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It was a lovely thing that was done, but at least the Nazi's didn't get boats to sacrifice even more lives in that hilarious attempt at an invasion. It didn't help British and French post war relations once the Nazi's were dealt with that is for sure.
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Apr 10, 2018 15:17
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slothrop posted:God it just seems like such a gently caress up from start to finish. In saying that, my only knowledge of it comes from wikipedia. My take is that it was a huge breakdown of communication and probably some I think there were some problems with Admiral Darlan not communicating to his subordinates the British offer of relocating the fleet to the Carribean. I read something on this a while ago when reading about the war as a whole, the whole thing was pretty messy. The British set a deadline for the French to respond with their surrender and let it go over twice or thrice if I recall, then the whole thing went bad when they got word that a squadron of French ships was moving in, someone made an aggressive move and then everything just turned into pandemonium. It supposedly did alot to reassure FDR's faith in Britain's will to fight on and go to any lengths though, particularly after Churchill had tried to guilt him into intervening by saying that Britain might not be able to withstand Germany forever and that someone else might seek peace with Hitler and that the Royal Navy might end up in the hand of the nazis, to which FDR suggested and kept pushing Churchill to move the fleet to Canada.
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Apr 10, 2018 15:23
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slothrop posted:I'm a little surprised that Mers-el-Kebir isn't used by wehraboos as a "but they were as bad not worse" argument Wehraboos study history beyond the statistics of the Tiger tank's gun? Since when?
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Apr 10, 2018 15:24
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A heavy shell hitting an armored ship is just about the most  thing
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Apr 10, 2018 15:24
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9xOp8z2Q-w&feature=youtu.be&t=8m42s
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Apr 10, 2018 15:44
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frankenfreak posted:How have you never seen that before? Serious question: where did you first / last come across that? I have no idea where / on what occasion I should have seen this previously, it seems hella obscure, I have never heard that guy's name before, and I'm not a historian.
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Apr 10, 2018 15:56
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I know the French really didn't see their defeat coming, but you'd think they could have sent out a message saying "EVERYBODY IN THE FRENCH NAVY - we are defeated, our preference is that you join the Allies but you gotta make up your own mind about these things. AVENGE US"
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Apr 10, 2018 16:33
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things were like, a little bit chaotic during the Fall of France
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Apr 10, 2018 16:36
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On top of which a lot of French officers were really unhappy with the Brits even before Mers-el-Kebir, and the Petain government had at least a veneer of legitimacy. Most French personnel who had escaped the fall of France chose to be repatriated rather than fight on. There was never really any official effort to evacuate military assets; what did occur was ad hoc, local, and small scale. The Free French started as much more symbol than reality, especially in comparison to the Poles.
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Apr 10, 2018 16:53
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13th KRRC War Diary, 10th Apr 1918 posted:At 4.30 a.m. news was received from Bgde. that the Boche was expected to attack. Precautionary measures were taken. Everyone stood-to, but no attack took place.
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Apr 10, 2018 16:54
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I don't think the British fears of the Germans pinching the French fleet (by force if necessary) were necessarily unfounded, either - in fact they attempted to do just that, albeit unsuccessfully, in 1942. I don't think they could have ignored the question of the French Navy forever, at any rate.
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Apr 10, 2018 17:09
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I've never understood why the French navy didn't just sail straight to Southampton and enthusiastically volunteer their services.
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Apr 10, 2018 17:13
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Soup Inspector posted:I don't think the British fears of the Germans pinching the French fleet (by force if necessary) were necessarily unfounded, either - in fact they attempted to do just that, albeit unsuccessfully, in 1942. I don't think they could have ignored the question of the French Navy forever, at any rate. From that article: quote:Officers of the battleship Provence and the seaplane carrier Commandant Teste managed to delay German officers with small talk until their ships were completely sunk. That sounds like something from one of the lost episodes of 'Allo 'Allo.
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Apr 10, 2018 17:15
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bewbies posted:I've never understood why the French navy didn't just sail straight to Southampton and enthusiastically volunteer their services. Because is wasn't yet clear that France was going to be indefinitely occupied and that thid would become WW2 instead of the Franco-prussian war
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Apr 10, 2018 17:17
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Possibly controversial chat, but would you consider the United States Navy of 1812 to be a blue water navy, or a brown/green(?) water navy? I'd argue that while the US did do some force projection and their ships presumably ocean sea worthy, they aren't at the level of the Royal Navy or France and can't defend far flung interests or maintain consistent overseas naval deployments. Others are arguing that because the US frigates are capable of traveling overseas and mostly fought out of sight of the shores, they are blue water; as well as statements to the effect of "They weren't fighting on the potomac rivers/lakes, ergo they aren't a brown water navy".
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Apr 10, 2018 17:19
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I expect that at first most French people expected their loss to result in the war ending as Britain coming to peace terms, some territory changing hands and reparations. Not full on oppressive occupation.
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Apr 10, 2018 17:21
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:full on oppressive occupation. also the dirty secret of france is that a lot of them were ok with this, far more than postwar narratives claimed
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Apr 10, 2018 17:28
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HEY GUNS posted:also the dirty secret of france is that a lot of them were ok with this, far more than postwar narratives claimed Wasn’t there a joke that in August 44 there wasn’t a single Frenchman who hadn’t been in the Resistance?
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Apr 10, 2018 17:30
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I expect that at first most French people expected their loss to result in the war ending as Britain coming to peace terms, some territory changing hands and reparations. Not full on oppressive occupation. Moreover if France peaces out and Britain continues to fight, that's Britain's problem. A lot of people are looking at this from a very rose tinted 'the Allies were the good guys, why wouldn't you join them in exile' perspective, but the reality for the majority was that when France's government surrendered, that was it. France was at peace, you stop fighting. Gaullist revisionism and shame result in everyone immediately adopting 'the Free French was always the legitimate government' narrative.
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Apr 10, 2018 17:39
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Because is wasn't yet clear that France was going to be indefinitely occupied and that thid would become WW2 instead of the Franco-prussian war Yeah it's this. These were still French sailors on French ships, and Catapult was a mere two weeks after the signing of the armistice. It was in no way clear that Britain and the Free French would actually fight on for five years, rather than there being some sort of peace accord. The option to sail to the French Caribbean might have been acceptable, but nobody told the folks at Mars el-Kabir about it.
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Apr 10, 2018 17:42
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Raenir Salazar posted:Possibly controversial chat, but would you consider the United States Navy of 1812 to be a blue water navy, or a brown/green(?) water navy? I don't think this question can be definitively answered because those terms aren't universally sharply-defined. It may be worth noting for your argumentation that the Barbary Wars had already entailed multi-year missions to the Mediterranean by US naval forces.
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Apr 10, 2018 17:45
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bewbies posted:I've never understood why the French navy didn't just sail straight to Southampton and enthusiastically volunteer their services. Because Vichy France was a thing and being in the navy doesn't make you immune to being a fascist? There was a real fear on the British side that the fleet would join the war on the wrong side, if you get my drift. There was similar uncertainty about which way French colonial troops in Africa would go. Would have made allied landings in that part of North Africa a serious problem if they had chosen to stay loyal to the Vichy-regime.
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Apr 10, 2018 18:02
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It's not like the average French sailor knew that the Nazis were evil and as before the expectation was probably for a big indemnity and Alsace and Lorraine, in which case having the ships might be useful as a bargaining chip.
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Apr 10, 2018 18:03
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aphid_licker posted:Serious question: where did you first / last come across that? I have no idea where / on what occasion I should have seen this previously, it seems hella obscure, I have never heard that guy's name before, and I'm not a historian.  Cyrano4747 posted:I thought the bit about the drunk trying to order drinks was pretty decent in a dad joke sense.
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Apr 10, 2018 18:08
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bewbies posted:I've never understood why the French navy didn't just sail straight to Southampton and enthusiastically volunteer their services. "We won't die for Danzig."
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Apr 10, 2018 18:11
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 I feel like we already dealt with this issue at some point, I mean I get that history can be cyclical bu-  Oh come on. If Missourians start massacring Kansans again I'm moving to Canada
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Apr 10, 2018 18:14
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OpenlyEvilJello posted:I don't think this question can be definitively answered because those terms aren't universally sharply-defined. It may be worth noting for your argumentation that the Barbary Wars had already entailed multi-year missions to the Mediterranean by US naval forces. For example it makes more sense to call the US Navy of the 1860s a brown water navy, when it intentionally de-prioritized ocean going ships in favor of building up massive coastal and riverine force. Post-ACW it remains a brown water navy for a time despite policy re-orienting towards high seas simply because it took time for capability to catch up with policy - you could say its a brown/green water navy in the process of becoming a blue water one. The PLAN today is in a similar place - it's a brown/green water navy by capability that's shifting to blue water operations and is near (or potentially even has tipped over) the fuzzy dividing line. That's still true even if the USN would stomp all over them in any kind of fleet engagement.
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Apr 10, 2018 18:15
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zoux posted:
Jesse Kelly, whoever that is, is a straight-up loving idiot and I hate you by proxy for posting that poo poo.
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Apr 10, 2018 18:17
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Jesse Kelly, whoever that is, is a straight-up loving idiot and I hate you by proxy for posting that poo poo. He's a columnist for fringe right-wing rag *shuffles notes* The Federalist?
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Apr 10, 2018 18:18
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He is a former republican congressional candidate. Narrowly defeated when he ran for Rep Gifford's seat after she was shot in the face.
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Apr 10, 2018 18:19
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zoux posted:
Do it, you idiots. Do it. So we can do Reconstruction properly this time.
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Apr 10, 2018 18:20
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How'd that Succession thing work out the last time South Carolina tried it?
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Apr 10, 2018 18:21
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zoux posted:If Missourians start massacring Kansans again I'm
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Apr 10, 2018 18:21
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Cythereal posted:Do it, you idiots. Do it. So we can do Reconstruction properly this time. I like the way you think.
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Apr 10, 2018 18:21
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https://www.quora.com/Which-are-the-most-prestigious-journals-that-specialize-on-the-history-of-warquote:The state of military history, especially in the US, is pretty bad. Most of the 'new' military history is just social history pretending to be military history...
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Apr 10, 2018 18:23
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Can anyone recommend a book that gives a good overview on what lead up to the breakup of the USSR? I've browsed books on the subject a little bit, and it's really hard to find books that aren't either anticommunist gloating ("the USSR feel because communism is bad, you see  "), or tankie hand-wringing looking to pin blame somewhere.
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Apr 10, 2018 18:23
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Geisladisk posted:Can anyone recommend a book that gives a good overview on what lead up to the breakup of the USSR? I've browsed books on the subject a little bit, and it's really hard to find books that aren't either anticommunist gloating ("the USSR feel because communism is bad, you see Gorbachev: His Life and Times, maybe?
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Apr 10, 2018 18:26
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Libluini posted:There was similar uncertainty about which way French colonial troops in Africa would go. Would have made allied landings in that part of North Africa a serious problem if they had chosen to stay loyal to the Vichy-regime. I mean, they did . Operation Torch was the US/UK invasion of Vichy Algeria. There were about a thousand allied casualties from Vichy fire. Would have been a real poo poo show with the French navy still there. What they had left still sunk some destroyers and troop ships. feedmegin fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Apr 10, 2018 |
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Apr 10, 2018 18:28
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HEY GUNS posted:https://www.quora.com/Which-are-the-most-prestigious-journals-that-specialize-on-the-history-of-war From that post: quote:historians haven't even started to examine the official records from WWI/WWII. Wha...?
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Apr 10, 2018 18:30
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Kotkin’s Armageddon Averted my go to end of USSR book.
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Apr 10, 2018 18:31
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