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Why was Duncan's DNA so valuable in God- Emperor? I must have missed that.
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Apr 23, 2018 17:57
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Chernabog posted:Why was Duncan's DNA so valuable in God- Emperor? I must have missed that. Sentimental value, mostly.
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Apr 23, 2018 18:08
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Ah, I got that but I figured there would be something more.
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Apr 23, 2018 18:13
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Dyna Soar posted:god emprerors plot is like a bad 90s jrpg honestly, and like 90s jrpg's the sequels are even worse It's more of a visual novel starring Hwi.
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Apr 23, 2018 18:37
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Chernabog posted:Why was Duncan's DNA so valuable in God- Emperor? I must have missed that. He's an impetuous but ingenious man of action, which traits are somehow the foundation of humanity becoming genetically invisible to prescience and resistant to the pharonic model of government, thus freeing them from a destiny of dying out from machine-thinking.
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Apr 23, 2018 18:42
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Also his DNA tastes of strawberries
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Apr 23, 2018 18:43
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He is the kiswatz hadarach
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Apr 23, 2018 18:44
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AND HOW CAN THIS BE?
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Apr 23, 2018 18:45
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Duncan is functionally immortal as all of his clones can access the same set of ancestral memories. I think there's also a bunch of times where he's described as the greatest swordsman ever and he picks up a bunch of other powers/abilities through the novels (eg his first clone hayt was also a mentat)
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Apr 23, 2018 18:46
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He also hosed an honored matre straight
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Apr 23, 2018 18:47
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Have Blue posted:Duncan is functionally immortal as all of his clones can access the same set of ancestral memories. I think there's also a bunch of times where he's described as the greatest swordsman ever and he picks up a bunch of other powers/abilities through the novels (eg his first clone hayt was also a mentat) he gets rinsed by moneo
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Apr 23, 2018 18:50
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paul_soccer10 posted:he gets rinsed by moneo The later dune books are Herbert mashing super hero action figures together and going "pew pew" so yeah some other op dude was bound to come along and dunk the dunc
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Apr 23, 2018 19:11
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So the other week I rewatched the Sci Fi miniseries, and it reminded me about a bunch of stuff in the book that strikes me as odd. In particular it's that Paul falls victim to a lot of tropes that, in other contexts, would draw a lot of criticism. For instance, the fact that he's a mary sue. Like, its sort of handwaved away as all this rich kid education in knife fighting and being a mentat and whatever, but it still feels weird for him to just be intuiting perfect responses to alien cultural mores. Then there's the whole colonialism aspect that would seem like prime bait for someone to take issue with. But for the most part when I see Dune discussions these things are merely mentioned in passing, if at all. So my question to you, Dune Thread, is what is it exactly about Dune that insulates it from criticism in these areas? Is it perhaps something to do with the fact that the anthropological aspects of the book are so convincing, or something else?
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Apr 23, 2018 19:46
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Kyle Hyde posted:So the other week I rewatched the Sci Fi miniseries, and it reminded me about a bunch of stuff in the book that strikes me as odd. In particular it's that Paul falls victim to a lot of tropes that, in other contexts, would draw a lot of criticism. For instance, the fact that he's a mary sue. Like, its sort of handwaved away as all this rich kid education in knife fighting and being a mentat and whatever, but it still feels weird for him to just be intuiting perfect responses to alien cultural mores. Then there's the whole colonialism aspect that would seem like prime bait for someone to take issue with. But for the most part when I see Dune discussions these things are merely mentioned in passing, if at all. So my question to you, Dune Thread, is what is it exactly about Dune that insulates it from criticism in these areas? Is it perhaps something to do with the fact that the anthropological aspects of the book are so convincing, or something else? The colonialism never gets criticized because the Dune books themselves aren't exactly kind to the feudal system. Some of the Houses are pretty OK and try to do right by their people but they still have ultimate power. All it takes is one lovely heir to turn the whole thing into an oppression fest. The same system of government that lets the Atreides be nice and chill lets the Harkonnen be hideously evil. However even the Atreides aren't exactly perfect and you can see how much Leto actually doesn't like the situation but rolls with it because, well...the gently caress else you going to do? Dune is also chock full of the kinds of shenanigans feudal systems get up to and they're not at all pleasant to deal with soooo yeah. The books aren't saying "colonialism and feudalism are good" they're saying "space feudalism is still feudalism and it sucks." He's a Mary Sue character but he's a flawed one. He isn't perfect by any means and one of the themes of the book is ultimately dealing with being a Mary Sue. He has trouble accepting the fact that he's so powerful and is bothered by the fact that there are so many people ready to just throw their lives away at him. It also deals with one of the problems of prescience; he'd ask himself if he was really seeing the actual future of if he was seeing something and then making it happen. If he was making that future happen then he was taking free will and choice away from others by dictating their futures. One of the core undercurrents of theme in all of the Frank Herbert books is "too much authority is a bad thing." The tight control held by the feudal system in Dune gets abused mercilessly by some lovely, lovely people then Paul starts questioning if using his prescience was really an OK thing to do because it gave him more control over the destinies of others. The books do a lot to criticize excessive authority, really. It's everywhere. Of course then you have the god emperor sandworm tighten control so far that the whole thing blew up and humans scattered everywhere so 
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Apr 23, 2018 20:08
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Have Blue posted:The later dune books are Herbert mashing super hero action figures together and going "pew pew" so yeah some other op dude was bound to come along and dunk the dunc Yeah but Moneo is a middle-aged bureaucrat. He laughs and calls Duncan an antique or a stone-age breeding stud or something. The baseline human (or at least atreides) has hugely progressed since his time.
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Apr 23, 2018 20:36
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The colonialism never gets criticized because the Dune books themselves aren't exactly kind to the feudal system. Some of the Houses are pretty OK and try to do right by their people but they still have ultimate power. All it takes is one lovely heir to turn the whole thing into an oppression fest. The same system of government that lets the Atreides be nice and chill lets the Harkonnen be hideously evil. However even the Atreides aren't exactly perfect and you can see how much Leto actually doesn't like the situation but rolls with it because, well...the gently caress else you going to do? Dune is also chock full of the kinds of shenanigans feudal systems get up to and they're not at all pleasant to deal with soooo yeah. The books aren't saying "colonialism and feudalism are good" they're saying "space feudalism is still feudalism and it sucks." These are good points. I'm intending on rereading the actual book in the near future, because the last time I did I was like 15. At that age I don't think I was capable of seeing the bigger picture, and my memory of it is primarily of Paul's time in the desert. All the same, I'm still surprised I haven't really seen anyone in discussions of it with a more simplistic reading. Like just statistically, it feels like with how many people have read the book(s) that you'd encounter at least one person who didn't really get it. Maybe it's just because I haven't gone to the Dune subreddit or something.
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Apr 23, 2018 20:37
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Kyle Hyde posted:These are good points. I'm intending on rereading the actual book in the near future, because the last time I did I was like 15. At that age I don't think I was capable of seeing the bigger picture, and my memory of it is primarily of Paul's time in the desert. All the same, I'm still surprised I haven't really seen anyone in discussions of it with a more simplistic reading. Like just statistically, it feels like with how many people have read the book(s) that you'd encounter at least one person who didn't really get it. Maybe it's just because I haven't gone to the Dune subreddit or something. The book is...not subtle about those things. The Landsraad seriously loving sucks and the book repeatedly reminds you of it.
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Apr 23, 2018 20:45
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The book is...not subtle about those things. The Landsraad seriously loving sucks and the book repeatedly reminds you of it. Fair enough. Like I said, it's been quite some time since I actually read it. I'll revisit my thoughts here after I do.
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Apr 23, 2018 20:47
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I thought mary sues were idealized self-inserts? In which case, duncan idaho is the mary sue of Dune. Paul is just a standard hero archetype and the setup for Messiah's deconstruction of that archetype
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Apr 23, 2018 21:10
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basic hitler posted:I thought mary sues were idealized self-inserts? In which case, duncan idaho is the mary sue of Dune. Paul is just a standard hero archetype and the setup for Messiah's deconstruction of that archetype My understanding is that the term covers those instances, as well as when a character is just hyper-competent. I imagine because in many instances they are one and the same. I meant it as the latter case, anyway. In other news, I dug up my old copy of Dune and will be reading it immediately.
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Apr 23, 2018 21:43
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basic hitler posted:I thought mary sues were idealized self-inserts? In which case, duncan idaho is the mary sue of Dune. Paul is just a standard hero archetype and the setup for Messiah's deconstruction of that archetype They're usually self-inserts but the term just refers to characters that are given super ultra special treatment in the setting and are completely inviolable. They can do no wrong, they're incredibly special somehow, and are beloved by everyone they meet. Paul Atreides is a Mary Sue but like you said he gets deconstructed. Even in Dune itself there's a lot of "somebody this awesome existing would have some bad consequences." A cult grows up around him and the question of prescience that I mentioned starts coming up; he doesn't want to be a tyrant but starts to realize that merely by existing he already is guiding the fates of many others. It also begs the question of "does the end justify the means?" He ultimately sees things that happen in later books as well as the stagnation that occurs. Then again are prescient visions of the future inevitable or can you change it? Is it actual clairvoyance or are they just really smart and very insightful? Or just schizophrenic?
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Apr 23, 2018 22:06
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I think his central role and awareness of his role in the coming jihad takes some of the Mary Sue out of his character.
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Apr 23, 2018 22:11
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He's a deconstruction of the notion of Mary Sues, if anything.
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Apr 23, 2018 22:20
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Anyway I doubt such a meticulous and imaginative author would let a plain old Mary Sue into his story.
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Apr 23, 2018 22:50
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He was just the kind of hero who would fit in to Dune's mythos/history. An immortal man who has a warrior's soul and is decidedly masculine, but whose faults are a constant reminder of his shortcomings and his ultimate mortality. He's a paradox. Like, he steps on to the stage after Leto II like a swashbuckler in a world where nobody swordfights. He's also like an H.G. Wells man, just there to experience things and move the story along, giving it a human voice. The glimpses you get of his sad childhood and his family being enslaved and killed by the Harkonnens is what paints him as a rebel and a poet-warrior. Somewhere in God Emperor, Leto says of him "the oldest man in the universe, and the youngest, both in one flesh". He's Herbert's ideal hero. Btw, I would say yeah go ahead and read Heretics. If you like it read Chapterhouse, too. It's more far-out than the others, but hell, you're already pretty far-out with them.
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Apr 23, 2018 22:57
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do you think the atreides suicide soldiers leto sends to blow up the harkonen spice reserves were drugged into berzerker mode, or were they just brainwashed
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Apr 23, 2018 23:00
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paul_soccer10 posted:do you think the atreides suicide soldiers leto sends to blow up the harkonen spice reserves were drugged into berzerker mode, or were they just brainwashed Knowing the Atreides, could be both. e. All the signs of them being able to inspire their subjects, making them loyal beyond question are there. But later on the Atreides have a big impact on the BG and the BG use suicide troops often as well. They load them up with shere and train them to believe in their cause. Sainted terrorists. phasmid fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Apr 23, 2018 |
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Apr 23, 2018 23:04
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paul_soccer10 posted:do you think the atreides suicide soldiers leto sends to blow up the harkonen spice reserves were drugged into berzerker mode, or were they just brainwashed they were gay (Herbert had a whole thing about that, it's in the Dosadi Experiment)
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Apr 23, 2018 23:07
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sebmojo posted:they were gay Oh right. The gay shock troops. He's not totally off. Non-breeders in ape society are often used for battle but the way he conflates non-breeding males with being gay is archaic as hell.
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Apr 23, 2018 23:09
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phasmid posted:Oh right. The gay shock troops. He's not totally off. Non-breeders in ape society are often used for battle but the way he conflates non-breeding males with being gay is archaic as hell. I've always assumed it was a combination of high LGBT suicide rates and some kind of Freudian shemozzle about eros/thanatos
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Apr 23, 2018 23:12
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sebmojo posted:I've always assumed it was a combination of high LGBT suicide rates and some kind of Freudian shemozzle about eros/thanatos That sounds equally probable. That he was coming from there, that is.
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Apr 23, 2018 23:14
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D U N E So loving good. For me, part of the reason it's so good is because it is a fully formed detailed other universe that you are thrown into, and the reader is assumed to be quite intelligent. The politics, the GOSSIP, so fascinating. There is quite a bit of visual description, it's like watching a movie when you read it. During my first time I became aware of water wasted down the sink as I brushed my teeth. I must have read first book 20 times by now.
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Apr 23, 2018 23:22
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If Paul wasn't a Mary Sue, he wouldn't be the Kwisatz Haderach. It's not like you're reading a story set in modern America except the protagonist is Paul; it's already a universe populated by exceptional people (Mentats, Bene Gesserit, Guild Navigators, Tleilaxu). Paul is the result of an incredibly long breeding program by the Bene Gesserit, who already train mostly normal women into "witches" who can move with superhuman speed & strength, precisely control their own body functions, rearrange chemical structures of things they have ingested, and see the memories of all their female ancestors.
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Apr 23, 2018 23:28
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Please, the Atreidies would never brainwash anybody. They'd ask for volunteers from their peasant underclass soldiers with the promise of taking care of their families, and they have a track record of backing said promises up. Said families wouldn't be treated like nobility, god no, they'd just y'know not have to pay taxes for a while or something.
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Apr 23, 2018 23:42
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Pham Nuwen posted:If Paul wasn't a Mary Sue, he wouldn't be the Kwisatz Haderach. It's not like you're reading a story set in modern America except the protagonist is Paul; it's already a universe populated by exceptional people (Mentats, Bene Gesserit, Guild Navigators, Tleilaxu). Paul is the result of an incredibly long breeding program by the Bene Gesserit, who already train mostly normal women into "witches" who can move with superhuman speed & strength, precisely control their own body functions, rearrange chemical structures of things they have ingested, and see the memories of all their female ancestors. Sure. Though I can't recall any specific examples at the moment, it feels like a lot of other mary sue characters that are criticized as such also have a lot of contrivances to explain their awesomeness. Perhaps in this case, it's that all those contrivances also tie into a million other aspects of the book and thus feels more organic. I brought it up initially because I think it's more pronounced in the screen adaptations, but it seems like such an easy accusation to make I was just surprised in general that I hadn't seen more discussion about it here, or elsewhere. That said, I like the idea that Paul is a deconstruction of mary sues. Also I just read through Paul's test with the Reverend Mother before I jet off for an appointment, but I'm appreciating already how much the book rewards knowledge of itself. In particular to this short little bit, allusions in the Reverent Mother's thoughts to Jessica's parentage.
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Apr 23, 2018 23:46
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3v_Oytj-yg
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Apr 24, 2018 00:06
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I wish "Mary Sue" was erased from the lexicon
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Apr 24, 2018 00:43
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What bothers me is it leaving the realm of fan fiction critiques. It was, I believe, originally referring to someone introducing a new character who was flawless and wonderful and everyone liked them, to some established property. From that definition, it can't be applied to any of the characters that are actually in the primary work.
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Apr 24, 2018 00:47
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Communist Walrus posted:I wish "Mary Sue" was erased from the lexicon
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Apr 24, 2018 00:48
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Vavrek posted:What bothers me is it leaving the realm of fan fiction critiques. It was, I believe, originally referring to someone introducing a new character who was flawless and wonderful and everyone liked them, to some established property. From that definition, it can't be applied to any of the characters that are actually in the primary work. When you have writers working on settings that aren't their own, though, it's a very appropriate term. Kevin J. Anderson got paid to write Mary Sue Star Wars fan fiction about Kyp Durron, for instance.
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Apr 24, 2018 00:49
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