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Netrunner oozing with weird sexual tension. e: good start to the page AgentF fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Apr 23, 2018 |
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Apr 23, 2018 13:58
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| # ? Jun 10, 2024 01:34 |
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sonatinas posted:Hope y’all saw the couple minutes of anr action on Billions last night https://vimeo.com/266039814
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Apr 24, 2018 01:22
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kind of impressed at how accurate that was, but lol @ the "do you want access" mindgames in hb  e: though they were out of cards
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Apr 24, 2018 03:24
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Paperclip should be banned for the sake of diversity. You need an overwhelming reason (like degenerate Counter Surveillance decks) to be playing anything other than Clippy, who is too good at breaking ICE of any strength and sub count and can't even be dealt with by program trashing outside of Skorpios. It feels like Clippy invalidates huge swaths of the game, including: -Weak Barriers -Strong Barriers -Other Fracters -Program Destruction CMV
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Apr 24, 2018 04:59
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Agreed. Breakers as a whole need to find more design space. The very first breakers that established the expected value of 1c: +1 Str, 1c: Break 1 sub was too good Paperclip is strictly better than that for functionally every value.
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Apr 24, 2018 15:10
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Every time I want to get back into the game, they release some card (Corp or Runner) that is so abjectly broken that I see it in every single deck I play against casually. Overall, that makes it difficult for me to get back into the game again. Paperclip is just too good no matter what. Even if they limit it to one per deck, its ability to be installed straight out of your heap pretty much negates that 'drawback' since it's never out of play once you draw it. Both Criminals (Special Order) and Shapers (Test Run, Code Siphon) can tutor for it, which means that its 'disadvatage' of only being one card in your deck is pretty quickly irrelevant and then you can trash it at will, knowing that you'll always have it 'in your pocket' so to speak once you encounter a barrier. And then it's just amazingly efficient on top of that.
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Apr 24, 2018 17:04
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LuiCypher posted:Every time I want to get back into the game, they release some card (Corp or Runner) that is so abjectly broken that I see it in every single deck I play against casually. Overall, that makes it difficult for me to get back into the game again. "One per deck" is a terrible way to balance cards because then it becomes "oops, I got black lotus in my opener I guess I win."
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Apr 24, 2018 18:50
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Elizabeth Mills posted:"One per deck" is a terrible way to balance cards because then it becomes "oops, I got black lotus in my opener I guess I win." Oh, I agree. Maybe for some cards - ones you can't tutor to your hand - it has an impact, but Paperclip is a card you really only need one of in your deck. And as you say, it still doesn't get around the problem of "oops, I got black lotus in my opener I guess I win." In general though, FFG is bad at balancing/banning cards for NetRunner. You don't even need to playtest the game to be able to look at Paperclip and go 'huh, this is really going to break the game'.
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Apr 24, 2018 19:33
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one thing that bugs me is that FFG properly costing influence has been an ongoing problem since forever. You could even argue that like, half or more of the MWL is where it is because of bad influence costing. I'm not saying 5 cost paperclip would fix it (anarch is already the most popular runner faction, lol) but it would be nice to see really strong power cards in other factions not being banned and bringing their factions down for being too good elsewhere. it makes outliers like paperclip stand out even more.
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Apr 25, 2018 07:21
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Influence is a flawed system anyway. A card that is properly costed when it comes out can be under or over costed in the future. And it is impossible to predict. At this point they need to just follow their gut and hope it works out. Otherwise, that is what the MWL is for.
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Apr 25, 2018 13:40
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Getting back into the game, mostly playing Cache Refresh. I have Devil & Dragon, Council of the Crest, and White Nile. What should be my first purchases out of Red Sand?
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Apr 25, 2018 18:55
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Somberbrero posted:Getting back into the game, mostly playing Cache Refresh. I have Devil & Dragon, Council of the Crest, and White Nile. What should be my first purchases out of Red Sand? Whichever doesn't have two banned cards in it (gently caress Bloo Moose was so good, how did that get by anyone, much less everyone?!)
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Apr 25, 2018 19:33
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Crimson Dust for Aumakua I'd say.
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Apr 25, 2018 19:45
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Rusty Kettle posted:Influence is a flawed system anyway. A card that is properly costed when it comes out can be under or over costed in the future. And it is impossible to predict. At this point they need to just follow their gut and hope it works out. Otherwise, that is what the MWL is for. Regardless of what you believe, the power level of cards is generally known when they're designed (otherwise why are you paying designers) and it should be blatantly obvious that backbreakingly powerful cards like Aumakua and Rumor Mill should not be virtually free to import. The fact that there are so few five-influence cards is crazy to me, anarchs have exactly ONE. Influence is a great way to signal both "this is a signature effect of this faction" and "this effect is unique and should not be ubiquitous" (like SanSan City Grid, Batty and Biotic Labor are) Nobody whoplayed Aumakua or Clippy for more than five minutes in design should've put them anywhere other than 4+ influence
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Apr 25, 2018 20:16
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My real gripe with Paperclip is that it shouldn't be a conspiracy breaker. If it was a regular breaker at 4 to install and 3 influence it would still probably be played everywhere, but at least there would be some argument for playing Corroder (back when Corroder was still around) out of faction. It is still better than Corroder, but at least cost 2 more on install and one more influence, which provided sort of a Zu vs Gordian Blade question when you picked a code breaker. However, WHY IS IT A CONSPIRACY BREAKER??? The other conspiracy breakers are purposefully inefficient, especially on multi-sub ICE. This is (theoretically at least) balanced out by how resilient they are and the click compression to install, and would theoretically mean that FFG realized that the power of conspiracy breakers needed to be checked somehow. So why is the most efficient fracter ever designed, one that would get play in 90% of decks as is, also given the conspiracy boost which basically negates the extra influence (4 inf for 2 Corroders or 3 inf for a renewing Paperclip) and, depending on your econ, reduces or negates the extra install cost (depending on how efficiently you could get 2 credits a click). It makes zero sense at all.
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Apr 25, 2018 20:30
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As an actual game designer, I find it extraordinarily likely that FFG knew how strong cards like Rumor Mill, Paperclip, Bloo moose, etc were when they were released. The designers very likely knew that they “should” have had more influence or something similar. However, a lot of times they have priorities other than just making a purely balanced game. Maybe some higher-ups wanted very splashy cards to get people excited about the game again, especially considering for a little while a lot of people were worried the game was legitimately dead. Maybe research said “hey, players really love Anarch, give them a few exciting new cards in the next couple data packs” and then it’s set in stone unless one of the designers can convince someone otherwise, which can be hard to do if the person making that call signs your checks. I’ve listened to some of the design leads talk in pod casts, and they’ve all seemed fairly in-touch with game design and what is / isn’t strong in netrunner. Sure there have been some mistakes (such as Lucas being convinced players were just playing Weyland wrong) but overall I think it’s very unlikely (if not impossible) that they’d miss so many cards that are such big problems. Which leads me to believe that there are definitely reasons WHY they were designed the way they are, it’s just a matter of trying to decipher what those reasons could be.
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Apr 25, 2018 20:44
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At some point though its not the players' jobs to decipher designer motives, its the players' job to play the game Speaking of which I tried CI for the first time last night and when I Stinson'd out my second Ultraviolet I felt like a bad person
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Apr 25, 2018 20:47
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CodfishCartographer posted:“hey, players really love Anarch, give them a few exciting new cards in the next couple data packs” Players love Anarch because Anarch is where all the powerful cards are. It's self-reinforcing. Also reminder that not only was Sifr broken as poo poo, but it was ONE INFLUENCE. Admittedly, that was a case of ~* somebody *~ overruling Damon who specifically said "  , don't print this!"
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Apr 25, 2018 20:58
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Elizabeth Mills posted:Players love Anarch because Anarch is where all the powerful cards are. It's self-reinforcing. Exactly, just because we (and the designers, according to Damon) notice a problem, doesn’t meant he people paying for the game to get made do. We can all easily see it’s a self-reinforcing cycle, but that doesn’t necessarily mean the decision makers do. It’s frustratingly common in game development.
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Apr 25, 2018 21:09
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I completely understand why imbalanced cards might be printed, or forced out over internal objections. But as a player I'm still going to bitch about them. Actually, I try not to bitch too much. I still really enjoy this game and the playerbase and for the most part even the "bad" cards don't bother me that much. Except Museum. That card can go straight to hell.
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Apr 25, 2018 21:21
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Elizabeth Mills posted:The fact that there are so few five-influence cards is crazy to me, anarchs have exactly ONE. Two Hivemind and BAM
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Apr 25, 2018 21:27
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Voodoofly posted:I completely understand why imbalanced cards might be printed, or forced out over internal objections. But as a player I'm still going to bitch about them. I love NetRunner. A Lot. But their baffling decisions are legitimate things to critique.
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Apr 25, 2018 21:40
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Thanks for the suggestions ya'll.
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Apr 26, 2018 00:21
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Voodoofly posted:My real gripe with Paperclip is that it shouldn't be a conspiracy breaker. If it was a regular breaker at 4 to install and 3 influence it would still probably be played everywhere, but at least there would be some argument for playing Corroder (back when Corroder was still around) out of faction. It is still better than Corroder, but at least cost 2 more on install and one more influence, which provided sort of a Zu vs Gordian Blade question when you picked a code breaker.
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Apr 27, 2018 10:18
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My new fancy glass Kenma ID has made my Kenma deck measurably better in terms of points stolen per game. I mean, I'm still not winning (it's Kenma, after all) but I'm losing in style while not getting skunked.
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Apr 27, 2018 16:26
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Post your best Alice decks plz, have a gnk tomorrow I need to slay
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Apr 27, 2018 16:33
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It's that time again. https://m.imgur.com/gallery/Dyh1XDh
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Apr 29, 2018 02:01
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drat, lots of really cool Adam tech. About time too, since losing E3 Feedback Implants and Overmind from rotation really hurt him. That barrier breaker is brutal, thought who knows if the math checks out on it. e: oh poo poo, new Parasite! Much less abusable now too, although there are probably some kinda shenanigans you can pull with it. At least now you can't instagib ice with it, though. CodfishCartographer fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Apr 29, 2018 |
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Apr 29, 2018 03:22
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There is a painfully obvious difference between Lady and Paperclip. Let me explain you some things: Shaper's best breaker is supposed to be code gate. Anarch's best breaker is supposed to be barrier. Lady broke subs for free. In house they had access to scavenge (also free), clone chip, and Levy. All of which were paired together during the days of PPVP Kate. It turned Barriers which were supposed to be unplesant and taxing for Shapers to break into a low cost of 0-3 credits. It was impossible to actually tax out a Lady and keep a shaper out with barriers, so it just gave them a flat economic bonus. Thats why Lady needed to be chilled out, and frankly with it not being on the MWL list I am surprised that people don't bring it back in. I'd guess its mostly due to clone chip and levy both being restricted, and scavenge losing some of its edge, so shapers prefer to go for paperclip now. Which hey thats the purpose of faction's having strengths at breaking certain types of ice, and influence costs. Is paperclip powerful? Absolutely. However, it still costs a hefty amount to get past several barriers, and if you see an anarch know they're probably on Black Orchestra and laugh as they struggle to break miserably high strength code gates. Or feel happy in playing Seidr Adaptive Barrier in a jinja city grid deck and watch even anarch's powerful econ fail to make repeated runs. Don't forget that when you boil it all down, ice is an economic roadblock nothing more, and Paperclip is nowhere near the most efficient breaker we've seen in the game's lifespan. 
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Apr 29, 2018 04:32
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Dull Fork posted:Is paperclip powerful? Absolutely. However, it still costs a hefty amount to get past several barriers, and if you see an anarch know they're probably on Black Orchestra and laugh as they struggle to break miserably high strength code gates. Or feel happy in playing Seidr Adaptive Barrier in a jinja city grid deck and watch even anarch's powerful econ fail to make repeated runs. Don't forget that when you boil it all down, ice is an economic roadblock nothing more, and Paperclip is nowhere near the most efficient breaker we've seen in the game's lifespan. Except this is quite definitively the core of the complaint. When it comes to Fracters, or hell, pretty much every subtype, Paperclip is economically advantageous, and is one of the most efficient breakers that not only doesn’t come with a downside (seeing as next obvious stop on this train of thought is Yogtown) but comes with an additional upside as a Conspiracy breaker. There’s a pretty solid theory it was subject to sexing up as per Sifr, and that’s why it has subtler different (read: flat better in all circumstances) text to the other two. There is no Fracter currently as good as Corroder, and Paperclip is flat better than Corroder was. The sole exception was Lady, and as you correctly note, Lady has waned because it’s primary method of support (Clone Chip) lock you out of the two Shaper power choices of Critic or Mopus.
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Apr 29, 2018 06:18
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Masvingo looks like the return of Tyrant except not loving terrible. Will probably be used as a cheaper option out of SSO or in BoN. I might experiment with it and Oduduwa to create a nightmare from which Paperclip will not escape.
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Apr 29, 2018 10:17
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Hm, is Jackpot going to need errata? RAW it seems like you can install it, immediately take ten thousand credits from it and trash it. Or is there a general rule that numbers of things on cards can't go negative?
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Apr 30, 2018 12:12
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Zephro posted:Hm, is Jackpot going to need errata? RAW it seems like you can install it, immediately take ten thousand credits from it and trash it. Or is there a general rule that numbers of things on cards can't go negative? What kind of crazy reading is that? It says you take credits from Jackpot. If there are no credits on Jackpot, you can't take them. It works exactly the same way as Bank Job or Stimhack. The only number that has ever gone negative is ICE strength, which hasn't been a relevant factor in forever (and might never have been tbh). I don't think anything else has can legally go into negative numbers. Discounted cards from things like Career Fair only ever go down to zero, they don't make credits back.
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Apr 30, 2018 12:42
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The Deleter posted:What kind of crazy reading is that? It says you take credits from Jackpot. If there are no credits on Jackpot, you can't take them. It works exactly the same way as Bank Job or Stimhack. I mean I'm not really being serious and obviously no-one is going to try to claim this in an actual match since the intent is obvious, it's just kind of funny. I would have written it as "you may take some or all of the credits on Jackpot" or something like that. edit: it's doubly amusing given the card's name Zephro fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 13:27
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If there are 3 credits on Jackpot! and you try to take 4 credits from it, the first 3 are physically on the card. How do you take a (4th) credit from Jackpot! when there are no credits on it? Also, the trigger for allowing you to take credits from it is adding an agenda to your score area, so I'm not sure how you would install it then immediately try to cash out.
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Apr 30, 2018 13:41
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The Deleter posted:The only number that has ever gone negative is ICE strength, which hasn't been a relevant factor in forever (and might never have been tbh). I don't think anything else has can legally go into negative numbers. Discounted cards from things like Career Fair only ever go down to zero, they don't make credits back. The current UFAQ on RNG Key maintains that a rez cost can go negative, but it just means it rezzes for 0. You don't get credits back from it. I...don't really like that ruling but whatever, it's such a weird edge-case scenario that I've never actually seen it come up outside of the discussion that prompted the UFAQ.
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Apr 30, 2018 15:39
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I think allowing for negatives prior to an actual rez allows you to combine all sorts of +rez costs with -rez costs to dip below zero and come back into the positives before rez. Otherwise you would bottom out at zero. e.g. Printed rez cost 5, discount of 7 (at -2), increase in cost of 3, total of 1 cost. It would otherwise be 5 with a discount of 7, bottoms out at 0, increased by 3, total of 3 cost.
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Apr 30, 2018 15:54
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Yithian posted:If there are 3 credits on Jackpot! and you try to take 4 credits from it, the first 3 are physically on the card. How do you take a (4th) credit from Jackpot! when there are no credits on it?
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Apr 30, 2018 16:38
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Métropole Grid featured an absolutely filthy Haarpsichord deck tonight that leveraged trap with Mwabamza Grid to do some disgusting stuff like gain 10 while hitting the runner with News Team AND Forced Connection AND a TGTBT trigger.Zephro posted:Hm, is Jackpot going to need errata? RAW it seems like you can install it, immediately take ten thousand credits from it and trash it. Sync BRE never meant you accessed 1 fewer card forever, hth Shrecknet fucked around with this message at 07:26 on May 11, 2018 |
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May 11, 2018 07:23
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| # ? Jun 10, 2024 01:34 |
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Are there any decent Freedom Khumalo decks out there? I haven't picked up Whispers yet but I don't know if there's enough playable virus cards now to finally make something like that ID work, kind of interested in anything top players have been able to come up with.
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May 11, 2018 14:33
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