(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
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the ccp is way more sensitive to mass opinion and increasingly more effective at policymaking than its american counterparts; this is hard to stomach for people raised on absolute us exceptionalism
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 03:32 |
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# ? May 24, 2024 14:50 |
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Yossarian-22 posted:For the record, I had a Marxist economics professor who has written a ton about this very subject. He has also been to China and both of the Koreas, has contacts in the labor movement, and even given talks in Cuba about how the Chinese economic system isn't worth emulating At the same time, China has explicitly rejected Singapore's actual state capitalist model quote:China rejects Singapore model for state-owned enterprise reform
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 03:46 |
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KaptainKrunk posted:the ccp is way more sensitive to mass opinion and increasingly more effective at policymaking than its american counterparts; this is hard to stomach for people raised on absolute us exceptionalism It's because the American government has way too many "checks and balances" thanks to corruption and crony capitalism. It's loving pathetic how a state government can block a federal law like Obamacare, for instance. Just imagine living in a state that blocks a future federal law that passed on free tuition and single-payer, or by a Circuit Court that no one has ever heard of. Having a strong centralized government is preferable to the bullshit we have now, and having one would actually make voting much more important.
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 03:47 |
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R. Guyovich posted:seos aren't my measure, and the existence of markets doesn't make an economy capitalist. does the marketization of certain industries in cuba suddenly make their economy capitalist? I never said they don't matter. You're just clearly backfilling. You work backward, listing cherry-picked aspects of Chinese society and can make a coherent if specious case that whatever economic intervention the Chinese state happens to be engaging are evidence of socialism. You act as though you have a nuanced understanding of the concept that we're too ignorant to get, while in fact opportunistically crafting it as you go along to reach the conclusion that you want.
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 03:48 |
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Yandat posted:it would have been cool as heck if Germany had had a successful revolution This is where it failed: Battle of Warsaw 1920
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 03:50 |
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Thug Lessons posted:I never said they don't matter. You're just clearly backfilling. You work backward, listing cherry-picked aspects of Chinese society and can make a coherent if specious case that whatever economic intervention the Chinese state happens to be engaging are evidence of socialism. You act as though you have a nuanced understanding of the concept that we're too ignorant to get, while in fact opportunistically crafting it as you go along to reach the conclusion that you want. Having an NEP like policy doesn't make the state capitalist. If the CCP has an autocoup at some point than yes but until there is an actual counter-revolution within the party or outside its a socialist state
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 03:53 |
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Yandat posted:I don't think anyone's arguing that China doesn't have a sort of Market Socialism in a sense, the argument is that it's soon to be the largest economy in the world and might be developing towards a goal of socialism, depending on how you feel about the CCP. I think that's just inane. They pretend there's never been a billionaire on the Standing Committee, but it's not as though they release their finances except when someone loses an internal conflict and get docked for corruption. Realistically every one of them is a billionaire, if not directly then through their families. If you expect billionaires to ever legislate away their own wealth and power you're out of your mind.
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 03:55 |
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Top City Homo posted:Having an NEP like policy doesn't make the state capitalist. This isn't the loving NEP. They're the largest advanced economy on the planet. Again, a better comparison would be Norway, but way bigger and still mired in the so-called development process.
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 03:59 |
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Thug Lessons posted:This isn't the loving NEP. They're the largest advanced economy on the planet. Again, a better comparison would be Norway, but way bigger and still mired in the so-called development process. I don't see what the size of the Chinese economy has to do with comparisons to NEP.
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 04:00 |
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china isn't an advanced economy yet. this is basic stuff.
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 04:07 |
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I don't see what the size of the Chinese economy has to do with comparisons to NEP. The NEP is just something people seize on because it's an example of the Bolsheviks, who are immaculate, permitting market mechanisms, (in an almost entirely agrarian economy). Nobody here was actually a Right Oppositionist until they decided to latch on to China, and Bukharin never advocated market socialism.
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 04:08 |
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Yossarian-22 posted:On that note, it kind of bugs me to hear advocates of various state socialisms use pithy arguments about standard of living increases under Stalin and Mao, as though we should take similar arguments about capitalism's standard of living increases by Stephen Pinker et al as similar gospel. economic growth isn't the be-all end-all measure for success, and i don't think you'll find many marxists who believe it is. the difference is whether the dividends of growth went to the working class or the capitalist class. state systems that provide universal housing, education, employment, subsidize practically everything else and deliberately keep prices low for essential goods have very different priorities from those that don't. obviously china isn't doing all that at present — though subsidies and government programs remain in place for all these things — but in the years leading up to 2035 and 2049, we should see the pendulum swinging back. this is the party's stated goal, and they wouldn't make these pronouncements if they didn't believe they could follow through.
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 04:09 |
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R. Guyovich posted:china isn't an advanced economy yet. this is basic stuff. They are an advanced country. They're a massive industrial power, in fact the greatest industrial power ever to exist. What you mean is that they're a "middle-income country", i.e. not as rich as the US and Europe, which is unsurprisingly a definition that owes far more to contemporary bourgeois economics than materialism.
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 04:12 |
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Thug Lessons posted:I never said they don't matter. You're just clearly backfilling. You work backward, listing cherry-picked aspects of Chinese society and can make a coherent if specious case that whatever economic intervention the Chinese state happens to be engaging are evidence of socialism. You act as though you have a nuanced understanding of the concept that we're too ignorant to get, while in fact opportunistically crafting it as you go along to reach the conclusion that you want. "aspects" of chinese society that are universal and govern the most important sectors of it? just because you want to downplay their importance doesn't make them window dressing. i could accuse you of the same thing; ignoring those elements of the chinese economy that are inconvenient to your capitalist restoration hypothesis. this kind of finger-pointing gets us nowhere. Thug Lessons posted:They are an advanced country. They're a massive industrial power, in fact the greatest industrial power ever to exist. What you mean is that they're a "middle-income country", i.e. not as rich as the US and Europe, which is unsurprisingly a definition that owes far more to contemporary bourgeois economics than materialism. no, i meant precisely what i said. their industries are not as advanced as their american and european counterparts.
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 04:15 |
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R. Guyovich posted:"aspects" of chinese society that are universal and govern the most important sectors of it? just because you want to downplay their importance doesn't make them window dressing. i could accuse you of the same thing; ignoring those elements of the chinese economy that are inconvenient to your capitalist restoration hypothesis. this kind of finger-pointing gets us nowhere. I "downplay their importance" because you're obviously deploying them opportunistically to make the best rhetorical case for China being socialist that you can. You didn't sit down from first principles and decide that large SEOs + municipal rural land ownership + robust private sector = socialism, because no one would ever do that. You quite literally fell for the propaganda and believe in the glorious future where the megabillionaires on the Standing Committee will usher in communism.
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 04:24 |
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China can make a lot of stuff because they can leverage their much higher Purchasing Power Parity and low labor costs into producing cheaper goods, but in purely technical terms First World economies have much more capital-intensive manufacturing processes that are way more advanced. In terms of economic activity - China is still at parity with Cuba.
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 04:24 |
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china is BAD BAD BAD ! SAD !
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 04:25 |
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Thug Lessons posted:This isn't the loving NEP. They're the largest advanced economy on the planet. Again, a better comparison would be Norway, but way bigger and still mired in the so-called development process. What is your benchmark for socialist economic policies? So far you've compared China to the dirigisme policies of fascist South Korea and the militarist Japanese Empire and then to a social democratic country like Norway. Lay out the framework for us to figure out your argument.
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 04:40 |
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there's a giant toggle marked COMMUNISM in the back of Xi's residence and he has to flip it when the hammer and sickle is between the red lines
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 04:43 |
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Top City Homo posted:What is your benchmark for socialist economic policies? So far you've compared China to the dirigisme policies of fascist South Korea and the militarist Japanese Empire and then to a social democratic country like Norway. My argument is that your defenses of Chinese socialism are obviously opportunistic and self-serving. Whatever China's doing must be socialist. I'm not going to have a conversation about socialism with you where I'm forced to lay out some theory of socialism so you can poke holes into it.
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 04:51 |
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KaptainKrunk posted:the ccp is way more sensitive to mass opinion and increasingly more effective at policymaking than its american counterparts; this is hard to stomach for people raised on absolute us exceptionalism Lol
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 04:57 |
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Thug Lessons posted:My argument is that your defenses of Chinese socialism are obviously opportunistic and self-serving. Whatever China's doing must be socialist. I'm not going to have a conversation about socialism with you where I'm forced to lay out some theory of socialism so you can poke holes into it.
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 04:59 |
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 05:00 |
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Home ex is like fishmech with Chinese characteristics so I don't know why you waste your time jousting with him
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 05:06 |
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I don't see the Chinese leadership actively undermining their own sources of national power, do you? the elite in the us are not satisfied with merely loving over the working poor; they're coming for the nominally middle class and want to destroy (or merely keep from decaying) every new deal and post-war institution that saved capitalism
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 05:08 |
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 05:24 |
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Karl Barks posted:Home ex is like fishmech with Chinese characteristics so I don't know why you waste your time jousting with him Xishmech
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 05:51 |
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Hahahahahahahaha How The gently caress China Socialist Hahahaha Xi Just Expropriate the Wealth of the Billionaires Like Central Government Democratize the Means of Production Haha
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 06:32 |
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gonna get me a Foton https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAtU1PR0Y2Y
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# ? Apr 27, 2018 07:02 |
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https://twitter.com/ajitbirsingh/status/990347167029190662
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# ? Apr 29, 2018 01:37 |
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Posing with the lesbian Nazi is peak liberalism tbf.
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# ? Apr 29, 2018 01:56 |
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Posing with the lesbian Nazi is peak liberalism tbf. scratch a liberal etc
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# ? Apr 29, 2018 03:59 |
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Alice: She-Wolf of the Bird's Nest
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# ? Apr 30, 2018 13:20 |
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alice is the weirdest far right politician ever, her party virulently opposes immigrants and gay marriage and globalism but she's living in switzerland with her sri lankan girlfriend
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# ? Apr 30, 2018 18:37 |
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Thug Lessons posted:This isn't the loving NEP. They're the largest advanced economy on the planet. Again, a better comparison would be Norway, but way bigger and still mired in the so-called development process. NEP was actually a pretty good analogue for China in the early reform period when agriculture -was- actually the first part of the economy to be "liberalized"
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# ? Apr 30, 2018 18:39 |
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Typo posted:NEP was actually a pretty good analogue for China in the early reform period when agriculture -was- actually the first part of the economy to be "liberalized" that was 30 years ago
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# ? Apr 30, 2018 18:40 |
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is there a single chinese dissident the west loves who doesn't unironically love property rights?
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# ? Apr 30, 2018 18:40 |
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has anyone read Max Hirsch's Democracy versus Socialism? He was a single taxer/Georgist who supposedly wrote an intellectually honest criticism of Marxian economics. He wasn't a troglodyte and he didn't hate the poor. I think he advocated "capitalism without feudalism" as most Georgists do and since at least the transitional period would involve some Georgian policies I think that he should be studied.
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# ? Apr 30, 2018 19:39 |
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Typo posted:alice is the weirdest far right politician ever, her party virulently opposes immigrants and gay marriage and globalism but she's living in switzerland with her sri lankan girlfriend A fascist who thinks the rules should apply to everyone except themselves?
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# ? May 1, 2018 00:29 |
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# ? May 24, 2024 14:50 |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vnpSdUuwfw
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# ? May 1, 2018 02:28 |