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Frond posted:For some reason people forget how bad McLaren has been since 2008 or so. I would argue 2004 is the latest the decline started. The MP4-19 is my personal bellwether.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:18
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I'd say it started after Senna left, with a few red herrings here and there.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:24
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The Kimoa Kid posted:The reality is that Ron and Whitmarsh (to a lesser extent) slowly ran the team into the ground over the course of like 15 years, and it’s easier to mock Brown et al if you ignore the true scale of their rebuilding efforts. Of course the funniest (and most accurate) way to frame the McLaren story is as a man who dominated F1 by reinventing the way you run an F1 team, only to stay too long and have newcomers do the exact same thing to him, but that takes more than an ounce of effort to realize. Also worth noting that this is Wenger exactly. Yeah but have you turned your monitor on?
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Apr 13, 2018 22:26
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The Mika years were really solid if scrappy. They just never got their poo poo together and had a team go through and iron out all the small issues which has plagued them ever since. Sort of ironic given Ron's OCD.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:29
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The Williams is probably a low midfield car at best but it really made me wonder about cars which were let down by a poor driver pairing. IMO an obvious one is Williams in 89/90 when they had Boutsen/Patrese, which is your classic double-B-driver lineup. I don't think it could have fought for the title in 1989 but it definitely could have in 1990, as ugly as the 1990 Williams is. I think Tambay-Arnoux for Ferrari in 1983 (which actually won the WCC) probably could have been improved on as well.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:30
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1500quidporsche posted:The Fabregas years were really solid if scrappy. They just never got their poo poo together and had a team go through and iron out all the small issues which has plagued them ever since. See how it works fuckin perfectly?
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Apr 13, 2018 22:31
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It all fell apart when they ditched Martin Brundle.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:31
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The Kimoa Kid posted:See how it works fuckin perfectly? Lol if you think 1500 has any clue what a Fabregas even is Impeach Wenger
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Apr 13, 2018 22:31
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Feels Villeneuve posted:The Williams is probably a low midfield car at best but it really made me wonder about cars which were let down by a poor driver pairing. The 90 car was a championship winner in the hands of someone like Prost or maybe even Mansell. That by far was the worst line up and that car had pace when one of the drivers randomly woke up and decided to put in a fast lap.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:33
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I think the general consensus on the 1983 Ferrari is that they would have won the drivers title if they had decided on a number-one driver but both Tambay and Arnoux have that not-quite-there quality to them compared to someone like Prost or even Piquet imo. There's also the 2003 McLaren which almost certainly would have benefited from someone other than David Coulthard to partner a really young Kimi Raikkonen.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:36
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Feels Villeneuve posted:The Williams is probably a low midfield car at best but it really made me wonder about cars which were let down by a poor driver pairing. I really wonder how good the FW12 would have been in '88 if it had it's Honda RA168E like intended...I've been watching '83 too and I'm inclined to agree - Arnoux was/is really loving good, but Tambay, while skilled, probably wasn't Ferrari material.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:36
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The Kimoa Kid posted:See how it works fuckin perfectly? McLaren and Häkkinen actually won trophies as opposed to Arsenal when Cesc was there, though.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:37
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Also during Paul Ricard '83 Ferrari blew 8 engines in practice.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:37
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Frond posted:I really wonder how good the FW12 would have been in '88 if it had it's Honda RA168E like intended...I've been watching '83 too and I'm inclined to agree - Arnoux was/is really loving good, but Tambay, while skilled, probably wasn't Ferrari material. 1988 was the year of people doing heroics with a Judd on both sides of the Atlantic funny enough, Bobby Rahal dragging the Truesports Judd (after getting blackballed for dallying with Ferrari in the offseason) to third in points with a Pocono 500 win is still underrated. 
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Apr 13, 2018 22:38
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1500quidporsche posted:The 90 car was a championship winner in the hands of someone like Prost or maybe even Mansell. That by far was the worst line up and that car had pace when one of the drivers randomly woke up and decided to put in a fast lap. Boutsen was a slow fast driver. Patrese also tended to randomly lack motivation during races - this was true for his whole career more or less.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:40
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Frond posted:I really wonder how good the FW12 would have been in '88 if it had it's Honda RA168E like intended...I've been watching '83 too and I'm inclined to agree - Arnoux was/is really loving good, but Tambay, while skilled, probably wasn't Ferrari material. They win it comfortably if Pironi didn't nearly die in 1982, I'm almost positive of this. The 1984 car was a true dog though.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:40
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Frond posted:Boutsen was a slow fast driver. Patrese also tended to randomly lack motivation during races - this was true for his whole career more or less. Boutsen winning the 1990 Hungarian GP because everyone behind got mad that they couldn't overtake and started crashing into each other more or less sums him up as a driver.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:40
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Warms my cockles that people still remember Thierry Boutsen 
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Apr 13, 2018 22:42
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Feels Villeneuve posted:1988 was the year of people doing heroics with a Judd on both sides of the Atlantic funny enough, Bobby Rahal dragging the Truesports Judd (after getting blackballed for dallying with Ferrari in the offseason) to third in points with a Pocono 500 win is still underrated. Yeah Bobby's '88 was really impressive. During 88-91 in CART if you didn't have a Chevy-Ilmor you were not going to win. Exceptions are Bobby and Teo Fabi's Porsche.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:42
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Slow fast driver? Hungarian GP winner? Reminds me of someone else...
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Apr 13, 2018 22:43
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Frond posted:Yeah Bobby's '88 was really impressive. During 88-91 in CART if you didn't have a Chevy-Ilmor you were not going to win. Exceptions are Bobby and Teo Fabi's Porsche. The Ilmor years were really foreshadowing what would eventually play a big part in killing CART - the engine makers having way too much power and playing politics.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:44
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Feels Villeneuve posted:They win it comfortably if Pironi didn't nearly die in 1982, I'm almost positive of this. The 1984 car was a true dog though. Ferrari/Pironi should have got the WDC in '82 - as much as I love Keke. I think the '84 car was bad because the design was just too drat old by that point.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:44
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The Kimoa Kid posted:Slow fast driver? Hungarian GP winner? Reminds me of someone else... Heikki drives in SuperGT now
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Apr 13, 2018 22:44
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Wirth1000 posted:Heikki drives in SuperGT now Super GT aka my heart
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Apr 13, 2018 22:46
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I'll add Al Unser Jr. to the "really loving good drivers doing amazing things in poor cars". He won 5 times in a March.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:48
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Feels Villeneuve posted:The Ilmor years were really foreshadowing what would eventually play a big part in killing CART - the engine makers having way too much power and playing politics. Pat Patrick should have known better...
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Apr 13, 2018 22:49
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Is super GT the new chibi GP?
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Apr 13, 2018 22:49
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Frond posted:I'll add Al Unser Jr. to the "really loving good drivers doing amazing things in poor cars". He won 5 times in a March. Watching 1998 and I forgot that even boozed up and driving those awful Penskes he'd still sometimes put in a random blinding performance before inevitably blowing up. He was good even though he sounded like he had an IQ of 80.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:51
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Chibi GP is Super Formula. Hiroaki Ishihura drives a Chibi Itasha.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:51
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Feels Villeneuve posted:Watching 1998 and I forgot that even boozed up and driving those awful Penskes he'd still sometimes put in a random blinding performance before inevitably blowing up. He was good even though he sounded like he had an IQ of 80. 1998-1999 is really sad because you could tell the PC-27 was crushing his soul. He's was a real talent, probably top 5 in the CART era. 1999 Penske is really drat weird. Flopping back and forth between the Lola and in house car, reverting to a single car team, hiring Tarso Marques and Alex Barron for some reason (although Gonchi was good).
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Apr 13, 2018 22:55
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The thing with 83 too was Brabham really came out of nowhere with their B spec car and started dominating. I don't think Renault or Ferrari expected Brabham to come on so strong.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:56
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh6Vviq8_Ek
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Apr 13, 2018 22:57
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The best "pure" CART drivers (i.e. came up in the CART era, not USAC-era guys like Sneva/Andretti/etc) were definitely Unser Jr, Rahal, and Michael Andretti, pick whatever order you want. Zanardi would get consideration if he had raced more than four seasons. I'm not counting Bourdais, much as I like him.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:58
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1500quidporsche posted:The thing with 83 too was Brabham really came out of nowhere with their B spec car and started dominating. I don't think Renault or Ferrari expected Brabham to come on so strong. The early car was also pretty promising if not reliable. The early BMW Turbo also had crippling lag, and it was really apparent on starts.
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Apr 13, 2018 22:59
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Alot of their really good results early on was on the back of good pitstops as well, Brabham were close to sub 10 seconds at the start of the year and Renault were closer to 20. I think Prost probably would've won 83 if they realised that was a major issue earlier on.
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Apr 13, 2018 23:03
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Feels Villeneuve posted:The best "pure" CART drivers (i.e. came up in the CART era, not USAC-era guys like Sneva/Andretti/etc) were definitely Unser Jr, Rahal, and Michael Andretti, pick whatever order you want. Zanardi would get consideration if he had raced more than four seasons. I'm not counting Bourdais, much as I like him. I'd say Mikey is the best, I'd throw Sullivan in there too. I dunno if you'd count Mears as a pure CART guy but he deserves a mention. De Ferran and Zanardi also kicked major rear end but like you said they didn't race for all that long.
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Apr 13, 2018 23:04
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Please watch the 1984 CART finale at the Caesars Palace parking lot circuit which has like 20 minutes of on track coverage due to being preempted by women's bodybuilding (???) multiple times and is also one of the most exciting CART races ever https://youtu.be/TRQg-5DHldU
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Apr 13, 2018 23:04
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1500quidporsche posted:Alot of their really good results early on was on the back of good pitstops as well, Brabham were close to sub 10 seconds at the start of the year and Renault were closer to 20. I think Prost probably would've won 83 if they realised that was a major issue earlier on. Renault's hiring of Cheever was really bizzare, and I like the guy too. But he's not somebody that can bring it home for a WCC. He was totally outclassed by Prost.
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Apr 13, 2018 23:05
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Frond posted:Renault's hiring of Cheever was really bizzare, and I like the guy too. But he's not somebody that can bring it home for a WCC. He was totally outclassed by Prost. I'm 100% convinced it's because they bought AMC six months beforehand and wanted something for US advertising.
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Apr 13, 2018 23:06
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Feels Villeneuve posted:Please watch the 1984 CART finale at the Caesars Palace parking lot circuit which has like 20 minutes of on track coverage due to being preempted by women's bodybuilding (???) multiple times and is also one of the most exciting CART races ever One of things CART was good at doing was putting on a good show even on the shittiest circuits imaginable.
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Apr 13, 2018 23:06
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