[P/I] This post is for illustrative purposes only and did not actually occur

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(Thread IKs: Zodium, John Charity Spring, really queer Christmas)

ate shit on live tv: Feb 15, 2004; by Azathoth

I don't know how the Israeli system of government works, but if it's anything like America's, presumably the legislator already has the ability to overrule the supreme court claim of "unconstitutionality" by amending the constitution. Which I think is fair, if you want to create a racial apartheid state, it should be clear. Perhaps they could even put something like this in the Israeli constitution "We must secure the existence of our people and the future for Israeli children." With that guiding light, the supreme court won't have any issues with "unconstitutionality."

# ? Apr 23, 2018 01:25

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# ? May 23, 2024 06:54

Frijolero: Jan 24, 2009; by Nyc_Tattoo

LEGALIZE IT*

* the apartheid state

# ? Apr 23, 2018 01:26

R. Guyovich: Dec 25, 1991

ate poo poo on live tv posted:

I don't know how the Israeli system of government works,

have you considered looking into this before posting in the thread about palestine

# ? Apr 23, 2018 02:48

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

ate poo poo on live tv posted:

I don't know how the Israeli system of government works, but if it's anything like America's, presumably the legislator already has the ability to overrule the supreme court claim of "unconstitutionality" by amending the constitution. Which I think is fair, if you want to create a racial apartheid state, it should be clear. Perhaps they could even put something like this in the Israeli constitution "We must secure the existence of our people and the future for Israeli children." With that guiding light, the supreme court won't have any issues with "unconstitutionality."

it's not just the racism stuff

the Supreme Court has also done things like "bar public agencies from openly practicing mandatory gender segregation" and "force the Israeli government to recognize gay marriages conducted in other countries" and "yes, it's legal for a town to not ban businesses from being open on Shabbat" and "hey, that Palestinian has the actual deed to his land along with proof that he bought it, tell the loving settlers to stop trying to steal it"

it's been a huge restraining influence on the Israeli far-right governments, and rather than write every loving right-wing fringe demand into the Basic Law (the Israeli Constitution), they'd rather just pass a law saying "the Knesset can override any Supreme Court ruling with a simple majority vote"

the problem is that Netanyahu's government is entirely dependent on the ultra-conservative fringe parties, so every time they get a bug up their rear end, they can demand that Bibi gives them what they want RIGHT NOW or else they'll collapse his government and force new elections. and Bibi would rather deal with that than make any concessions at all to Arabs or leftists

# ? Apr 23, 2018 03:03

Communist Zombie: Nov 1, 2011

Can someone explain why the leftist and arab parties wont join up? Is it mutual hatred, one sided animosity, very incompatible goals, or just old bad blood?

# ? Apr 23, 2018 08:49

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Communist Zombie posted:

Can someone explain why the leftist and arab parties wont join up? Is it mutual hatred, one sided animosity, very incompatible goals, or just old bad blood?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List ?

# ? Apr 23, 2018 09:32

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Communist Zombie posted:

Can someone explain why the leftist and arab parties wont join up? Is it mutual hatred, one sided animosity, very incompatible goals, or just old bad blood?

One of our Israeli posters would be able to give more accurate info, but from my position as an outside observer, I see a couple of big problems. First, leaning left economically doesn't necessarily mean being pro-Palestinian and being pro-Palestinian doesn't necessarily mean leaning left economically, so it's rare for all the parties that could be called "left" to completely line up ideologically. There's a tendency for non-Israeli observers to see everything in Israeli politics through the lens of Israel-Palestine since that's all the media covers, but there's a number of other political struggles going on in Israeli culture, so it's not uncommon for a party to hold the "left" position on one issue and the "right" position on another.

For example, the biggest left-of-center party is called "Zionist Union", and just as the name implies, it leans Zionist and openly stated just a few months ago that it wouldn't coalition with the Arabs - they're economically center-left and push for solving Israel's massive economic inequality problem, but they still subscribe to Jewish nationalism. Yesh Atid, another party that looks left-of-center on a generic political spectrum, is a ~~pro-business~~ pro-middle-class party whose primary focus is on a prosperous professional class and mostly looks "leftist" because it also pursues secularism and enforcing a division between religion and state; it has no interest in coalitioning with the Arab parties.

There's also the fact that the single Arab party isn't necessarily ideologically stable, since it was formed from the merger of four Arab parties with very different platforms - they all agree on better treatment for Israeli Arabs and Palestinians, but there's a still a lot of internal disagreement on economic and cultural policy, which makes it difficult for the Joint List to come to agreements with other parties.

Second, and more importantly, they just don't quite have enough seats. The right-wing parties hold a majority of the Knesset, and if the government falls then it'll be because one of the far-right parties decided that Netanyahu was too far left for their taste. Even if every nominally-left party banded together, they wouldn't be able to form a majority government. Some polls suggest that might change if elections are held again now, but since the center-left parties refuse to coalition with the Joint List, they'd have to bring some right-wing parties into the coalition and it'd probably not last that long. A couple of the smaller left parties, which are more like what we'd recognize as genuinely left, are willing to team with the Joint List, but they're too small to matter.

# ? Apr 23, 2018 14:59

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

Israeli Labor cut ties with UK labor because of Corbyn lol. They have no real left there

# ? Apr 23, 2018 15:15

Grondoth: Feb 18, 2011

Isn't a huge issue around settling is that israel's housing situation is lovely, and the government's solution is to pay for Israelis to colonize the west bank?

# ? Apr 23, 2018 15:17

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Grondoth posted:

Isn't a huge issue around settling is that israel's housing situation is lovely, and the government's solution is to pay for Israelis to colonize the west bank?

That's part of it, but it's just one facet of a larger problem:

In other words, extremely high economic inequality and poverty rates, comparable to the US, while the government has largely stopped spending on the general populace and now directs most of its social spending to settlers, yeshivas, and other subgroups with political power.

The housing problem specifically has a fairly simple cause: over 90% of land in Israel is owned by the central government, which doesn't build housing itself but rather sells it to private developers on a piecemeal basis. This system manages to combine the worst parts of private and public land development plans - the government imposes extremely long approval processes and gives plenty of opportunities for NIMBYs to slow things to a crawl, and then stands by and does nothing when the private developer just builds luxury housing and jacks up the prices. On top of that, the government isn't starting enough construction to keep up with population growth, and what little does get built is immediately snapped up by wealthy investors aiming to take advantage of the rapidly rising prices.

The exception, of course, being the settlements, where developers don't actually have to pay for the land, the government actively subsidizes housing and infrastructure to a much higher degree than in Israel proper, and the government often offers expedited processes and accelerated approval for settlement projects. This all amounts to housing being significantly cheaper in the settlements, thanks in large part to a government policy of actively incentivizing that.

# ? Apr 23, 2018 16:37

Communist Zombie: Nov 1, 2011

Thank you. In another thread a poster said that an Arab-Left coalition would be large enough to rule if they could join together, I see thats not the case and its more complicated than that.

# ? Apr 23, 2018 19:13

Bear Retrieval Unit: Nov 5, 2009; Mudslide Experiment

ate poo poo on live tv posted:

I don't know how the Israeli system of government works, but if it's anything like America's, presumably the legislator already has the ability to overrule the supreme court claim of "unconstitutionality" by amending the constitution. Which I think is fair, if you want to create a racial apartheid state, it should be clear. Perhaps they could even put something like this in the Israeli constitution "We must secure the existence of our people and the future for Israeli children." With that guiding light, the supreme court won't have any issues with "unconstitutionality."

The thing is that Israel doesn't have a constitution, only the guiding principles of Israel's declaration of independence which includes all the good poo poo like non discrimination on any basis and basic human rights. So they'll basically have to write and pass a constitution before they can start loving with it.

Bear Retrieval Unit has issued a correction as of 19:24 on Apr 23, 2018

# ? Apr 23, 2018 19:20

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

Main Paineframe posted:

That's part of it, but it's just one facet of a larger problem:

In other words, extremely high economic inequality and poverty rates, comparable to the US, while the government has largely stopped spending on the general populace and now directs most of its social spending to settlers, yeshivas, and other subgroups with political power.

The housing problem specifically has a fairly simple cause: over 90% of land in Israel is owned by the central government, which doesn't build housing itself but rather sells it to private developers on a piecemeal basis. This system manages to combine the worst parts of private and public land development plans - the government imposes extremely long approval processes and gives plenty of opportunities for NIMBYs to slow things to a crawl, and then stands by and does nothing when the private developer just builds luxury housing and jacks up the prices. On top of that, the government isn't starting enough construction to keep up with population growth, and what little does get built is immediately snapped up by wealthy investors aiming to take advantage of the rapidly rising prices.

The exception, of course, being the settlements, where developers don't actually have to pay for the land, the government actively subsidizes housing and infrastructure to a much higher degree than in Israel proper, and the government often offers expedited processes and accelerated approval for settlement projects. This all amounts to housing being significantly cheaper in the settlements, thanks in large part to a government policy of actively incentivizing that.

Creating a housing scarcity and then subsisizing supply in settlements has to be 100% intentional. That's devious. Simultaneously full settlements and ensure the people there stay there.

# ? Apr 23, 2018 23:20

Percelus: Sep 9, 2012; My command, your wish is

i'm the ferociously zionist descendant of a holocaust survivor who unironically believes in the need for israeli lebensraum

# ? Apr 24, 2018 00:22

Percelus: Sep 9, 2012; My command, your wish is

seriously why is norman finklestein like the only publicly outspoken child of holocaust survivors to point poo poo like this out

# ? Apr 24, 2018 00:24

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

the lesson of ww2 was be hitler before the other guy.

# ? Apr 24, 2018 00:25

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

Percelus posted:

seriously why is norman finklestein like the only publicly outspoken child of holocaust survivors to point poo poo like this out

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/descendants-of-holocaust-survivors-have-altered-stress-hormones/

# ? Apr 24, 2018 00:28

Percelus: Sep 9, 2012; My command, your wish is

it really doesn't help the children of holocaust survivors are all boomers just about and while generational politics are reactionary af it's also empirically supported that boomers are all heinous money grubbing sociopaths

# ? Apr 24, 2018 00:31

Percelus: Sep 9, 2012; My command, your wish is

i probably should have picked a better choice of words but i mean like the whole generation was money grubbing enough to vote in reagan/thatcher and literally sell out their children and children's children for some short term stock price bumps

# ? Apr 24, 2018 00:37

Raldikuk: Apr 7, 2006; I'm bad with money and I want that meatball!

Percelus posted:

i probably should have picked a better choice of words but i mean like the whole generation was money grubbing enough to vote in reagan/thatcher and literally sell out their children and children's children for some short term stock price bumps

Much like today, it isn't the entire generation doing so. Around the time of Regan and Thatcher there was a lot going on that the elite were able to take advantage of. Economically speaking, stagflation had a huge impact in allowing the sweeping changes they brought in. Stagflation showed that standard Keynesian monetary policy was insufficient. This presented the perfect opportunity for the capitalist class to get economic reforms passed. In the US specifically Carter's Fed had to bite the bullet of increasing rates to extraordinary rates (peak appears to be about 13%) which was grossly unpopular (who the gently caress wants a mortgage at a minimum of 13% interest? it's insanity), so it was a bit easy for the Reagan's of the world to say "see, those policies have failed you greatly. Let's deregulate it all!".

This isn't to say that boomers don't have terrible political opinions, or that many of them are of the gently caress you got mine variety, but the reality is that the capitalist elite took advantage of the political landscape and that was the big difference. And it worked really well too, because in the US at least, that's when the dems started up their "third way" narrative and dropped all vestiges of the new deal coalition.

# ? Apr 24, 2018 02:32

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Percelus posted:

seriously why is norman finklestein like the only publicly outspoken child of holocaust survivors to point poo poo like this out

He's not, and even actual survivors have complained about Israel, but the media don't like to give them the limelight.

# ? Apr 24, 2018 02:40

Darkman Fanpage: Jul 4, 2012

Main Paineframe posted:

That's part of it, but it's just one facet of a larger problem:

In other words, extremely high economic inequality and poverty rates, comparable to the US, while the government has largely stopped spending on the general populace and now directs most of its social spending to settlers, yeshivas, and other subgroups with political power.

The housing problem specifically has a fairly simple cause: over 90% of land in Israel is owned by the central government, which doesn't build housing itself but rather sells it to private developers on a piecemeal basis. This system manages to combine the worst parts of private and public land development plans - the government imposes extremely long approval processes and gives plenty of opportunities for NIMBYs to slow things to a crawl, and then stands by and does nothing when the private developer just builds luxury housing and jacks up the prices. On top of that, the government isn't starting enough construction to keep up with population growth, and what little does get built is immediately snapped up by wealthy investors aiming to take advantage of the rapidly rising prices.

The exception, of course, being the settlements, where developers don't actually have to pay for the land, the government actively subsidizes housing and infrastructure to a much higher degree than in Israel proper, and the government often offers expedited processes and accelerated approval for settlement projects. This all amounts to housing being significantly cheaper in the settlements, thanks in large part to a government policy of actively incentivizing that.

i gotta say, yeshivas are some of the most useless fucks in the world.

# ? Apr 24, 2018 02:54

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

https://twitter.com/Vanessid/status/988214509234896896

# ? Apr 24, 2018 03:59

ate shit on live tv: Feb 15, 2004; by Azathoth

Jose posted:

https://twitter.com/Vanessid/status/988214509234896896

Pretty sure you can sue over that.

# ? Apr 24, 2018 21:49

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

https://images.haarets.co.il/image/...30.29953562.png

birthright founder giving protesting new yorkers the finger outside his fundraising dinner

# ? Apr 28, 2018 01:26

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-israel-palestinian-protesters-shot-20180428-story.html

good article on the amputees that israel decided to create.

exit wounds the size of fists from these sniper rounds.

# ? Apr 29, 2018 03:03

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFtqd4s_TXs

Abby Martin was on the Joe Rogan Experience to talk about the massacre in Gaza and the fascist attitudes of the Israeli public. This is a 23 minute clip, and it's fascinating to see the hamster wheel in Joe Rogan's head spinning because this is the first time he's heard about most of this stuff.

# ? Apr 30, 2018 07:32

Percelus: Sep 9, 2012; My command, your wish is

goddamn those street interviews finkelstein wasn't kidding when he said israel is mean country

# ? Apr 30, 2018 17:25

Peanut President: Nov 5, 2008; by Athanatos

Real hurthling! posted:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-israel-palestinian-protesters-shot-20180428-story.html

good article on the amputees that israel decided to create.

exit wounds the size of fists from these sniper rounds.

"Asked about the type of ammunition used, an Israeli military spokesman said, 'In the context of the violent riots in Gaza, the IDF employs only standard weapons and ammunition that are lawful under international law.'"
"Protesters have burned tires, thrown rocks and flown kites carrying molotov cocktails over the fence."

gently caress off

# ? Apr 30, 2018 18:26

paul_soccer10: Mar 28, 2016; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

lol https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/991003000079568897

# ? Apr 30, 2018 19:18

paul_soccer10: Mar 28, 2016; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

saw him trending, thought maybe he finally got indicted but nope
https://twitter.com/4everNeverTrump/status/991010588728807424

# ? Apr 30, 2018 19:18

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFtqd4s_TXs

Abby Martin was on the Joe Rogan Experience to talk about the massacre in Gaza and the fascist attitudes of the Israeli public. This is a 23 minute clip, and it's fascinating to see the hamster wheel in Joe Rogan's head spinning because this is the first time he's heard about most of this stuff.

the comment section on this was ftw

# ? May 1, 2018 04:04

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

doop de doo, let's check my RSS feed and see what the new Knesset session is up to...

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/245252 posted:

Nationality Law passes first reading

A bill that would enshrine Israel's Jewish nature into law passed its first Knesset reading on Tuesday by a majority of 64-50.

The bill, which is sponsored by MK Avi Dichter (Likud), will now be sent to a special committee headed by fellow Likud MK Amir Ohana. The bill needs to pass its second and third readings in order to become law.

The bill enshrines the status of the State of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people and the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in its homeland as a unique right for the Jewish people, the symbols of the state, Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and the Hebrew language as the official language.
...
"The State of Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people," said Dichter. "This is a clear fact. But despite everything, after 70 years, unfortunately, it is not clear to everyone and it is certainly is not anchored in any law in the State of Israel.

The bill has been seen as controversial, with opposition MKs contending that passing the law would weaken Israel's non-Jewish minorities. A similar bill in 2014 titled the 'Jewish State Law' failed amidst coalition wrangling.

eh, well, that one was expected. wonder if there's anything else

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/245256 posted:

A bill allowing jurists to invoke Jewish law during legal battles passed its third and final reading in the Knesset by a vote of 39-32.

The law, which was sponsored by MK Nissan Slomianski (Jewish Home), instructs judges to "turn to the principles of freedom, justice, and peace as espoused by Jewish law in addition to turning to the principles of the Jewish tradition" when current legislation does not provide an adequate answer.

A version of this bill had already been passed as part of the Basic Law: The Judiciary in 1984 but has been sparingly used by Israel's legal system due to its unclear applications.

The bill had aroused controversy from opposition MKs, who alleged that its passage would pave Israel's transformation from a democracy to a state governed solely by Jewish law.

"How can you force a person who does not believe in God, a law that is different from the law of a democratic state, which was not accepted by an elected representative and does not meet the criteria of democracy?" asked MK Meirav Michaeli (Zionist Union).

"In what democratic state could this law be imposed on its citizens" continued Michaeli, who contended that Jewish law "does not recognize equality, not between Jews and non-Jews, and not between men and women".

MK Dov Khenin (Joint List) stated that the real goal of the law "is to change the foundations of the judicial system, to distance the system as much as possible from advanced concepts of democracy and to make the system more nationalist, conservative and religious."

guess the march towards theocracy continues as usual. I'm sure that's all for now, right?

https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Benjamin-Netanyahu/Supreme-Court-president-pleads-with-Netanyahu-not-to-endanger-democracy-553060 posted:

Supreme Court president pleads with Netanyahu not to endanger democracy

The Israeli public believes if the Supreme Court is denied the capacity to strike down laws enacted by the Knesset, there will be no checks on the government and it will have unlimited power.

Supreme Court President Esther Hayut warned Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked in a two-hour meeting on Sunday that their insistence to limit the power of the Supreme Court could endanger Israeli democracy.

Netanyahu’s Likud and Shaked’s Bayit Yehudi parties support legislation permitting the Knesset to override the court’s decisions to strike down laws with a simple majority of 61 MKs. But Hayut would oppose the bill even if it were to call for a larger special majority to override the court, media reports said.

Bayit Yehudi leader Naftali Bennett, who told The Jerusalem Post that “the bill was the most important decision being made in 25 years,” has threatened Netanyahu’s coalition if the bill is not brought to a vote in Shaked’s Ministerial Committee on Legislation next Sunday.

“There can be dialogue about whether the majority required should be 61 or 65, but more than that negates the point of having an override clause,” Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan said. “The Knesset passes many laws that help minorities, but it also has the right to advance legislation that helps the majority of citizens.”

oh, right, that. gotta love Erdan's super dogwhistle quote there, tho. what a Knesset!

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pm-authorized-to-declare-war-in-extreme-situations-without-consulting-cabinet/ posted:

PM authorized to declare war in 'extreme' situations without consulting cabinet

In a surprise and potentially far-reaching victory for Benjamin Netanyahu, the Knesset on Monday evening gave the prime minister the authority to declare war or order a major military operation by consulting only the defense minister, and not via a full cabinet vote as the law had previously required.

Sixty-two Knesset members voted the dramatic proposal into law, beating out the 41 opposition MKs who opposed it claiming that the language of the law effectively gives free reign to the prime minister by removing all oversight.

According to the new law, in “extreme circumstances,” military operations can be authorized by the prime minister and defense minister alone and will not need a vote by cabinet ministers.

The law does not specify exactly what those circumstances may be, or who will determine them, saying only that the case will apply, “if the issue is necessary due to urgency.”
...
Two opposition lawmakers — Zionist Union’s Omer Bar Lev, an IDF reserve officer with the rank of colonel and a former commander of the elite unit Sayeret Matkal, and Yesh Atid’s Ofer Shelah, a company commander in the reserve Paratroopers Brigade who lost an eye during the 1982 Lebanon War — warned the committees that the wording of the new legislation could enable the prime minister to exclude lawmakers who opposed a military operation and to bring such an operation to a vote in their absence.

They also said that allowing the prime minister and defense minister to decide when a situation is considered “extreme circumstances” would give them full power to go to war without any oversight.

who in the gently caress thought giving Benjamin "bibi" Netanyahu unlimited war powers was a good idea :psyduck:

# ? May 1, 2018 20:24

fabergay egg: Mar 1, 2012; it's not a rhetorical question, for politely saying 'you are an idiot, you don't know what you are talking about'

luv 2 grant dictator powers 2 corrupt fascists

# ? May 1, 2018 20:30

Bear Retrieval Unit: Nov 5, 2009; Mudslide Experiment

can't wait to put a nail through my slave's ear as biblical jewish law demends.

# ? May 2, 2018 05:32

Sheng-Ji Yang: Mar 5, 2014

Percelus posted:

goddamn those street interviews finkelstein wasn't kidding when he said israel is mean country

# ? May 2, 2018 07:20

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Sheng-Ji Yang posted:

There's a really disturbing panel in an Eli Valley comic where he backs down from some large Zionist who's threatening him on the street in New York, and he quotes a line that's roughly "it's the thugs who make history."

# ? May 2, 2018 07:28