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sulla beat the dang game with every job but barbarian, ff5 is a paragon of job class design
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Apr 14, 2018 18:16
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morallyobjected posted:I mean, there are people who said that the Junction System was hard to figure out but that's not the game's fault I think there's something to be said for the game forcing you to figure out its main mechanics early on that's important. So many people playing FF13 played the way they normally play jRPGs without bothering with Stagger or switching all the time or whatever, until they ran straight into the brick wall of Doom at the very endgame. Which yes, they should have engaged the mechanics more, but the game should also have put that wall up earlier so the player learns that those things aren't really intended to be optional. Pureauthor fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Apr 14, 2018 |
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Apr 14, 2018 18:16
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morallyobjected posted:I mean, there are people who said that the Junction System was hard to figure out but that's not the game's fault Yeah but XIII spent a lot of time teaching you what your health bar was and how to select abilities (which you almost never want to actually do), it never really drills the idea that switching paradigms is almost the entirety of the battle system. Like, it teaches you how to do it sure, but not that switching them quickly is how you are meant to play the game. Also it implies Rav/Rav/Com is the way to go when that's a surefire way to take as long as possible.
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Apr 14, 2018 18:18
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gigglefeimer posted:It's a very shallow way of adding options. There's no simultaneous trade-off for the benefit - you grind for a while then you get this massive boost from then on. FF5's design suggests an overarching goal of "accumulate abilities throughout the game then assemble them all into your final team layout". The goal of a job system should be that you'll want to use all the jobs for their specific unique advantages, which X-2's design with being able to switch between jobs allows for. X-2's design suggests a more fluid approach, using what's best for a particular situation. Yo, I actually think the core of your argument is relatively well reasoned even if I don't agree with it and think you're completely off base trying to apply it to FF5, but I'd just like to point out that you're simultaneously claiming that a) grinding is unfun, and b) there's no trade-off for a benefit obtained through grinding. What if the grinding... is the trade-off? 
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Apr 14, 2018 18:47
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gigglefeimer posted:If you don't grind, you won't get many abilities Hey This is false? Like unless you're not going for treasures in a dungeon or are actively running from combat the dungeons in FFV are big enough and the encounter rate high enough that just playing through the game you get a good chuck of abilities on each character. No if you want to get all those same abilities on every character you'll have to grind but half the fun of Job systems is creating your own 'class' for each character and if you nee a specific thing you just swap to that class.
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Apr 14, 2018 18:59
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Cattail Prophet posted:Yo, I actually think the core of your argument is relatively well reasoned even if I don't agree with it and think you're completely off base trying to apply it to FF5, but I'd just like to point out that you're simultaneously claiming that a) grinding is unfun, and b) there's no trade-off for a benefit obtained through grinding. What if the grinding... is the trade-off? I said simultaneous trade-off, like having a powerful skillset linked to a weaker job. I understand that in FF5, you put up with using weaker jobs in order to pair the powerful skillsets with powerful jobs later on down the road (or you grind with the weaker jobs at certain points so that you never have to use them for the main game). I just personally don't like that as much, I prefer for all the jobs to be powerful in their own right. ZenMasterBullshit posted:Hey This is false? Like unless you're not going for treasures in a dungeon or are actively running from combat the dungeons in FFV are big enough and the encounter rate high enough that just playing through the game you get a good chuck of abilities on each character. No if you want to get all those same abilities on every character you'll have to grind but half the fun of Job systems is creating your own 'class' for each character and if you nee a specific thing you just swap to that class. This can definitely be argued, depending on how you play the game and what abilities you value.
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Apr 14, 2018 19:40
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gigglefeimer posted:I said simultaneous trade-off, like having a powerful skillset linked to a weaker job. I understand that in FF5, you put up with using weaker jobs in order to pair the powerful skillsets with powerful jobs later on down the road (or you grind with the weaker jobs at certain points so that you never have to use them for the main game). I just personally don't like that as much, I prefer for all the jobs to be powerful in their own right. 
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Apr 14, 2018 21:39
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gigglefeimer posted:It's a very shallow way of adding options. There's no simultaneous trade-off for the benefit - you grind for a while then you get this massive boost from then on. FF5's design suggests an overarching goal of "accumulate abilities throughout the game then assemble them all into your final team layout". The goal of a job system should be that you'll want to use all the jobs for their specific unique advantages, which X-2's design with being able to switch between jobs allows for. X-2's design suggests a more fluid approach, using what's best for a particular situation. well i'm glad you don't make games then. "you absolutely can't have this option because i don't like that job system" seems like an unnecessarily spiteful design decision
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Apr 14, 2018 21:44
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The White Dragon posted:well i'm glad you don't make games then. "you absolutely can't have this option because i don't like that job system" seems like an unnecessarily spiteful design decision When you generalize it like that it sounds silly, but I don't think what I actually said is all that controversial: "giving every job an invincibility button as a reward for spending hours grinding is a dumb idea"
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Apr 14, 2018 21:53
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gigglefeimer posted:When you generalize it like that it sounds silly, but I don't think what I actually said is all that controversial: "giving every job an invincibility button as a reward for spending hours grinding is a dumb idea" ok and what about players who think it's not a dumb idea, and their enjoyment is reduced by the removal of a pre-existing feature
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Apr 14, 2018 21:58
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The White Dragon posted:ok and what about players who think it's not a dumb idea, and their enjoyment is reduced by the removal of a pre-existing feature This is a really dumb thing to get stuck on, dude.
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Apr 14, 2018 22:01
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Apr 14, 2018 22:17
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Elephant Ambush posted:Your opinions on RPG design are dumb and wrong and your posts on the topic are nauseatingly boring.
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Apr 14, 2018 22:21
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So as someone who played FF8 through mostly just junctioning for stats and limit break cheesing, has anyone played through it mostly using spells for damage? Double/Triple being good for damage is obvious, but would there be any particular pitfalls I'm not thinking of/recalling? Of course card converting does silly poo poo real quick, but not abusing that amd implementing something like a 3-Draw limit per battle might make things vaguely interesting, I don't know.
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Apr 14, 2018 23:09
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Not really any pitfalls per se, but you would have to choose between using your good spells for junctioning or for casting, which really is the fundamental flaw of the whole system.
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Apr 14, 2018 23:15
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I like how quickly this went into name calling instead of any worthwhile discussion. Jrpgs were a mistake
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Apr 14, 2018 23:52
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Nasgate posted:I like how quickly this went into name calling instead of any worthwhile discussion. All of these games are bad and I hate them, but also I will defend their honor till the day I die
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Apr 14, 2018 23:56
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Not much worthwhile discussion can be had from "i don't like that rpgs don't stop me from grinding" so i prefer to call people idiots and lol.
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Apr 15, 2018 00:28
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Fister Roboto posted:Not much worthwhile discussion can be had from "i don't like that rpgs don't stop me from grinding" so i prefer to call people idiots and lol. If that's what you get out of this, then I suggest a forum closer to your reading level. Perhaps GBS.
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Apr 15, 2018 00:53
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Eight-Six posted:So as someone who played FF8 through mostly just junctioning for stats and limit break cheesing, has anyone played through it mostly using spells for damage? Double/Triple being good for damage is obvious, but would there be any particular pitfalls I'm not thinking of/recalling? Spells for combat is actually really good. Magic is strong and you don't need nearly as many spells to just blow stuff up then you do to junction the stat boosts you need to attack your way through the game. Limit Break spam probably trumps it, but Limit Break spam trumps everything and is so accessible in 8 that you almost have to go out of your way to not break the game with it. Of course, 8's real problem is that there's almost no way to empower yourself in the game without going out of your way somehow- even spellslinging generally requires taking a turn or two off every few fights to refresh your spell pack, even if you're running from most fights because there's almost no point to actually fighting 98% of random encounters in FFVIII, and you'll still want to get SOMETHING to junction- it just doesn't need to be a fat stack of powerful spells that you are better off throwing at your enemies.
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Apr 15, 2018 01:27
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Get ready for the hottest take in the universe: there are games with FF5-like job systems that have better-designed jobs than FF5, with a more balanced mixture of immediate and eventual utility.
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Apr 15, 2018 01:57
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Bongo Bill posted:Get ready for the hottest take in the universe: there are games with FF5-like job systems that have better-designed jobs than FF5, with a more balanced mixture of immediate and eventual utility. Honestly a big part of FFV's Job system's appeal to me is how abilities give you the stats needed to use them. Every other game with a Job system I've played slapping a magic command on a Fighter is useless because they don't get the stats for them.
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Apr 15, 2018 02:05
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Bongo Bill posted:Get ready for the hottest take in the universe: there are games with FF5-like job systems that have better-designed jobs than FF5, with a more balanced mixture of immediate and eventual utility. 
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Apr 15, 2018 02:09
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Bongo Bill posted:Get ready for the hottest take in the universe: there are games with FF5-like job systems that have better-designed jobs than FF5, with a more balanced mixture of immediate and eventual utility. I still think ps1 Tactic's had the best take on it in the series. The a2 was good because it gated the more powerful classes behind progression though. I wouldn't mind seeing a hybrid, where some abilities (and jobs but that isn't in ps1) are purchased similar to ps1 tactics, others similar to the advanced series, and others requiring you to clear a specific map or some other requirement.
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Apr 15, 2018 02:09
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Wanna play that IX ROMhack.
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Apr 15, 2018 02:09
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Bongo Bill posted:Get ready for the hottest take in the universe: there are games with FF5-like job systems that have better-designed jobs than FF5, with a more balanced mixture of immediate and eventual utility. Yeah, FF Dimensions was a great game
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Apr 15, 2018 02:10
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Personally, I think that in a casual playthrough Bravely Default's job system is better than FFV's, because it is very transparent about what you get for levelling up, and you get so much JP through regular gameplay that by the end you'll have something good. While in FFV it's possible, playing blind, to spread yourself a bit too thin and need to grind to make your way to something worthwhile. Where FFV's incarnation of the job system excels, I think, is in restricted and challenge runs. If you're trying everything, sure, it's easy to spread yourself too thin. But because everything is viable, there's barely any way to narrow down your focus and available tools that doesn't pay off somehow. In FFV, everything is good, it's just a matter of nurturing that. This is where Bravely Default's job system falters, because it is very stratified; most jobs offer something decent or usable, but you can't just go 'okay I'm gonna drill down on these miscellanous classes' because some of them just aren't good.
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Apr 15, 2018 02:15
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5,8, 15, and the MMO's are the only numbered games in the series I've never played.
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Apr 15, 2018 02:34
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The only Final Fantasy I never played is a good one.
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Apr 15, 2018 02:37
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What I like about FFV is that most of the unlocks are for cross-speccing later. Not all of them, you have the ultimate skills like dual-cast and X-fight, as well as some you get early on like Animals and Control and Mix, but for the most part if you switch someone into a class the worst you'll have is a single-classed character and like Cleretic said, all the classes in that game are good. Red Mage falters in the endgame, but other than that you're good. Knights have guard/cover, ninjas have dual-wield, mages get full spell access, et cetera, So if, say, I want to bring a black mage to a fight, I don't have to go grind up all their spells. The grind is an incidental thing for later value, not something I need to do *right now* before I can use the class.
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Apr 15, 2018 02:39
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Mega64 posted:The only Final Fantasy I never played is a good one. In that case 1 must be the best. Because it is short.
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Apr 15, 2018 02:42
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Let’s cover every single job because I love talking about FF5. Freelancer doesn’t even need the passives from mastered jobs, equipping all weapons and armor leads to a lot more flexibility than you’d think. Knight has awesome gear and stats, stays relevant the entire game. Black Mage rocks at single-target damage and also stays relevant throughout the game. Plus healing with Flame Rings. White Mages are unkillable. Their offense is bad so you definitely want another job for that until you get Holy, but their utterly insane defensive capabilities hold up through the entire game. Blue Mage is probably the most flexible job, with all sorts of damage, healing, and buffing capabilities, including a bunch of rarer status effects like Blind. Still always relevant. Thief is not as impressive since its offensive output is crap, but its high speed and !Steal offer some great utility, plus there’s a variety of great stuff to have throughout the game. Becomes better in the end game once you have the Chicken Knife since their agility and !Mug make a great match. Monk starts great and kinda tapers off a bit. They basically end up HP sponges and need an ability or weapon passive to stay competitive unless you really grind levels. Berserker is surprisingly useful at times, especially for having Instant Death access in W1, which trivializes quite a few bosses. Their other weapons are solid too, and of course their high offense and stamina keep them competitive. Mystic Knight has much versatility too, exploiting elemental weakness and being able to easily land status effects other jobs would fail at (like petrification). Their offense is weaker, but versatility makes up for it. Summoner basically alternates with Black Mage for strongest magic job during the game, but ultimately wins out thanks to Syldra. Nice utility as well. Time Mage can cheese anything with Quickleak, and even outside that they’ve got great utility throughout the game and even damage options with Meteor and rod breaking. Red Mage is another that starts strong and gets outdone by the end. Needs rebalancing for sure. Geomancer struggles to be relevant, since it has nothing beyond !Gaia, a rather lame ability to begin with, and a high magic stat it can’t really use or give to another job. Ninja of course has speed and weaponry, and even beyond Dual-Wield it has a guaranteed Flee command and !Throwing skeans can do big damage with enough magic power. Beastmaster kinda relies on a walkthrough but also have more options than most other jobs. Whips are a solid weapon choice too, and !Control is a tad underrated for regular encounters. Ranger has nice clutch healing with Nightingale and there’s a variety of bows for all sorts of situations and weaknesses. Bard needs offense, but they can shut down most normal encounters with Confuse or Stop, and later game their buffs get insane, only outclassed by... Chemist is bonkers. Even without !Mix, double item healing and !Drink would be powerful utility. !Mix is not even fair. Dragoon is alright. Not the biggest damage dealer, but one of the tankier classes thanks to !Jump. !Lancet isn’t bad utility either. Dancer is fragile and random, but Sword Dance is definitely not a bad proc to land, and Ribbons are alwas nice. Samurai is strong, evasive, and can do big damage with !Giltoss. Another reliable job class. So out of the 20 main jobs (excluding Freelancer/Mime), only three are really weak and replacable at the end game: Monk, Red Mage, and Geomancer. There’s definitely room for improvement, especially for a game that’s over 25 years old at this point, but it’s kinda insane to say that most jobs get outdated by the end game. That’s a complaint levied for FF3, not FF5. As I said earlier, the Wind Jobs are still as relevant at the end game as they are the beginning. Hell, you have all the main jobs 1/3 into the game. I can go into this more when it’s not late and I’m not typing this on a bluetooth keyboard.
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Apr 15, 2018 03:09
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The biggest complaint I have about V's job system, even though I love it, is jobs tend to have the Equip X abilities as their last abilities to learn. On one hand I know that the point of learning the Equip options last is so you learn more fun stuff to use in combination with other jobs. On the other hand, it makes jobs like Time Mage, as an example, fairly pointless to master since if you save it until endgame you're going to want everyone to be Mimes/Freelancers anyway, and they can already equip rods without the ability.
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Apr 15, 2018 03:17
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i play exclusively fiesta, and i feel like i'm in crazytown here because the way people describe playing the game is too alien to wrap my head around. grind out starred jobs for freelancer? when you have a time mage? god, why?
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Apr 15, 2018 03:48
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Mega64 posted:Let’s cover every single job because I love talking about FF5. this is a really dumb thing to get stuck on dude
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Apr 15, 2018 03:53
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yeah you can't write essays about good final fantasies here, only bad ones fortunately,
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Apr 15, 2018 03:57
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If Red Mage had Level 4 magic it'd honestly be viable all game IMO. Access to Shell, Esuna, Blink, and Bio would be enough.
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Apr 15, 2018 03:59
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I've always been baffled that doublecast wasn't the default Red Mage ability
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Apr 15, 2018 04:00
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Reiterpallasch posted:yeah you can't write essays about good final fantasies here, only bad ones I mean if you want I could go over Dissidia or Dimensions or FFXV or Type-0 or Crisis Core or FF7 or FF4: The Golden Years or that one doujin fan game where Tifa is an inflatable balloon of a woman who's most effective attack is squashing the enemy and Scarlett is for some reason a giantess, or how Aerith selling flowers in the slums is a metaphor for prostitution, or how S-E is secretly run by the Yakuza and how this connects to the gaming industry of Japan as a whole or how Hironobu Sakaguchi is a genius whose only blunder in his entire career was Spirits Within, or how FFXV and the Fabulous Cock Crystal series still share underlying fundamental themes and my conjecture about what the original plot of FFXV was gonna be, or how Cid is an outer dimensional entity that exists as multiple facets of one "Over-Cid" throughout the entire series and how it was planned out by the creators of FF2 way before they knew FF was gonna be a successful series.
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Apr 15, 2018 04:07
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i didn't want to know that gologle masturbates to inflation porn but now i do
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Apr 15, 2018 04:11
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