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Faust status: still a monster That tie clip 
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Apr 15, 2018 00:09
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Halfway through Mistborn. Really digging it so far!
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Apr 15, 2018 01:14
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Vogon Poetry Slam posted:Halfway through Mistborn. Boy are you in for a trip. Wait until you get that Sanderson addiction and have read every novel, short story, and novella he’s ever put out. They’re all great.
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Apr 15, 2018 01:22
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The other great thing about Verus is that he actually is quite the bastard, as opposed to guys like Dresden or Daniel Faust, who just like to surround themselves with the trappings of being bad guys while they have moral codes that verge on paladinhood at times. Verus pushed a bunch of misguided teenagers to commit suicide by warlock, and zero fucks were given.
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Apr 15, 2018 02:49
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Daric posted:Boy are you in for a trip. I can’t be alone in having bounced hard off the Mistborn sequels.
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Apr 15, 2018 03:08
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I think people are being a little uncharitable to Dresden, because most of the people who tell Harry "you're doing fine" are his friends. I wouldn't really take Uriel's word as being worth much, because he's a spymaster, and Dresden is an asset. At best, Uriel is probably the most morally questionable angel. Consider Lea's take on Dresden's actions when she talks to him in Ghost Story, and his inability to fully refute her opinion. Mab's interest in him. The tone of his thoughts leading up to the climax of Changes. The morals aren't as interestingly 'grey' as Verus or some other series can be, but that isn't really what its shooting for, either. 
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Apr 15, 2018 04:22
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:The other great thing about Verus is that he actually is quite the bastard, as opposed to guys like Dresden or Daniel Faust, who just like to surround themselves with the trappings of being bad guys while they have moral codes that verge on paladinhood at times. Honestly that book annoyed me because it seemed inevitable it would end up that way but whyyyy did it take so long for him to deal with the annoying little shits
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Apr 15, 2018 04:29
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Xtanstic posted:Honestly that book annoyed me because it seemed inevitable it would end up that way but whyyyy did it take so long for him to deal with the annoying little shits for some reason most people try to avoid killing children
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Apr 15, 2018 04:40
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VanSandman posted:I can’t be alone in having bounced hard off the Mistborn sequels. Yeah, they're not very good.
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Apr 15, 2018 08:55
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Megazver posted:Yeah, they're not very good. I would say the 2nd one isn’t great. The 3rd is decent. But then there’s Secret History which is awesome and the Mistborn Wax and Wayne books which are my second favorite series of Sanderson’s. Nothing is going to beat Stormlight Archives though.
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Apr 15, 2018 16:07
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Daric posted:I would say the 2nd one isn’t great. The 3rd is decent. But then there’s Secret History which is awesome and the Mistborn Wax and Wayne books which are my second favorite series of Sanderson’s. Nothing is going to beat Stormlight Archives though. Agreed with all of the above.
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Apr 15, 2018 16:50
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I also just finished the latest Faust book. I enjoyed it a lot. Out of the 3 different series in this story, I feel like Faust is still the best. I need to read the Revanche books though. I’ve heard they’re not bad.
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Apr 15, 2018 19:08
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awesmoe posted:for some reason most people try to avoid killing children
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Apr 15, 2018 19:17
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awesmoe posted:for some reason most people try to avoid killing children They weren’t kids and they were attempting to murder him.
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Apr 15, 2018 19:34
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darthbob88 posted:And also because Verus was moral enough to admit that they had a point, he was terribly guilty, and he was IIRC extremely interested in making penance by some way other than his death. Shame the teenagers were less interested in settling things peacefully. yeah this is why I like the books and that his supporting cast have their own directions to their lives, and their own values/frames of reference to judge his actions against Syzygy Stardust posted:They weren’t kids and they were attempting to murder him. you're right, it was this simple all along. thanks for clarifying.
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Apr 15, 2018 20:31
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Sworn to the Night was a pretty good book in the Craig Schaefer universe about revenge and telling the system to gently caress off. Looking forward to the other two.
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Apr 16, 2018 07:12
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darthbob88 posted:And also because Verus was moral enough to admit that they had a point, he was terribly guilty, and he was IIRC extremely interested in making penance by some way other than his death. Shame the teenagers were less interested in settling things peacefully. I liked how that all worked out. He genuinely did not want to kill them and he went to some extreme lengths to avoid killing them. Then when it became clear that somebody was going to have to die to settle this, he very professionally set them up and took them out. Very clean, very ruthless. And while he was upset about it, most of that was directed at them. He wasn't mad at himself because his past actions put him in this position, he was mad at them because their revenge quest was putting him in this position. His position was basically "You could have just let it go, nobody had to die here. But you wouldn't let it go and I don't feel guilty enough to die for this, so I'm going to have to be a murderer again and I hate you you for that." And that's what I really like about Verus. Where other urban fantasy protagonists tend to have paladinesque personal codes, Verus is a pragmatic survivalist. He was in the wrong but he didn't want to die, so he killed them, end of story. And when his friend gets upset about this, he's very straightforward about it and ends with what is basically "Where was all this 'all life is beautiful' crap when I killed the guys who were attacking you?" He's way better at being a bad guy protagonist than Daniel Faust, and he does it without all the tryhard bullshit.
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Apr 16, 2018 07:19
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Khizan posted:I liked how that all worked out. He genuinely did not want to kill them and he went to some extreme lengths to avoid killing them. Then when it became clear that somebody was going to have to die to settle this, he very professionally set them up and took them out. Very clean, very ruthless. He's not a bad guy protagonist in the same way Faust is, though - sure, he's unusually ruthless and pragmatic for a UF protagonist, but he doesn't really cross as many lines as Faust. Faust is more of a likeable bad guy that just happens to be in a world where there are almost no 'good guys' in a supernatural sense so it's inevitable that he ends up clashing with people much worse than even him. Verus is ruthless and sometimes selfish but ultimately after he cut off ties with his master he's mostly only really 'guilty' of retaliating against poo poo other people started, and being a bad friend sometimes. He's somewhat of a bad person, but not a 'bad guy'. Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Apr 16, 2018 |
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Apr 16, 2018 11:11
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Wolpertinger posted:
That's one reason he works so well as a character, though. He's ruthless but only when his back is to the wall, and he's weak enough that his back is often to the wall. Net result is, he's both believable and sympathetic despite his stark murderousness. I could never get past Faust's sexy succubus girlfriend, though.
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Apr 16, 2018 13:15
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I could never get past Faust's sexy succubus girlfriend, though. Schaefer backpedaled hard on that, though. I went and did a word-search on my kindle copies out of curiosity and the word "succubus" hasn't even appeared in the last four books (and it only appeared in the book before that as a reference to a different character). And then there was the big reveal in Double or Nothing that turned the early instaromance bullshit on its head.
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Apr 16, 2018 14:41
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I’ve come around on Caitlin. She’s very powerful but she’s almost never there when Daniel could actually use her.
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Apr 16, 2018 14:46
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Wolpertinger posted:He's not a bad guy protagonist in the same way Faust is, though - sure, he's unusually ruthless and pragmatic for a UF protagonist, but he doesn't really cross as many lines as Faust. Faust is more of a likeable bad guy that just happens to be in a world where there are almost no 'good guys' in a supernatural sense so it's inevitable that he ends up clashing with people much worse than even him. Yeah, bad person is more what I meant. Faust, IMO, has the same problem Marcone has. He's supposedly a bad guy, but you really only ever see him being heroic. Want me to believe Faust is a bad guy? Then show him doing some bad guy things. Shake an innocent non-magical business owner down for protection money, or burn down somebody who refuses to pay. Intimidate/kill a witness. Gimme him doing something that unambiguously crosses the line and can't be waved away by "well, they're worse than he is" or "They're criminals, they betrayed the organization, they knew this was coming."
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Apr 16, 2018 16:12
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Khizan posted:I liked how that all worked out. He genuinely did not want to kill them and he went to some extreme lengths to avoid killing them. Then when it became clear that somebody was going to have to die to settle this, he very professionally set them up and took them out. Very clean, very ruthless. This quote has convinced me to buy the first Verus book. Khizan posted:Yeah, bad person is more what I meant. I think the coffin scene in this latest one qualifies? Even if he doesn't do the final stages with his own hands? Or doesn't it? I mean, the guy was a bad guy, but ultimately harmless on his own. He was a patsy.
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Apr 16, 2018 16:16
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Khizan posted:Yeah, bad person is more what I meant. You can really tell that Marcone was Butcher's City of Villains character.
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Apr 16, 2018 16:17
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I could never get past Faust's sexy succubus girlfriend, though. This is one of the reasons I never made it past the first book. But honestly just found the entire book ho-hum.
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Apr 16, 2018 16:54
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Blasphemeral posted:This quote has convinced me to buy the first Verus book. quote:I think the coffin scene in this latest one qualifies? Even if he doesn't do the final stages with his own hands? Or doesn't it? I mean, the guy was a bad guy, but ultimately harmless on his own. He was a patsy. You mean the guy who knowingly sold lethally tainted drugs to a party full of teenagers in exchange for a $10,000 payout? That guy? He wasn't a big fish, but who cares about that? He basically pulled the trigger on 16 kids. That's pretty much the dictionary definition of "motherfucker had it coming", IMO.
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Apr 16, 2018 16:59
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I also hated Caitlin in the first couple of books, but she's become far more than male-gaze wish fulfillment. She has her own wants and needs and agenda. Especially agenda. I'm really curious to see how that plays out. In many ways her evolution as a character is similar to Lena from the Libriomancer series, only, you know, evil. I need to pick up the latest Faust book. I didn't realize it was already out.
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Apr 16, 2018 17:02
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Khizan posted:It's like Dresden in that the first book or so is fairly weak, but it picks up. Yup. Verus also has that same "holy poo poo, I just read 10 books in forty-eight hours, straight" rip-snort pacing that Dresden had. It's not a perfect series but it has the same "second generation UF" feel that the Peter Grant books do -- authors that have read Dresden, built on Butcher's virtues, and learned from Butcher's mistakes.
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Apr 16, 2018 17:07
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Re Daniel Faust: Neon BoneyardKhizan posted:You mean the guy who knowingly sold lethally tainted drugs to a party full of teenagers in exchange for a $10,000 payout? That guy? He wasn't a big fish, but who cares about that? He basically pulled the trigger on 16 kids. That's pretty much the dictionary definition of "motherfucker had it coming", IMO. Sure, he's a shitbag, but he couldn't/wouldn't have done that without a huge rear end in a top hat pushing him. Also, he'd totally be sent up the stairs by the real authorities without any issue, so it's not like they "needed" to brutally torture and kill him.
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Apr 16, 2018 17:52
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yup. Verus also has that same "holy poo poo, I just read 10 books in forty-eight hours, straight" rip-snort pacing that Dresden had. I kind of feel like Butcher is missing out on a key time in the genre. He was a pioneer, but now he's letting others forge the ground in his place. It's weirdly similar to what happened to Robert Jordan with the Wheel of Time. It got bogged down, releases slowed to a glacial pace, and within a few years there was a glut of books that stood upon his shoulders. These books continued with the tropes and trends of the WoT series, and raised the bar high enough that future installments of WoT were seen as derivative.
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Apr 16, 2018 17:52
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Yeah that's an interesting comparison. It doesn't help any that Dresden himself, as of the most recent book, has more in common with Rand Al'Thor than he does with Sam Spade.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:19
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah that's an interesting comparison. It doesn't help any that Dresden himself, as of the most recent book, has more in common with Rand Al'Thor than he does with Sam Spade. I firmly believe that Jordan was one of the most influential authors in fantasy, specifically with regards to "epic" fantasy. He laid a foundation for a new renaissance in the genre. He did it so well that he was outclassed in his own lifetime, and his most famous work was finished by someone who is his successor in the field. I find the story of the back half of Wheel of Time to be really fascinating. Not the books themselves, but the story of how authors who grew up reading the first books in the series built upon Jordan's influence to become a new breed of titans in the industry, long before Jordan finished the series. And Jordan is even something of a pioneer there, as his gradual fall from grace is mirrored by other authors today. Butcher is heading down that same road as the (former?) titan of urban fantasy. You could likewise label GRRM as the dying king of low fantasy. Like Jordan, both have inspired many other authors, authors of quality, to continue down the path they forged. And, just like Jordan, both seem content to coast on their accomplishments rather than continue to forge that path.
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Apr 16, 2018 18:33
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And both had their books turned into a TV series that became a cultural phenomenon.
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Apr 16, 2018 19:55
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:That's one reason he works so well as a character, though. He's ruthless but only when his back is to the wall, and he's weak enough that his back is often to the wall. That's why I like Verus. He has a very well-grounded, well-established internal conflict. A book where Verus was just a combination of Miss Cleo and John Wick would be a very boring book. Also it says something about urban fantasy that you talk about succubus girlfriends and it took me a second to realize which series you were talking about.
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Apr 16, 2018 21:09
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Junkenstein posted:And both had their books turned into a TV series that became a cultural phenomenon. Er, what? Only Game of Thrones has had a successful TV show afaik. The Dresden show was pretty unpopular and got cancelled quick and the Wheel of Time show is in development I guess. Wheel of Time also would be really poo poo as a TV series since so much of the best stuff from the books would be impossible to do on-screen. (Also they'd probably cut Rand murdering an entire town and forcing their corpses to pose bowing down to him while he's going crazy) Zore fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Apr 16, 2018 |
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Apr 16, 2018 21:17
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Khizan posted:Yeah, bad person is more what I meant. Faust has this very weird, very schizophrenic dichotomy of morality that the books don't remotely handle well. On the one hand, you have Daniel Faust. He has all the trappings of being a bad guy - he lies, he steals, he hangs out with drug dealers, he kills people, he wears sunglasses all the time, even when he doesn't need to -- but he only ever does bad things to bad people, and towards people who are innocent, he is a paragon of noble self-sacrifice. He works with criminals, but all the criminals we ever see him hang out with are friendly LGBT-accepting Robin Hood criminals who steal from the crooked and give to... themselves, fair enough. And on the other hand, you have Caitlin. Setting aside the succubus angle, she's a demon. She sadistically tortures and mutilates people and eats their souls and sends them to hell where they will be further tortured for all time. But she's cute about it! She drives fancy cars and bosses Daniel around in restaurants and has vulnerable moments and is into pedestrian BDSM and is a great girlfriend, except for the cruel, dehumanizing and debasing torture and mutilation that leaves people flayed alive in screaming agony forever. Like, you can't really do that, not in a serious sense. In a world where hell is real and ruled by real demons who really torment damned souls, they don't get to be cute. You can make them jokes, like Ugly Americans, or you can make them horror-shows, but you don't get to have it both ways. The Daniel Faust series tries to tip-toe back and forth across the line, but it doesn't really work.
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Apr 16, 2018 21:59
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Zore posted:Er, what? Only Game of Thrones has had a successful TV show afaik. The Dresden show was pretty unpopular and got cancelled quick and the Wheel of Time show is in development I guess. Irony.
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Apr 16, 2018 22:10
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Faust has this very weird, very schizophrenic dichotomy of morality that the books don't remotely handle well. The Harmony Black stuff at least takes a swing at "holy poo poo guys, this is really hosed up" re: Hell and everything about it and adjacent to it, including Daniel Faust. It might admittedly be too subtle in the Faust storyline, but I'm firmly of the opinion that anyone who thinks Faust isn't basically a monster (fighting worse monsters) isn't paying attention. For that matter, he's literally never given a particular gently caress about people he considers bad suffering horribly / for eternity. That was kind of a thing in the first book. His only really serious "wait, maybe this Hell thing isn't so great" moment was with the victim in the first book, and if Caitlin ever told him about how she resolved it he'd probably be quite pleased.  because he's kind of a monster
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Apr 17, 2018 00:36
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I thought Caitlin literally told Faust about it, and thats how we read about it.
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Apr 17, 2018 00:46
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Faust has this very weird, very schizophrenic dichotomy of morality that the books don't remotely handle well. I’m really hoping Caitlin is playing a long game with Faust for some non-twue Love reason. They introduce the idea that maybe she is then it’s resolved shortly after that. Her being with Faust doesn’t really make sense otherwise - she’s demonic royalty, whatever that entails in the setting, while he’s some small time criminal.
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Apr 17, 2018 00:46
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