it already
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Apr 9, 2018 10:35
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A particularly lazy "yeah nah" on UBI Seems he couldn't even be arsed to summarize one of his key sources properly. If the tax system is so bloody amazing, how come government revenue is way down and large corporations pay nothing?
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Apr 9, 2018 10:38
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Gentleman Baller posted:Uh, yeah I feel that decreasing poverty is a left wing goal, even if it doesn't eliminate all inter-generational debt or whatever. please explain how giving someone $600 decreases poverty, please explain why someone should have unlimited wealth
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Apr 9, 2018 10:39
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