|
Dead Reckoning posted:It's not about denying franchise, it's that Israelis don't want to grant citizenship to a group of people they are still de facto at war with. To be honest I'm not sure how you couldn't use this exact same argument against freeing slaves. You could say "the US government had enough power to suppress any potential post-slavery revolts," but the same is true of the Israeli military. Palestinians aren't a bunch of suicidal lunatics, and they're not going to throw themselves into lethal danger just for revenge, at least once they've actually been granted rights. The current violence is due to the fact that they're actively the victims of Israel injustice. edit: The only circumstance where it seems remotely likely this sort of scenario could come to pass is one where the current ruling group is a tiny minority to the extent where they could be easily disenfranchised by the new majority. But this wouldn't be the case with Palestinians, particularly when you consider the fact that most aren't going to have revenge as a top priority. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Apr 18, 2018 |
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 23:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 05:41 |
|
|
if you gave the palestinians the franchise it's not like they could hold a vote to push all the jews into the sea.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 23:40
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:if you gave the palestinians the franchise it's not like they could hold a vote to push all the jews into the sea. The Israelis are just afraid the Palestinians would treat them as poorly as they are treating the Palestinians
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 00:19
|
|
|
this thread is going in a weird loop
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 02:03
|
|
|
I'm thinking that Israel is intentionally treating the Palestinians not as badly as they want to because they want to keep international sanctions to a manageable level. By doing just enough bad stuff to warrant condemnation, but not enough to warrant extreme measures like an international embargo, Israel can keep slowly moving towards its goal of settlement while international powers feel that they can't do anything about it because they believe their response to Israel should be proportional to the crimes Israel actually commits.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 04:38
|
|
|
lollontee posted:That Israel stole their homes. That's indeed the claim, therefore the right of return will literally cause mass displacement if enacted. They make a literal claim, not meant to be symbolic in any way. mcmagic posted:Probably late to a lot of people responding to your bad opinions but I seem to remember that the last time there was a rogue apartheid state, international financial pressure seemed to work... Please, you're known for being wrong about every single conceivable thing, it's no wonder you love the pro-war, anti-Semitism apologists who are adamantly against the peace process. BDS is both unacceptable discrimination and counterproductive to ending the occupation. Divestments didn't do poo poo to South Africa and apartheid isn't an applicable term. There's a level of racism and inequality in Israel similar to other western countries like the United States. Gaza and the West Bank isn't Israel. If anything inappropriate is happening there, it'd be a war crime, not apartheid. Horrible Lurkbeast posted:What peace process? Seriously what in the last decade or two could be described by these two word? 1999-2001, 2006-2009. That's not a great record, but Likud barely winning elections is hardly reason to decide, oh well, endless war is better. VideoGameVet posted:You are putting into question the hypothesis of higher intelligence for Ashkenazi Jews with this ignorant post (yeah, I'm one ... Ivy educated and all of that). Who talked about anyone's ethnicity except you? JVP opposes the peace process, and they insist that no peace is possible unless maximalist Palestinian demands are met. So if tomorrow, we've got 1967 borders with land swaps, that's not good enough, permanent war until every single objective is met. The implication of what they advocate is a lot of people dying and immense human suffering.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 04:38
|
|
|
Nebalebadingdong posted:That's part of his shtick. Keeping refugees out is paramount to Israeli nationalists, so if a refugee wants to return home, they are "pro-war" because nationalists cannot accept peace on those terms. BDS and the right of return are pro war if they're preconditions on peace. Find me one mischaracterization I made about Palestinians. I have been extremely careful not to make collective statements about any ethnicity, nationality, or religion. I have criticized groups like Hamas that I don't think represent Palestinians. I gave you concrete proof that If Not Now's record on apologizing for anti-Semitism is poor, and JVP's is far worse. Let's start with refusing to distance themselves from Alison Weir, who had been screaming about the USS Liberty and harvesting organs for years, until she appeared on a white supremacist show. mcmagic posted:He's literally justifying ethnic cleansing. Your non-argument is some twisted, Trumpian poo poo. I believe in the two state solution, JVP and BDS literally want Israelis to get kicked out of their homes inside 1948 Israel, and thinks Israelis and Palestinians should keep killing each other until indefinitely that happens. Excuse me if Israelis aren't leaping to take that deal. There's literally zero benefit to them, while a two state solution would bring immediate, meaningful benefits to Palestinians (and Israelis too.) guidoanselmi posted:Can you explain how this 1000x terrible outcome would come to pass? Like what series of events do you envision? Either the conflict never ends because of the preconditions they place on it, or millions of refugee descendants expel the current residents, most of whom were ethnically cleansed by Middle Eastern states post-1948. mcmagic posted:The issue with Israel defenders is that they are defending the idea of an ethno-state without reckoning with the fact that they are defending an ethno-state. Every single state is an ethnostate. Like, everyone who criticizes Israeli housing policy in East Jerusalem for example, which is loving gross and I have never defended, is somehow living in a bubble where American zoning policy isn't just as bad if not worse. I live in one of the most left wing states in the country and it might as well be South Africa given the hardcore racial segregation here on a town by town basis. Or the same for our criminal justice system. emanresu tnuocca posted:No, it was just some dark humor highlighting the irony of KJI's and DR's line of argumentation. Of course there was ethnic cleansing, which is why we should try avoid more of it. That's how these things work. India/Pakistan, Greece/Turkey, etc... Over a million Greeks were kicked out of Turkey, it was a horrific, unspeakable injustice. And letting them back in today would lead to far worse bloodshed. Either we go back to the Jebusites settling every score, or we try to get the best deal we can conceivably get today. BDS, while failing to actually enact anything meaningful, is a gigantic propaganda win for the Israeli right that further entrenches the occupation. Ending the occupation and BDS are mutually exclusive goals.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 04:53
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:Every single state is an ethnostate. That's a big ol' load of poo poo lol. quote:Like, everyone who criticizes Israeli housing policy in East Jerusalem for example, which is loving gross and I have never defended, is somehow living in a bubble where American zoning policy isn't just as bad if not worse. I live in one of the most left wing states in the country and it might as well be South Africa given the hardcore racial segregation here on a town by town basis. Or the same for our criminal justice system. None of this makes the US an ethnostate. I'm thinking you don't even know what the term means. (also gross, are you from CT too?) quote:Of course there was ethnic cleansing, which is why we should try avoid more of it. That's how these things work. India/Pakistan, Greece/Turkey, etc... Over a million Greeks were kicked out of Turkey, it was a horrific, unspeakable injustice. And letting them back in today would lead to far worse bloodshed. Hey buddy, I got another place with Greeks and Turks you might wanna check out. Where people are essentially pro-unification. Where people discuss right to return minus war drums, where ethnic cleansing occurred way more recently. And gosh it's like right next to Israel/Palestine too.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 05:01
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:JVP opposes the peace process, and they insist that no peace is possible unless maximalist Palestinian demands are met. So if tomorrow, we've got 1967 borders with land swaps, that's not good enough, permanent war until every single objective is met. The implication of what they advocate is a lot of people dying and immense human suffering. What "war" are you talking about, exactly? Characterizing the suffering and death of Palestinians under Israeli occupation as victims of a "war" caused by Palestinian intransigence is the height of victim-blaming. This line of reasoning essentially states that no one should ever stand up for any ideals of justice, because it could cause conflict with those who don't want to give it to them. All oppression that isn't completely unavoidable is the fault of the oppressed for not doing as the oppressor wishes and resistance to tyranny is unacceptable. It's completely ridiculous and there's no way you'd apply the same logic universally (unless you're a literal fascist, maybe).
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 05:03
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:That's indeed the claim, therefore the right of return will literally cause mass displacement if enacted. They make a literal claim, not meant to be symbolic in any way. Your delusional prejudices about Palestinian intentions are not up for debate, I would agree. What you're saying is that the Palestinian remembrance of the historic injustices committed upon them by Israel is evidence of... RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR RACE WAR Kim Jong Il posted:BDS is both unacceptable discrimination and counterproductive to ending the occupation. Boycotts, Disinvestment and Sanctions are in indeed discriminatory, they discriminate against an apartheid state that refuses to alter its policies. BDS discriminates against the only actors with the power to end the occupation. Which is Israel, in case you weren't aware. It is both right and correct to discriminate against those who, by their explicit behaviour and politics, deserve it. It's a bit rich to hear the people with absolutely all the power in this relationship claiming they're afraid of the people they oppress and enslave. Yeah, no poo poo, and you should be. Because you're the tyrants, and if you don't give up your power voluntarily, they will come and take it from you with violence. And guess what, negotiating for a peaceful resolution at that point will be a tad too late. Which I assume in your mind is the fault of the oppressed, yeah?
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 10:19
|
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:It's not about denying franchise, it's that Israelis don't want to grant citizenship to a group of people they are still de facto at war with. When in the history of the world has the side that argued against universal suffrage ever ended up being the right side? What makes you think that this time it's different?
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 10:30
|
|
|
I'm just gonna drop a hot take that certain people seem to have failed to consider: In a pie-in-the-sky scenario where the world decides that human rights actually apply to all humans, including Palestinians, and Palestinians are granted citizenship and franchise in the nation from which they were ethnically cleansed, I suspect the process would include Israel drafting an actual constitution. One which enshrines human rights and prevents the current government from passing laws permitting the collective punishment, torture, and disenfranchisement of specific ethnicities. It seems highly disingenuous to suggest that an Israel which recognizes human rights would result in Brown Likud immediately seizing power and shoving all the Jews into Bantustans/the Sea/black ops Mossad-analogue prisons. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Apr 19, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 10:58
|
|
|
in the united states the only group that overwhelmingly votes for good poo poo most of the time is black people and they've been hosed over by this country for centuries.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 11:39
|
|
|
kidkissinger posted:I love how, by default, Israeli concern about having to share power with other ethnic groups is deemed reasonable, but Palestinian concern about having more or less no political power at all is "too demanding". Its entirely disgusting how people will make a pass for naked and brutal white supremacist racism if it's Israel doing it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 13:50
|
|
|
And don't even pretend, the only Jews who aren't white are the Ethiopians being sterilized and deported.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 13:54
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:
There IS NO peace process. There IS NO two state solution that would end up in any kind of equitable distribution. It's complete and utter fantasy land and a figleaf for people who know the status quo is morally unacceptable but don't really want to solve it. Also, Israelis and Palestinians are not "killing each other" and there is not any kind of war that is going on. One side is getting killed regularly and being deprived of their human rights by being kept in open air prisons and denied representation. Your argument on why Israelis should not take a deal that "doesn't benefit them" is word for word the arguments used to justify white southern attitudes toward reconstruction. When the status quo is an affront to human rights, rectifying that situation will ALWAYS result in loss of power for the group that has a disproportionate share. quote:Every single state is an ethnostate. Like, everyone who criticizes Israeli housing policy in East Jerusalem for example, which is loving gross and I have never defended, is somehow living in a bubble where American zoning policy isn't just as bad if not worse. I live in one of the most left wing states in the country and it might as well be South Africa given the hardcore racial segregation here on a town by town basis. Or the same for our criminal justice system. quote:Of course there was ethnic cleansing, which is why we should try avoid more of it. That's how these things work. India/Pakistan, Greece/Turkey, etc... Over a million Greeks were kicked out of Turkey, it was a horrific, unspeakable injustice. And letting them back in today would lead to far worse bloodshed. Either we go back to the Jebusites settling every score, or we try to get the best deal we can conceivably get today. BDS, while failing to actually enact anything meaningful, is a gigantic propaganda win for the Israeli right that further entrenches the occupation. Ending the occupation and BDS are mutually exclusive goals. mcmagic fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Apr 19, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 14:20
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:The state of Israel is both unacceptable discrimination and counterproductive to ending the occupation. Yes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 14:25
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:Divestments didn't do poo poo to South Africa and apartheid isn't an applicable term. There's a level of racism and inequality in Israel similar to other western countries like the United States. Gaza and the West Bank isn't Israel. If anything inappropriate is happening there, it'd be a war crime, not apartheid. Ah yes, once South Africa finished moving all the non-whites to the poo poo land where they could be nominally independent but still under Afrikaner military and political control, apartheid would be over and everything would be fine.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 16:12
|
|
|
Kim Jong Il posted:JVP opposes the peace process, and they insist that no peace is possible unless maximalist Palestinian demands are met. So if tomorrow, we've got 1967 borders with land swaps, that's not good enough, permanent war until every single objective is met. The implication of what they advocate is a lot of people dying and immense human suffering. That is "begging the question." Right on their front page: "We work with diverse communities across the U.S. to achieve a lasting peace for Palestinians and Jewish Israelis based on equality, human rights, and freedom. " ... and their Mission Statement: "Jewish Voice for Peace opposes anti-Jewish, anti-Muslim, and anti-Arab bigotry and oppression. JVP seeks an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem; security and self-determination for Israelis and Palestinians; a just solution for Palestinian refugees based on principles established in international law; an end to violence against civilians; and peace and justice for all peoples of the Middle East. Current mission statement adopted in 2009." Furthermore, in a negotiation process, one does not start at an acceptable position to the party you're negotiating with. Your assertion is false. But hey, I never would have even known about JVP if not for all of this discussion. So there's that. Time to break out the checkbook. VideoGameVet fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Apr 19, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 16:37
|
|
|
Are there other examples of successful decolonization besides Algeria, Zimbabwe, and South Africa. Two of those three required a war before decolonization, so South Africa's peaceful transition might have been an exception rather than a rule.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 18:45
|
|
|
Haiti? Cuba? Vietnam?
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 18:46
|
|
|
Burkina Faso sort of, India...
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 18:54
|
|
|
Malaysia? Singapore?
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 18:56
|
|
|
I guess I'm looking for examples where one local group was oppressing another local group, and eventually the oppressed group stopped being oppressed. The US Civil War could be an example where the slaves were freed.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 19:00
|
|
|
qkkl posted:Are there other examples of successful decolonization besides Algeria, Zimbabwe, and South Africa. Two of those three required a war before decolonization, so South Africa's peaceful transition might have been an exception rather than a rule. Just  at lumping Zimbabwe in as "successful."
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 19:06
|
|
|
qkkl posted:I guess I'm looking for examples where one local group was oppressing another local group, and eventually the oppressed group stopped being oppressed. The US Civil War could be an example where the slaves were freed. Women, LGBT and non-white people to some extent in some countries?
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 19:13
|
|
|
Orange Devil posted:Women, LGBT and non-white people to some extent in some countries? Hmm, women's suffrage is interesting, since they got the right to vote, but still didn't have power since men remained in control of the military and police forces.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 19:21
|
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:In other countries, these sort of sudden political upheavals, where a formerly downtrodden majority suddenly overtakes the power of the previously dominant minority, have often resulted in the majority exacting retribution against the minority, civil war, or even ethnic cleansing against the minority. See: Zimbabwe, Angola, Eritrea, Iraq, etc. It sounds like you're saying the Nakba was a good and moral thing to do so the state of Israel wouldn't have to choose between suppressing Palestinian human rights or giving those untermenschen the vote. Actually it sounds a lot like the 1980s pro-apartheid arguments "well we've treated black people so badly for so long at this point that they would be completely justified in hating us forever so for our own safety the oppression must never end  "
VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Apr 19, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 22:52
|
|
|
Your Parents posted:And don't even pretend, the only Jews who aren't white are the Ethiopians being sterilized and deported. Israelis don't particularly stand out in the Levant looks wise dude. Either you think they're a lot paler than they are, or are thinking Levantine natives are darker than they are. The northern Middle East/Eastern Medd is a really dumb place to try and place American style racial lines over. Like under the right circumstances (being Christian or Jewish) those people pass as white in America, and under the wrong ones (being Muslim) they don't. But just about all of them would make Midwesterners scared on an airplane if they didn't know ahead of time. Grape fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Apr 20, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2018 02:12
|
|
|
From time to time, a Mizrahi Jew gets killed by the IDF because they thought he was a Palestinian. Here's an article about the topic.quote:The worst part is, this isn’t the first case in recent days of an innocent getting killed by misdirected Israeli Jewish vigilante justice — and, if things keep going the way they’ve been going, it probably won’t be the last. The implication here, of course, is that if the victims were actual Arabs, then they wouldn't be innocents, and the Jewish vigilante justice wouldn't be misdirected.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2018 03:18
|
|
|
I guess wouldn't put it past Israelis to believe they totally don't look at all like the Arabs. Greeks do the same thing regarding Turks. Heck the English used to with the Irish somehow.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2018 04:21
|
|
|
it's like the hutus and the tutsis.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2018 09:57
|
|
|
Internet Explorer posted:At this point, I'm curious as to why people still read/reply to KJI. Because most people in D&D just want to argue. This thread goes completely dead when KJI and Dead Reckoning aren't posting. Talk about the conflicts of Israeli society and the different factions of the Israeli government doesn't draw nearly as much attention to this thread as obvious trolls tap-dancing along the border-line of racism do. qkkl posted:I'm thinking that Israel is intentionally treating the Palestinians not as badly as they want to because they want to keep international sanctions to a manageable level. By doing just enough bad stuff to warrant condemnation, but not enough to warrant extreme measures like an international embargo, Israel can keep slowly moving towards its goal of settlement while international powers feel that they can't do anything about it because they believe their response to Israel should be proportional to the crimes Israel actually commits. It's more that Israel doesn't really have a clear endgame or strategy to speak of. The government is being pulled between two extremist groups: the religious-Zionists who believe that immediately seizing all of the West Bank (and deporting all the Palestinians) is their divine mandate, and the ultra-Orthodox who mostly just want to make Israel a theocracy and have absolutely zero interest in Palestinians or the West Bank. The rest of the right doesn't particularly care one way or the other as long as the bribes keep flowing and their apartheid ethnostate is maintained, but since they can't reliably maintain their hold on power without the extremist groups, they'll parcel out favors and gains to them every so often according to the political situation with no long-term goal beyond holding their coalition together a few more months.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2018 14:26
|
|
|
You can argue that Israel doesn't have an explicit endgame but it's pretty clear they do. They will continue to support settlements fairly directly while pressing the boot harder and harder on the throat of the Palestinians until none are left. The status quo right now is the Israeli endgame.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2018 14:52
|
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:Just Just at throwing barbs at Zimbabwe without engaging with the economic warfare being waged against it for having the temerity to enact policies that benefit Zimbabweans, for taking back stolen land, which hasn't been the failure bourgeois media portrays it to be:quote:Mr Scoones says it is important that the full pictures, with all its nuances, is known and argues that the 10-year study of 400 households in the southern province of Masvingo debunks five myths: Also at your concern trolling over the poor white settlers, unjustly uprooted from land they stole fair and square, but it's easy to see why and how your opinions on decolonization in Africa informs your self-centered concerns about decolonization of Israel.But tbf it's consistent with what a military officer in the greatest perpetrator of imperialism in the last century would believe.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2018 15:51
|
|
|
Grape posted:Israelis don't particularly stand out in the Levant looks wise dude. Arabic people are white as of the 2010 census.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2018 16:40
|
|
|
Your Parents posted:Arabic people are white as of the 2010 census. Then I'm not sure how Israel is white supremacist against Arabs. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2018 17:33
|
|
|
kidkissinger posted:You can argue that Israel doesn't have an explicit endgame but it's pretty clear they do. It won't work. Stunts like "Spectators Watching Unarmed Palestinians Getting Shot" will drive more and more people into the "Israelis are Monsters" camp and eventually, the world (and the USA) will turn against them. A contiguous (no settler 'holes') Independent Palestinian State needs to happen ASAP if this eventual slide doesn't end Israel as the Israelis want it to be. They are just too under the influence of "Siege Mentality" to realize it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2018 18:14
|
|
|
VideoGameVet posted:It won't work. Stunts like "Spectators Watching Unarmed Palestinians Getting Shot" will drive more and more people into the "Israelis are Monsters" camp and eventually, the world (and the USA) will turn against them. At this point I don't see how it matters if the world turns against them. They absolutely do not need the US to subsidize their military at this point and I don't see what else can really be done.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2018 18:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 05:41 |
|
|
VideoGameVet posted:It won't work. Stunts like "Spectators Watching Unarmed Palestinians Getting Shot" will drive more and more people into the "Israelis are Monsters" camp and eventually, the world (and the USA) will turn against them. Sri Lanka got away with it when they smashed the Tamils, didn’t they? I recognise that this may end up being a little more extreme, though.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2018 18:30
|
|