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I'd be super happy with champions having clearly defined weaknesses that allow for counterplay besides "get your team to hard cc chain them". Like the problem is never just that a particular champion can zwee around (for example), it's that they also have a shield, an invulnerability/disjoint, and a cc of their own to largely neutralize the potential consequences of zweeing wrong. Oh, and even with all that, they can burst you faster than you can burst them.
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Apr 28, 2018 07:55
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I don't understand the point of these jungle changes.
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Apr 28, 2018 08:55
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there are no frogs in league of legends actually. wait maybe Lulu can turn you into one. but that's it
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Apr 28, 2018 09:08
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strong bird posted:all the boring melee supports with fun spells but garbage ultimates that arent spells (cow, pudge, pudge 2, etc)
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Apr 28, 2018 09:47
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strong bird posted:alright heres my ideal lane breakdown, i think this would be good for the meta and the competitive scene as well, last game i watched was like 4-2 at 40 minutes i dislike all of this!! i dont like any of it!
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Apr 28, 2018 09:56
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Smol posted:I don't understand the point of these jungle changes. I don't understand why they'd even want to "Increase the number of jungle v. jungle interactions in the early game". Everything about JvJ is bad outside of gank/counter-gank or stealing camps. 1v1 fights in the jungle suck for champion viability and smite wars suck period.
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Apr 28, 2018 13:28
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Smol posted:I don't understand the point of these jungle changes. Broadly speaking, Riot is attempting to encourage more aggression during the early laning phase by reducing things like safe waveclear options, giving junglers fewer opportunities to gank, creating more points of contention (such as with the cannon changes), and making offensive summoner spell options (like Ignite) more powerful compared to defensive ones. I don't think it'll work that well. I'm convinced that the trend towards defensive openers is a matter of top level solo queue/competitive players learning to prioritize consistency over risk rather than a matter of numbers. The design of the game's caught itself in a bit of an ugly trap: because of the general asymmetry of champions and pick order, you're going to get cases where people can consistently be counterpicked. If you simply reduce safe options to the point where the player has no option but to interact with their lane opponent, you're going to get brutal lanes where whoever gets counterpicked by someone competent gets to enjoy a fun-filled 10 minutes of getting their rear end fed to them and emerge from the other side completely useless. Because of this, you have to have at least a certain viable level of safe laning available for each champion, but this then creates the aforementioned problem of optimization: safe openers are ideal at top level play because they reduce or eliminate risk, leading to more consistent performances over time (and thus more wins).
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Apr 28, 2018 14:24
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Smol posted:I don't understand the point of these jungle changes. Hashinshin is too stupid to drop a ward in river at 2:30 so he bitched enough at Riot that they decided to remove the jungle role It's a terrible change because junglers currently only have the first ten minutes of the game to have any kind of impact (often less than that) because they removed so much good and xp from the jungle over the last 12 months Firebert fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Apr 28, 2018 |
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Apr 28, 2018 16:28
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Vermain posted:Broadly speaking, Riot is attempting to encourage more aggression during the early laning phase by reducing things like safe waveclear options, giving junglers fewer opportunities to gank, creating more points of contention (such as with the cannon changes), and making offensive summoner spell options (like Ignite) more powerful compared to defensive ones. You realize that dota has been around a lot longer than league with the same style of counterpick stuff and wacky things happen in dota pro play all the time, right? It's not that league is boring a lot of the time in pro play because of "the style of the game" but rather design decisions made by riot.
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Apr 28, 2018 16:43
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There's a lot of conflicting interests that Riot is trying to deal with in the modern environment. Players simultaneously want lanes to matter, but they don't want them to matter too much. They want to be able to beat up and crush their lane opponent, but they don't want to be sent into the unwinnable hellscapes of counterpick lanes. They want to be able to gain massive gold advantages and solo carry, but they don't want a 4/0/0 LeBlanc or Kha'Zix from the other lane emerging from the fog and one-cycling them. There's a weird desire for a state of League of Legends where the rest of your team is there merely to stand in awe of your skill as you 1v5, and I think it's something that's fundamentally unobtainable and unhealthy to pine for.SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:It's not that league is boring a lot of the time in pro play because of "the style of the game" but rather design decisions made by riot. The two games have several fundamental differences despite their similar styles that dictates what happens at the top end. League wants an environment where every champion is roughly viable in solo queue, where there's strictly defined positions, where there are mechanics for champions that are behind to catch up, where all champions have the ability to scale and grow, and where counterpicks aren't devastating. Riot could change all of those things, but I argue it would dynamite a large part of why the game has been so successful: there's nowhere near the same level of potential frustration when playing compared to DotA 2. League made a sacrifice of higher highs and lower lows for a more consistent experience for the playerbase, and it's brought them a lot of success. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing for top end play, but it does mean that top end play is going to appeal far more to people who are fine with and enjoy trying to coordinate their team versus solo carrying (since their overall impact on the game is inherently going to be less than in a game where they can completely send their opponent to the dumpster) and that you're going to get less wacky poo poo like a level 1 Earth Spirit causing untold mayhem.
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Apr 28, 2018 16:55
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I would say that when league was most popular and most people I know who play agree it was best was around season 3 or 4, which was when solo carrying was actually more possible, but not to the extent of dota 2. Roll back shut downs being global gold and see if that makes the game more fun
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Apr 28, 2018 17:13
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I mean, you can still solo carry plenty fine. It's not like boosters have gone out of business or Dopa somehow struggles getting a smurf to Masters in a week or two. What's happened is more that it's become more difficult to completely 1v9. I think it's hard to parse how much if this is a consequence of certain design decisions (mandatory waveclear on mages, changes to solo gold distribution, etc.) and how much of it is a consequence of everyone simply getting progressively better at the game and understanding the importance of risk minimization in gaining consistent wins. You actually saw a similar shift in chess, even though the rules of the game haven't changed for hundreds of years: the 19th century had a lot of "immortal" games because a lot of chess theory hadn't been properly codified or understood, but a subsequent century of analysis and an increase in the volume of accessible literature means that defensive openers and opener memorization now tend to be preferred.
Vermain fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Apr 28, 2018 |
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Apr 28, 2018 17:29
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In my observations a lot of players have basically been in the same ranked bucket for a long time now, and the usual theory is that every gets better at a roughly equal rate so if you're a gold player you've gotten better at the same rate as every other gold player and haven't really advanced at all. Having played a lot of normal games with people I used to play DotA with recently I began to suspect the opposite, people haven't gotten better at all. Watching lots of long time league players get rolled by a guy that doesn't even know what his own champion does let alone any of the other 9 in the game (and will never read those abilities) just makes me think league is mostly a game about making good decisions and people unsurprisingly aren't getting much better at making good decisions.
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Apr 28, 2018 18:42
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Smol posted:I don't understand the point of these jungle changes. They're really loving bad.
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Apr 28, 2018 20:25
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A lot of the recent changes seem sort of like a person jumping from one "lose 20 pounds in 10 days!!!" fad diet to another, looking for the One Weird Tip that's going to solve their problem, rather than making a long-term lifestyle change. Like yeah, maybe the jungle knobs could've been tweaked a bit so that the enemy jungler doesn't get to set up their tent in my lane quite as fast. But they're making a bunch of relatively massive changes all at once.
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Apr 28, 2018 20:43
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Servaetes posted:They're really loving bad. Usually in can at least get see the idea behind the changes, but these look like a pretty bad misstep
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Apr 28, 2018 22:06
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I can see what they're trying to do with Scuttle. Realistically, though, all you're doing is making your jungler groan even more about their team. Your botlane's Vayne + Sona versus Xayah + Rakan and Scuttle spawns bot? That's 100g, EXP, and even more river control down the tubes. It'd create a lot of situations where junglers have to innovate routes on-the-fly, which both makes jungling harder to learn and pushes jungling even more into the niche of junglers that can handle any camp, including Krugs, without getting their poo poo pushed in.
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Apr 28, 2018 22:08
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I dont play jungle so i really cant tell but did it really need this update? It seemed like the jg was fine for like once in the past 5 seasons
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Apr 28, 2018 22:13
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Monathin posted:I dont play jungle so i really cant tell but did it really need this update? It seemed like the jg was fine for like once in the past 5 seasons As was somewhat mentioned above, they're trying out various things to see if they can encourage more inter-lane fighting instead of always relying on your jungler to come in before you get a fight going. The idea behind the changes are that it encourages the junglers to actively contest eachother more instead of lanes early on, delays their ability to gank lanes, and overall decreases their total influence early. I think it's a bad idea for the reasons everyone else has stated. edit: From the horse's mouth: https://twitter.com/riot_maple/status/990334322157666304 He mentions down the thread that they're still unwilling to compromise on reducing early game jungle pressure. Guess we'll see what the new changes are. Vermain fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Apr 28, 2018 |
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Apr 28, 2018 22:16
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There is no reason to jungle if you can't get as much gold or xp as a laner and also can't pressure the map early. I really don't think this is going to play out like they think it will
Rygar201 fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Apr 28, 2018 |
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Apr 28, 2018 22:33
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what if both junglers were forced to play master yi each game
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Apr 28, 2018 22:39
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If the goal is to force junglers to fight eachother early, won't we be back to the days where the only viable junglers are the top duelists who can dash across the screen to kill someone with a massive execute then hop back across the screen like nidalee/lee/elisee? Also, what the gently caress is fiddlesticks going to do to kill the scuttle, some jungler kits are just terrible at killing it while others kill it in 2 seconds, they would have to change the scuttle to just sit still when attacked.
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Apr 28, 2018 22:48
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I can't believe I'm saying this as a support main, but honestly I think the level of jungle pressure is fine right now. The most played jungler is goddamned Yi. At least in bot lane, I feel like I can kill people in lane without living in constant terror. edit: actually sites disagree about data so I have no idea who the most played jg is edit edit: it's actually lee nevermind, whatever, I still think jg pressure is fine
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Apr 28, 2018 23:41
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That's why it's so galling, it feels right for once but the Hashashins of the world have hosed it up with their whining
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Apr 28, 2018 23:47
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Add Battlerite-style shrinking circles to each lane and wall them off from eachother for the first 10 minutes to ensure that laners are forced to engage in honorable laner versus laner combat without reliance on the cowardly jungler to back them up.
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Apr 28, 2018 23:51
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the jungle changes gently caress up laning a lot for people. now you are roped into bullshit crab fights that you never want to be a part of because if you fail to win it your jungler is basically behind all game, and with the changes to delay early jungle presence people up against lane bullies like darius where the counterplay is legitimately "get your jungler to gank early when they inevitably overextend", well, screw you buddy. honestly this is very poorly thought out, and should be scrapped... not even sent back to the drawing board. this is just not good.
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Apr 28, 2018 23:56
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I don't mind it taking an extra camp to hit 3, I think that's a decent change. A single immediate gank top can basically end the lane, which is pretty annoying as a top laner and also pretty annoying as a jungler if you wanted to do literally anything else at level 3. I don't think the scuttle crab changes sound very good though. And hopefully they don't change the xp curve after that first clear.
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Apr 28, 2018 23:56
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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Can't wait to win the fight at Scuttle 🦀 and still fall behind because someone else on my team killed the 🦀. 50/50 smite fights are peak game design
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Apr 29, 2018 00:00
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if they want people to gank later what they can do instead of radically changing jungle routes and roping laners into forced squabbles which are way too impactful for something early on in the game(seriously, picture high diamond players losing a crab. that poo poo is devastating), they can just encourage farming/value junglers by making jungle multipliers or something where you are rewarded for staying in the jungle for extended periods, then let farming/value junglers naturally rise up.
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Apr 29, 2018 00:01
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pog boyfriend posted:if they want people to gank later what they can do instead of radically changing jungle routes and roping laners into forced squabbles which are way too impactful for something early on in the game(seriously, picture high diamond players losing a crab. that poo poo is devastating), they can just encourage farming/value junglers by making jungle multipliers or something where you are rewarded for staying in the jungle for extended periods, then let farming/value junglers naturally rise up. All of this is baked right into the functionality of the Jungle item passives to I have no idea why they don't utilize that.
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Apr 29, 2018 00:01
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I'm just gonna play Willump or Ivern and take the crab easily, gg
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Apr 29, 2018 00:31
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kingcobweb posted:I'm just gonna play Willump or Ivern and take the crab easily, gg Udyr also does the crab very fast due to 🐻 stance with the 🦀 passive debuff while stunned and I prefer Udyr to Nunu
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Apr 29, 2018 00:40
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The upcoming mana and jungle changes are not being well received, has riot done any large scale changes the past couple seasons people thought were dumb but people came around on them?
Ra Ra Rasputin fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Apr 29, 2018 |
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Apr 29, 2018 01:04
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The mana changes mean that you have less spells but they can now buff them to make more impactful Next season...turnspeeds
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Apr 29, 2018 01:25
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its curtains for Kevin posted:The mana changes mean that you have less spells but they can now buff them to make more impactful And then a z axis and cliffs!
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Apr 29, 2018 01:35
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The thing I miss most about dota is the heroes. Tinker, invoker, all the cool poo poo.
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Apr 29, 2018 01:45
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:The upcoming mana and jungle changes are not being well received, has riot done any large scale changes the past couple seasons people thought were dumb but people came around on them? Plants
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Apr 29, 2018 01:56
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Plants still seem kinda goofy to be honest. The bumper plants are probably the most interesting ones and the yum rum fruits are definitely the least. But they were going to put them in no matter what people say and I'm sure they'll force this retarded poo poo with the crab in no matter how much people protest
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Apr 29, 2018 02:16
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the bombombs should do damage
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Apr 29, 2018 02:19
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plants are cool and i want more plants. make like a venus fly trap type plant thats a jungle monster and if you kill it then it gives you a deku branch buff for 2 minutes or wot ever that adds extra damage to your auto attacks
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Apr 29, 2018 02:24
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