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guidoanselmi posted:Sometimes you just wanna see how deep the rabbit hole of stupid goes. Also these threads usually have a bunch of lurkers so it's always good to expose bad faith bullshit and thinly veiled racism when it pops up. There's usually an audience who hasn't made their mind up yet.
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Apr 18, 2018 18:45
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Miftan posted:Also these threads usually have a bunch of lurkers so it's always good to expose bad faith bullshit and thinly veiled racism when it pops up. There's usually an audience who hasn't made their mind up yet. KJI's posts have lowered my opinion of Israeli policy. Maybe he's really a Hamas funded troll?
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Apr 18, 2018 18:55
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VideoGameVet posted:KJI's posts have lowered my opinion of Israeli policy. I refuse to believe anyone is paying him to do this.
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Apr 18, 2018 19:43
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Nebalebadingdong posted:That's part of his shtick. Keeping refugees out is paramount to Israeli nationalists, so if a refugee wants to return home, they are "pro-war" because nationalists cannot accept peace on those terms. guidoanselmi posted:Can you explain how this 1000x terrible outcome would come to pass? Like what series of events do you envision? Most people advocating for the right of return aren't arguing for a limited right that only extends to those displaced in 1947 (because there are few of them left) or that is controlled, limited, or litigated by Israel. Most advocates argue for a broad, normative right that any member of the Palestinian diaspora can "return" to Israel. Given that I don't think these advocates foresee the returnees as a permanent underclass, the right is understood to include a right to citizenship, and presumably franchise. So, unless you are willing to countenance limitations on what is supposed to be a moral right, the right of return would allow every Palestinian (most of whom are at best ambivalent about Israel continuing to exist as a homeland for the Jews) to go to Israel, become a citizen, and vote in elections. It is pretty reasonable for the population of a country to be concerned about the prospect of allowing people who have a separate national identity, and who are indifferent to hostile to the country continuing to exist in its current form, to suddenly have a voting majority. In other countries, these sort of sudden political upheavals, where a formerly downtrodden majority suddenly overtakes the power of the previously dominant minority, have often resulted in the majority exacting retribution against the minority, civil war, or even ethnic cleansing against the minority. See: Zimbabwe, Angola, Eritrea, Iraq, etc. Given that part of the shared belief of the Palestinian diaspora is that the Israelis are invaders who literally stole their homes, the ones that they still carry the keys to, it is not unreasonable for someone to believe that a Palestinian majority government would undertake retributive and confiscatory actions against the Israeli minority in the name of reparations or "land reform." I've seen several explicit replies to this line of reasoning. One is that the right of return is enshrined in international law, and that no security concerns are sufficient to abrogate a human right. Unfortunately, completely dismissing security concerns reads as, "Reap what you sow, if you didn't want bad things to happen, you shouldn't have created all these stateless refugees in the first place." Another is, "But South Africa." While it is true that South Africa managed to negotiate a fairly bloodless end to apartheid, that is not a guaranteed outcome. Plenty of other countries have failed to make that political transition in a way that respected minority rights. You don't have to agree with him, but acting like "letting every Palestinian have free movement and voting rights in Israel the way the right of return demands would be incredibly dangerous for Israelis and Israel itself" is some insane or racist proposition isn't helpful. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 18, 2018 20:07
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Miftan posted:I refuse to believe anyone is paying him to do this. If they are, they aren't getting their money's worth.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:08
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Dead Reckoning posted:
I feel like maybe you didn't read what you just typed before typing it. You're arguing against the most basic possible human rights.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:10
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I love how, by default, Israeli concern about having to share power with other ethnic groups is deemed reasonable, but Palestinian concern about having more or less no political power at all is "too demanding".
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Apr 18, 2018 20:11
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Dead Reckoning posted:Most people advocating for the right of return aren't arguing for a limited right that only extends to those displaced in 1947 (because there are few of them left) or that is controlled, limited, or litigated by Israel. Most advocates argue for a broad, normative right that any member of the Palestinian diaspora can "return" to Israel. Given that I don't think these advocates foresee the returnees as a permanent underclass, the right is understood to include a right to citizenship, and presumably franchise. Dead Reckoning is really thinking of the future, worrying specifically about the return of the children of refugees 
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Apr 18, 2018 20:17
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Dead Reckoning posted:"Reap what you sow, if you didn't want bad things to happen, you shouldn't have created all these stateless refugees in the first place." Surprise! It turns out that it makes people upset when you colonize their land and commit war crimes against them. Go figure.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:20
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Dead Reckoning posted:You don't have to agree with him, but acting like "letting every Palestinian have free movement and voting rights in Israel the way the right of return demands would be incredibly dangerous for Israelis and Israel itself" is some insane or racist proposition isn't helpful. it is both those things
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Apr 18, 2018 20:26
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seriously dead reckoning thats some reasonable_hitler.jpeg poo poo
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Apr 18, 2018 20:30
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fool_of_sound posted:seriously dead reckoning thats some reasonable_hitler.jpeg poo poo That's all of his posts tho, tbh.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:32
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The issue with Israel defenders is that they are defending the idea of an ethno-state without reckoning with the fact that they are defending an ethno-state.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:34
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It's depressing seeing someone argue against right of return for refugees from events that happened in living memory when someone who never had a relative there can "return" if they have one Jewish grandparent, potentially to settle on the ruins of a Palestinian village. Decide citizenship however you want, of course, but to frame it as return is particularly offensive in this context.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:35
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It's understandable why some would think letting every member of a certain ethnic group migrate freely to some territory already occupied by members of another ethnicity lead to large scale ethnic cleansing, after all that's what happened in 1948.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:40
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emanresu tnuocca posted:It's understandable why some would think letting every member of a certain ethnic group migrate freely to some territory already occupied by members of another ethnicity lead to large scale ethnic cleansing, after all that's what happened in 1948. You're justifying ethnic cleansing because you're worried ethnic cleansing might happen if you don't
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Apr 18, 2018 20:43
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There is no reason why israel was not turned to a international un controlled territory post ww2 instead of terminating the mandate entirely, giving it to anyone in particular would turn to a shitshow which it did
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Apr 18, 2018 20:47
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kidkissinger posted:You're justifying ethnic cleansing because you're worried ethnic cleansing might happen if you don't No, it was just some dark humor highlighting the irony of KJI's and DR's line of argumentation.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:50
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emanresu tnuocca posted:No, it was just some dark humor highlighting the irony of KJI's and DR's line of argumentation. Poe's law my friend.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:51
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The right to return is actually the only imaginable way to peace there is, and it can be done very peacefully if it is done well. That is, if the refugees and their descendants are allowed to return, integrated into Israeli society, and provided with unconditional reparations.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:57
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Plenty of Israelis would literally choose a spiteful nuclear holocaust over this. This is not a nice thing to note on Independence day. 
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Apr 18, 2018 21:19
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Like I said, you don't have to agree with him. If your position is, "Security concerns must always give way to human rights because states will always be able to come up with a justification for abrogating human rights. I don't care how many people die, if treating your enemies with humanity lets them destroy you, that's too drat bad" then that's fine. You're just working from different principles. Hell, you can even come at it from, "Israelis' security concerns are irrelevant to me because <reason>" but someone who does think that Israelis have a right to be concerned about their security is not going to agree. The question then is the underlying assumptions. kidkissinger posted:I love how, by default, Israeli concern about having to share power with other ethnic groups is deemed reasonable, but Palestinian concern about having more or less no political power at all is "too demanding". Nebalebadingdong posted:Dead Reckoning is really thinking of the future, worrying specifically about the return of the children of refugees fool_of_sound posted:it is both those things
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Apr 18, 2018 21:31
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Dead Reckoning posted:Which part of the example I provided was racist or illogical? Denying an ethnic group fundamental rights, particularly franchise, on the grounds that it would be 'dangerous' is racist on it's face.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:36
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fool_of_sound posted:Denying an ethnic group fundamental rights, particularly franchise, on the grounds that it would be 'dangerous' is racist on it's face. Like I said, if your position is, "all Palestinians have a right to be citizens of Israel, all citizens have a right to vote, drat the consequences" then that's fine, but surely you can understand how people who can easily foresee themselves or their families bearing the brunt of those consequences might see it differently.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:45
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Dead Reckoning posted:It's not about denying franchise, it's that Israelis don't want to grant citizenship to a group of people they are still de facto at war with. god willing, one day they will win the war on the people who are too dangerous to be given human rights
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Apr 18, 2018 21:47
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Dead Reckoning posted:It's not about denying franchise, it's that Israelis don't want to grant citizenship to a group of people they are still de facto at war with. You seem like the type of racist dipshit who would defend Japanese internment camps.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:47
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Dead Reckoning posted:It's not about denying franchise, it's that Israelis don't want to grant citizenship to a group of people they are still de facto at war with. This is literally the reason used to deny black people franchise in the US, down to rhetoric of race war
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Apr 18, 2018 21:48
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Dead Reckoning posted:It's not about denying franchise, it's that Israelis don't want to grant citizenship to a group of people they are still de facto at war with. You sound like a white southerner during reconstruction.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:50
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Dead Reckoning posted:It's not about denying franchise, it's that Israelis don't want to grant citizenship to a group of people they are still de facto at war with. What consequences. Be specific
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Apr 18, 2018 21:50
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Wow, the guy who hates black people and loves hearing about them getting gunned down by cops has similar opinions on Palestinians? I'm so shocked I tell ya.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:53
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I'm not taking a side here, I'm just trying to point out that there is actually room for discussion. fool_of_sound posted:This is literally the reason used to deny black people franchise in the US, down to rhetoric of race war Heck, the argument about whether to deny voting rights to soldiers and officials of the Confederate states (who did have a separate national identity and who we did go to war against) seems like a more accurate parallel, and there are still arguments that letting former rebels vote again was a mistake.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:58
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm not taking a side here, I'm just trying to point out that there is actually room for discussion. Hey, you are aware that there are Arabs living in Israel right? As in, local Palestinian Arabs. Not dudes from Dubai who moved.
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Apr 18, 2018 22:10
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even if i were to grant that giving the palestinians full right of return to present day israel would be disastrous for israel's nationhood, they brought it on themselves. they've had decades to end the occupation and help palestine rebuild into a functioning country. it would've cost less in blood and treasure to do so.
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Apr 18, 2018 22:11
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Dead Reckoning posted:It's not at all the same though. Black Americans didn't have a separate, non-American national identity , and we didn't fight the Civil War against black Americans. The parallel you are trying to draw is superficial at best.  Buddy you are talking out your rear end.
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Apr 18, 2018 22:14
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america would be better off if white people couldn't vote.
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Apr 18, 2018 22:17
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm not taking a side here, I'm just trying to point out that there is actually room for discussion. Going ‘well, there’s room for discussion’ about lunatic racist paranoia is actually taking a side.
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Apr 18, 2018 22:20
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Dead Reckoning posted:It's not about denying franchise, it's that Israelis don't want to grant citizenship to a group of people they are still de facto at war with. If you truly believe that, then why would you support settling Israelis in the midst of 'hostiles.' And why would you want these hostiles employed in your nation?
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Apr 18, 2018 22:26
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VideoGameVet posted:If you truly believe that, then why would you support settling Israelis in the midst of 'hostiles.'
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Apr 18, 2018 22:40
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Dead Reckoning posted:I don't understand your question. I think Israel ought to be halting all settlement activity and should be actively rolling back the smaller and more far-flung settlements, because they are an obstacle to establishing a two state solution. But not the larger nearer ones. Or the occupation with all the troops in Palestine.
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Apr 18, 2018 22:49
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Dead Reckoning posted:I don't understand your question. I think Israel ought to be halting all settlement activity and should be actively rolling back the smaller and more far-flung settlements, because they are an obstacle to establishing a two state solution. But still Palestinian guest workers right? Here's a thought. A contiguous Palestinian State. No islands of settlers. Financial recompensation for displaced Palestinians and their families. Even that won't be acceptable to the Israeli Government. So what's the plan for the next 50 years? Status Quo? How's that going to work out? Waiting for the Palestinian opinion of Israel to change favorably frankly sounds like foolish wishful thinking and frankly an excuse to continue settlements. Can't you see the optics here? The world is going to CONTINUE to turn against Israel if this continues. Tell us how this WON'T HAPPEN given the current 'plan'.
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Apr 18, 2018 23:18
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