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in judaism the sin of sodomy was considered to be the mistreatment of guests/foreigners. it was medieval christianity that took it to be a sin of lust, but it wasn’t considered to be strictly against men. i’m probably misremembering since it has been several years since i heard the “sin of sodom” lecture nearly weekly, but essentially the sin of sodom being seen as strictly about sex between men is a victorian innovation and the idea that only a certain kind of person being susceptible is a modernist take. it used to be thought that anyone could be tempted, and the sin could be anything from anal sex to mutual masturbation. basically the christian reading of sodom has changed along with social perception of sexual norms and the existence of gay people as a separate kind of person, and that the reading is generally foreign to rabbinical interpretation of sodom and gomorrah
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Apr 10, 2018 23:34
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To overly simplify, in the story of Sodom, part of the story has the men of Sodom try to rape the angels that come to get Lot. So, jumping forward to the Rabbinic period, and most of the Talmudists say that Sodom's biggest sin is that they're cruel to strangers and the poor. One of the stories in the Talmud is that there's this bridge into the city that they put a toll on, and this traveler won't pay it, so the guards beat him and arrest him. He tells the judge that he didn't cross the bridge, he swam the river, so the judge charges him double for avoiding the bridge tax, and then charges him more for the beating, saying that by beating him till he bled, they treated him medicinally, so he owes them a doctor's fee. The Talmud has another story about how a Sodomite woman was executed for giving food to starving beggar. However, in Alexandria, the Jewish philosopher Philo has a different take on the thing. Philo was a hellenized Jew, and one of his goals was to defend Judaism to non-Jews, and show that Judaism was comparable with Greek philosophy. One of the ways he did this was that he retold the stories of Abraham, of Moses, of Joshua, of Joseph, of Adam and Eve, and so on. And so in his work "On Abraham", he has his own description of the sins of Sodom. He said that Sodom's problem was that it was so rich, the Sodomites were giant gluttons, and figured they could do whatever they wanted, and ignore natural law. And, he said, what they wanted to do, was have a lot of sex: Philo posted:As men, being unable to bear discreetly a satiety of these things, get restive like cattle, and become stiff-necked, and discard the laws of nature, pursuing a great and intemperate indulgence of gluttony, and drinking, and unlawful connections; for not only did they go mad after women, and defile the marriage bed of others, but also those who were men lusted after one another, doing unseemly things, and not regarding or respecting their common nature, and though eager for children, they were convicted by having only an abortive offspring; but the conviction produced no advantage, since they were overcome by violent desire; and so, by degrees, the men became accustomed to be treated like women, and in this way engendered among themselves the disease of females, and intolerable evil; for they not only, as to effeminacy and delicacy, became like women in their persons, but they made also their souls most ignoble, corrupting in this way the whole race of man, as far as depended on them. Philo is, as far as I know, the first person I know to link Sodom to homosexual sex. Jumping ahead to the fifth century, Justinian reforms the Byzantine legal code, and makes homosexual sex a capital crime, and it's in the Code of Justinian that homosexuality is first referred to as "the sin of Sodom". Meanwhile, in the west, western ecclesiastical law picks up the term, and expands it to refer to all non-reproductive sex, regardless of the genders of the people involved, ranging from masturbation, to oral and anal sex.
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Apr 11, 2018 00:16
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It seems like the Old and New Testament have very different visions of Sodom's crime to me. There's several passages in the OT where it goes over Sodom's crimes and homosexuality isn't even mentioned as one of them.
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Apr 11, 2018 02:23
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 tias this is NOT okay
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Apr 11, 2018 03:14
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Cursed Image.
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Apr 11, 2018 03:55
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Curses are easily lifted by the application of cats. https://i.imgur.com/ibJCAz5.mp4
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Apr 11, 2018 04:10
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See also Onanism, despite the fact that Onan's sin was not jerking it. I think most of these terms are flexible - invoke the Bible's authority in your invective against whatever sexual thing, no matter how confused the textual basis.
Numerical Anxiety fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Apr 11, 2018 |
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Apr 11, 2018 04:24
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Genesis 19 has the people wanting to rape the angels visiting Lot, who appear to be men. It just gets more uncomfortable from there. also, a good proportion of gay men aren't even really into anal sex
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Apr 11, 2018 04:27
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Pellisworth posted:also, a good proportion of gay men aren't even really into anal sex Still, I think in the future I'll also refer to that verse from Ezekiel. That God pronounced judgment on Sodom in part because they didn't take care of their sick and needy despite being blessed with abundance. https://i.imgur.com/2Q9Nl9C.gifv
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Apr 11, 2018 04:29
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this is weird: lot of young orthodox in the past ten years. New converts? 
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Apr 11, 2018 05:02
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we got a lotta Eastern European and African immigrants all up here in Minnesota, i think migration might be part of it also the story of Sodom, the Hebrew verb "to know" which is often claimed to mean sexually, that verb is used a zillion times in the Hebrew scriptures and only a tiny percentage of the time it's meant sexually
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Apr 11, 2018 05:26
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participating in calvinist FB groups online is bad for your soul, be warned my marker of "haha this is a fun argument to have, reasonable and friendly discourse" is set so high that I drove one dude into tears 
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Apr 11, 2018 05:26
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probably some combination of converts and immigrants, but i would assume immigration is a larger factor actually has anyone done a study on conversion patterns of young people? like, demographics, reasons for converting away, reasons for converting towards, stuff like that. probably not, that's a really broad topic and would take years if not decades to put out. instead there's a bunch of piecemeal data on converts to atheism/buddhism/etc that focuses on small ethnic groups/age brackets/whatever. that kind of broad analysis would be really helpful for understanding the changing religious landscape in america but also seems like it would be a nightmare to structure and implement. you'd need so many grants, and good luck getting those with this administration
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Apr 11, 2018 06:09
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i think some of the big demographic studies by organizations like pew look into that stuff. no links handy rn tho
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Apr 11, 2018 06:21
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Lutha Mahtin posted:i think some of the big demographic studies by organizations like pew look into that stuff. no links handy rn tho Did pew also look at the seating arrangements in churches?
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Apr 11, 2018 07:44
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The Phlegmatist posted:
I.. what  what am I looking at?
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Apr 11, 2018 10:54
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A bust of Bast, I think
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Apr 11, 2018 11:00
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Take it up with the kemetics then. Folks are off the hook, they'll have to answer you
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Apr 11, 2018 11:02
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Senju Kannon posted:probably some combination of converts and immigrants, but i would assume immigration is a larger factor the SBC has done a few trying to figure out where all the young people vanish off to. I don't think there are any big cross-denominational studies aside from Pew, but Pew doesn't really look at why people are converting. SBC basically found that young people go to college and just peace out forever, but if you still attend church at 21 you're likely to be a member for life. e: they're kinda shook because this is the first time that SBC isn't growing in membership. I think some of it is churches just scraping the name Baptist off their sign and becoming non-denominational, but kids leaving forever and never coming back is a large part of it too. e2: CHRISTIAN INTELLECTUAL DOT COM i wanna live in whatever world these people live in where the SBC is some kind of revolutionary marxist denomination The Phlegmatist fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Apr 11, 2018 |
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Apr 11, 2018 13:03
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calvinists infiltrating african bible study groups on facebook is the best thing all year you're missing out if you're not in on this
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Apr 11, 2018 16:51
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you gonna spill the tea or just brag that you have tea
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Apr 11, 2018 17:49
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The Phlegmatist posted:calvinists infiltrating african bible study groups on facebook is the best thing all year screenshots rear end in a top hat, screenshots
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Apr 11, 2018 18:12
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HEY GUNS posted:screenshots rear end in a top hat, screenshots 
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Apr 11, 2018 18:24
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So, how do you all pray to avert disaster? All this war tension and craziness in the US of late is really wearing on me.
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Apr 11, 2018 23:55
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Night10194 posted:So, how do you all pray to avert disaster? All this war tension and craziness in the US of late is really wearing on me. Me too. My brother just deployed to Qatar last week, he's flight crew on B-1 bombers. Bombing ISIS? Cool, good. Bombing missions against Syrian forces or heaven forbid Iran... not cool. I pray every night for those in harm's way (on all sides of the conflict, including civilians), for wisdom of leaders, and for peace. I'd also encourage you to contact your elected representatives, preferably by phone, and tell them how you feel. Even if they don't actually hear the message, a staffer will record that Night10194 and Pellisworth (and however many others) called expressing concern about escalating conflict in the Middle East. Prayer helps, but it's also important to do some advocacy for peace and sanity where you can.
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Apr 12, 2018 00:10
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Night10194 posted:So, how do you all pray to avert disaster? All this war tension and craziness in the US of late is really wearing on me. 1. there's not gonna be a war 2. hail mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee
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Apr 12, 2018 00:11
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Night10194 posted:So, how do you all pray to avert disaster? All this war tension and craziness in the US of late is really wearing on me. "Let this cup pass over me, but ultimately it's not my will but yours that is done."
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Apr 12, 2018 00:17
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Night10194 posted:So, how do you all pray to avert disaster? All this war tension and craziness in the US of late is really wearing on me. Me and my children praying the St. Michael prayer every night with all of our Holy Family candles lit.
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Apr 12, 2018 00:20
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I find comfort in the fact that, if my country ends up nuked, I will be dead in less than a minute due to airburst/fireball. It is sad that the cold war came back and we don't get to enjoy life on the planet for longer though.
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Apr 12, 2018 00:21
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From the lightning and the tempest, O Lord, deliver us. From the scourge of the earthquake, O Lord, deliver us. From plague, famine, and war, O Lord, deliver us. From the place of ground zero, O Lord, deliver us. From the rain of the cobalt, O Lord, deliver us. From the rain of the strontium, O Lord, deliver us. From the fall of the cesium, O Lord, deliver us. From the curse of the Fallout, O Lord, deliver us. From the begetting of monsters, O Lord, deliver us. From the curse of the Misborn, O Lord deliver us.
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Apr 12, 2018 00:23
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Night10194 posted:So, how do you all pray to avert disaster? All this war tension and craziness in the US of late is really wearing on me. Sadly, I don't have a prayer to offer you other than anything you'd be familiar with. I feel the same though, and this has motivated me to get off my rear end and finally watch Tarkovsky's "The Sacrifice." "Starring Erland Josephson, it centers on a middle-aged intellectual who attempts to bargain with God to stop an impending nuclear holocaust."
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Apr 12, 2018 00:26
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This thread is the closest thing I have to a priest, sometimes. I'm a non-denominational universalist. I just don't have a religious community or church of my own, I've always struggled with prayer and anxiety, and the world in the last six months or so has made me afraid in ways I didn't know I could be afraid. I have no idea what the Lord's plan is, I just hope it is merciful and kind.
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Apr 12, 2018 00:30
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StashAugustine posted:From the lightning and the tempest, I recognize this. St. Leibowitz is one of Christianity's most important fictional saints.
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Apr 12, 2018 00:33
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Caufman posted:I recognize this. St. Leibowitz is one of Christianity's most important fictional saints. I was mentioning to a friend this morning I sometimes feel like we live in the 3rd act of Canticle for Leibowitz. My favorite novel, ever.
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Apr 12, 2018 00:33
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Night10194 posted:I was mentioning to a friend this morning I sometimes feel like we live in the 3rd act of Canticle for Leibowitz. It's frustrating not to know what kind of era we're truly living in, or what kind of story are we in. All I can advise is to strive to be cognizant of what you can do in the midst of uncertainty to give the ultimate fate its best chance of ending in the everlasting glory of God.
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Apr 12, 2018 00:45
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my dad said the recent kids march on Washington about guns reminded him of when he was in high school and people were demonstrating against Vietnam
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Apr 12, 2018 01:00
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HEY GUNS posted:this is weird: lot of young orthodox in the past ten years. New converts? Attrition.
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Apr 12, 2018 01:20
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did black lives matter remind him of the civil rights movement
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Apr 12, 2018 01:21
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probably. he has never had a high school class reunion because his was one of the first graduating classes in his town to be integrated 
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Apr 12, 2018 01:43
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Senju Kannon posted:did black lives matter remind him of the civil rights movement actually you will find that martin luther king was communist n- uh, whoremonger. also anyone in this thread is free to send me a friend request on FB and I'll show you sights unseen
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Apr 12, 2018 02:00
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