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a.p. dent posted:This is all that needs to be said. Blaming voters makes zero sense and will change nothing, but you get to feel superior, so wheeeeeeeeeeeee For me, it's not even just the pointlessness, but also the fact that not voting isn't an extremely stupid thing. Even though I don't think not voting accomplishes anything, some of the rationales for it aren't crazy and it's completely conceivable why someone would agree with them. Let's take, for example, the argument that "if enough people don't vote, the party will feel the need to change." This is almost certainly wrong, but it's not difficult to understand why someone would come to this conclusion. At the very least, it's certainly not worthy of mockery. An even better one is "I just don't want to give my support to the Democrats." This is just a moral thing, and also completely understandable. Even if I (or someone else) might think it's optimal to treat voting as a solely strategic thing, I can completely understand why someone would dislike the idea of even symbolically supporting a political party they think is strongly immoral. joepinetree posted:If the point if improving people's lives, volunteering in progressive organizations, mutual aid organizations, non-electoral political organizing or for campaigns of candidates trying to push democrats to the left are infinitely better than voting, donating, or campaigning for centrist democrats. Yeah, I've argued with people that the idea of voting as this uniquely important civic duty is kind of strange, in that there are other acts that have a much bigger impact. I think they have good intentions, and I'm not even arguing against voting or saying voting is worthless, but just that it's ridiculous to hold voting on some pedestal like it's the thing you absolutely gotta make sure you do, even if you don't do anything else. botany posted:lol it definitely isn't What are some of the benefits to getting angry at people not voting that you can think of? Do you think that it's going to lead to the percent of people voting increasing? I can sort of understand being upset on a personal level if the non-voter lives in a swing state and you're just venting, but people usually make these arguments without even knowing where the other person lives, and there is definitely nothing wrong with not voting if you live in one of the many states with a virtually-zero chance of being a swing state. edit: A good analogy is attacking someone for eating dinner at a nice restaurant instead of donating that money to charity. In both cases you're talking about an action with both a very small cost and a very small benefit (if anything, I'd say that charity has a bigger benefit, if you're giving it to a good organization). At best, attacking someone for such a thing is "understandable, but pointless." Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 21:04
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Ytlaya posted:What are some of the benefits to getting angry at people not voting that you can think of? Do you think that it's going to lead to the percent of people voting increasing? I can sort of understand being upset on a personal level if someone lives in a swing state and is just venting, but people usually make these arguments without even knowing where the other person lives, and there is definitely nothing wrong with not voting if you live in one of the many states with a virtually-zero chance of being a swing state. "what are some of the benefits of getting angry at racists" gently caress off with this poo poo. telling people that their political actions directly contribute to republicans getting into power is justified in itself. you live in a two party system. get this through your thick goddamn heads.
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Apr 30, 2018 21:08
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Oh cool are we ascribing to that dumbassed position where voter disengagement due to a party actively ignoring their issues or outright loving them over = racism
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Apr 30, 2018 21:13
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Oh Snapple! posted:Oh cool are we ascribing to that dumbassed position where voter disengagement due to a party actively ignoring their issues or outright loving them over = racism no, we are at the point where we are pointing out that it is justified in itself to get mad at objectively immoral positions
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Apr 30, 2018 21:18
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botany posted:"what are some of the benefits of getting angry at racists" gently caress off with this poo poo. telling people that their political actions directly contribute to republicans getting into power is justified in itself. you live in a two party system. get this through your thick goddamn heads. botany posted:no, we are at the point where we are pointing out that it is justified in itself to get mad at objectively immoral positions Lmao
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Apr 30, 2018 21:25
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Radish posted:Look it makes much more sense for thousands of voters to suddenly understand and practice game theory than it does for individual politicians to not be self interested poo poo burgers. lol that you think the voters unaware of game theory are the ones voting third party and not for the better baby bomber like congratulations, you've adopted a strategy that has led to Trump, great game theory, im sure idiot hill voters on these forums will keep blabbering about game theory like their strategies have ever been successful or led to anything but widespread electoral disengagement if you voted Hillary or Trump you're part of the problem not the solution 90s Rememberer fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 21:27
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self unaware posted:lol that you think the voters unaware of game theory are the ones voting third party and not for the better baby bomber Wait are you making the argument that in a FPTP voting system voting third party is the correct way to game it? self unaware posted:if you voted Hillary or Trump you're part of the problem not the solution 
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Apr 30, 2018 21:30
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botany posted:no, we are at the point where we are pointing out that it is justified in itself to get mad at objectively immoral positions not voting for dems is now immoral ok
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Apr 30, 2018 21:32
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Condiv posted:not voting for dems is now immoral yes i'm glad you caught up it only took you like two loving years (edit: in a 2 party system and in the general election, for clarity. primary from the left as hard as you can, then pull the loving lever for any garbage can that has a "D" label)
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Apr 30, 2018 21:33
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Jaxyon posted:Wait are you making the argument that in a FPTP voting system voting third party is the correct way to game it? I'm making the argument that voting for Hillary or Trump does nothing but show your willingness to cede power to the status quo despite both of them being liars who have careers of unethical, immoral and illegal behavior. botany posted:(edit: in a 2 party system and in the general election, for clarity. primary from the left as hard as you can, then pull the loving lever for any garbage can that has a "D" label) Are we still pretending like the Democratic party is incapable of understanding leftist third party votes as discontent with their continued slide to the right? There's always this beautiful thing where third party voter are irrelevant and yet continue to cause the Democrats to lose. Funny how that works.
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Apr 30, 2018 21:36
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botany posted:yes i'm glad you caught up it only took you like two loving years well, i really haven't cause what you just said is incredibly idiotic and we were just discussing how the dems have intentionally closed the "primary from the left" avenue as they're rigging every election they can. why should i pull the lever for the garbage can with a d label if i don't get any say in whether or not it gets to represent me? if the dems wanna have a handful of elites select their candidates then certainly those handful of elites can win the election for said candidate on their own right?
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Apr 30, 2018 21:39
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Condiv posted:not voting for dems is now immoral This makes more sense when you remember that most people here front about caring about an extremely small amount of victimized groups, largely because people from the Middle East/Africa/Central and South America have effectively no presence on these boards and thus 0 weight in their personal calculus of acceptable sacrifices.
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Apr 30, 2018 21:40
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Literally any sacrifice is acceptable. That's the problem with "lesser of two evils" as a voting strategy. People would be bleeting about the gamethorey behind why you should vote for Hitler against Hitler+1 completely unwilling to walk away from the 50 year game of "lesser of two evil" chicken the elites have created for us. Also as long as term limits are a thing voting for a bad dem for 8 years is worse than a bad GOPer for 4 due to the opportunity cost lost.
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Apr 30, 2018 21:42
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Condiv posted:well, i really haven't cause what you just said is incredibly idiotic because it's not about you i realize this is hard to understand for a regressive shithead who whined about not getting a payraise under macron but by all means keep pretending you're a leftist
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Apr 30, 2018 21:43
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botany posted:"what are some of the benefits of getting angry at racists" gently caress off with this poo poo. telling people that their political actions directly contribute to republicans getting into power is justified in itself. you live in a two party system. get this through your thick goddamn heads. Eh I'd say the more damaging racists are the Democratic party elite who would rather see the racists in the Republican Party control the government while they impotently rail against them from their safe blue seats than win elections but on a platform the donors don't like. See also: the Democratic party endlessly helping the worst Republicans (Trump, that killer coalmining exec in WV, etc) get nominated in the hopes Democrats can coast to a win over those guys without doing anything, and not caring what those guys will do to minorities if/when the Democrats gently caress up and lose anyway. Jaxyon posted:Again, your confusing a discussion of voting strategy on a message board with election strategy of the party. Even if you could Jedi mind-meld everyone into always accepting in the Ultimatum Game no matter what unless the offer is exactly 0 (and you can't), the instant you did the Democrats' optimal strategy would be "make the worst offer possible that's still better than the Republicans" because they would already know they'd win no matter what so they are free to pursue the whatever goals are most lucrative to them personally (ie graft, corruption, plutocracy).
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Apr 30, 2018 21:43
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botany posted:because it's not about you Democrat's political slogan for 2020? It's not about you, it's about having bipartisan support for ICE.
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Apr 30, 2018 21:44
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botany posted:because it's not about you Wait isn't Macron leading a full-scale attack on labor rights and trade unions
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Apr 30, 2018 21:45
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VitalSigns posted:Wait isn't Macron leading a full-scale attack on labor rights and trade unions He is, which makes that dumbass personal attack telling as all gently caress.
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Apr 30, 2018 21:45
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VitalSigns posted:Wait isn't Macron leading a full-scale attack on labor rights and trade unions yeah he is, he's a lovely neoliberal. it's still funny to see so-called leftists go all FYGM on these here forums.
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Apr 30, 2018 21:47
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botany posted:because it's not about you yes it's not about me. that's right it's about voting for a party of oligarchs that would eliminate democracy if they could. if you want to make voting a moral act, then voting for people who hate democracy is p much the definition of immoral also, why shouldn't i be upset that my payraise got cancelled by a shithead? how is that regressive? are you seriously that stupid that you think public servants shouldn't be upset about getting stiffed on pay?
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Apr 30, 2018 21:47
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botany posted:yeah he is, he's a lovely neoliberal. it's still funny to see so-called leftists go all FYGM on these here forums. i don't got mine dumbass. i make about 20k a year after taxes. i make so little i qualify for IBR and have no hope of paying off my loans at my current salary. but please tell me more about why i shouldn't be upset that i lost a raise i worked 4 years for cause of a lovely neoliberal
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Apr 30, 2018 21:48
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self unaware posted:I'm making the argument that voting for Hillary or Trump does nothing but show your willingness to cede power to the status quo despite both of them being liars who have careers of unethical, immoral and illegal behavior. One is way worse than the other, one's platform is way worse than the other(unless you're one of those privileged I'm white it doesn't matter how they treat minorities fuckboys). Yes neither is a stellar person but you're talking about game theory, which means you have to pick the best option whether or not you enjoy it. You're basically undercutting your argument because you clearly don't know what others are talking about.
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Apr 30, 2018 21:48
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botany posted:yeah he is, he's a lovely neoliberal. it's still funny to see so-called leftists go all FYGM on these here forums. ahh yes the FYGM of being unwilling to vote for racists who want to continue the ecological disaster that is capitalism while the planet dies
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Apr 30, 2018 21:49
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botany posted:yeah he is, he's a lovely neoliberal. it's still funny to see so-called leftists go all FYGM on these here forums.  Could you explain to me how complaining about a president destroying labor rights is FYGM
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Apr 30, 2018 21:49
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VitalSigns posted:
People have created a mental picture of Condiv as some dudebro making six figgies. Ironically enough, this is largely perpetuated by posters actually making six figures.
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Apr 30, 2018 21:51
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Jaxyon posted:Yes neither is a stellar person but you're talking about game theory, which means you have to pick the best option whether or not you enjoy it. It's like clockwork, ask a liberal to defend voting for Hillary and they go into "game theory" and "there are only two options". As if the Democratic party isn't capable of figuring out what my vote for La Riva meant.
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Apr 30, 2018 21:51
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Condiv posted:yes it's not about me. that's right yeah man, all those dems who would eliminate democracy lmao don't pretend you're in this for anyone but yourself VitalSigns posted:
condiv isn't upset about labor rights, he's upset he didn't get a payraise. there's a difference
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Apr 30, 2018 21:51
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I'm pretty sure condiv held the same opinions before Macron went all-in on loving him and his co-workers.
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Apr 30, 2018 21:53
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botany posted:yeah man, all those dems who would eliminate democracy lmao they literally are in the primaries. they specifically stated that they don't care what the people in the districts of the primaries want, they know better, they've made a decision. and they are acting to enforce those decisions in the primaries. that is literally anti-democratic, and it reveals that if they could, they would do the very same in the GE. sorry, but I don't vote for oligarchs, and the dems have come out clearly and loudly as such. quote:condiv isn't upset about labor rights, he's upset he didn't get a payraise. there's a difference loving  that's one of the reasons i was pissed about hillary in 2016
Condiv fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 21:53
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botany posted:condiv isn't upset about labor rights, he's upset he didn't get a payraise. there's a difference Isn't the latter a consequence of the former.
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Apr 30, 2018 21:54
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reminder that botany is German and most of their ignorance of American politics can be excused like pretending that the erosion of Democratic principles in America hasn't been a fully bipartisan effort i suspect this is a "well the Democrats must be in favor of Democracy" sort of argument
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Apr 30, 2018 21:54
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If I came for a country where I can't even lesser-of-two-evils-it because the ostensibly liberal party puts the conservatives in power every time (except when the liberals lose so hard the conservatives get in power on their own) I'd be broke-brained too.
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Apr 30, 2018 21:56
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Condiv posted:they literally are in the primaries. they specifically stated that they don't care what the people in the districts of the primaries want, they know better, they've made a decision. and they are acting to enforce those decisions in the primaries. that is literally anti-democratic, and it reveals that if they could, they would do the very same in the GE. so what you're saying is that you still don't understand the US two party system but you're really mad and would rather support the GOP than hold your nose. which is exactly what i'm accusing you of. self unaware posted:reminder that botany is German and most of their ignorance of American politics can be excused you're literally too loving stupid to understand medium length sentences don't put my loving name in your mouth
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Apr 30, 2018 21:58
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botany posted:you're literally too loving stupid to understand medium length sentences don't put my loving name in your mouth maybe you have a better explanation for why you could say something so dumb? botany posted:would rather support the GOP than hold your nose lol that brokebrainers keep pushing this line 90s Rememberer fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 21:59
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botany posted:so what you're saying is that you still don't understand the US two party system but you're really mad and would rather support the GOP than hold your nose. which is exactly what i'm accusing you of. i'm not supporting the GOP or the dems by refusing to vote for the dems. my vote is not dem property. and i'm not going to support oligarchy, period. sorry that you don't have one single principle, but i have a few, including not voting for oligarchs that will end democracy, not voting for nazis, etc. also, i see you've dropped the "condiv's fygm for being mad about losing a raise!!! he's so regressive and anti-labor" talking point
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Apr 30, 2018 22:01
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actually you'll find that voting for someone who wants to carpet bomb children was the morally justifiable decision
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Apr 30, 2018 22:03
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Condiv posted:i'm not supporting the GOP or the dems by refusing to vote for the dems. my vote is not dem property. and i'm not going to support oligarchy, period. sorry that you don't have one single principle, but i have a few, including not voting for oligarchs that will end democracy, not voting for nazis, etc. what how have i dropped that, i just didn't mention it in one single post  that point very much still standsand you are supporting the GOP by not voting for dems in the general, because that's what that means in a two party system
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Apr 30, 2018 22:06
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botany posted:what cause you've ignored everything i said in response to that and haven't answered how being paid $20k a year and being upset that i'm not being paid a little more is fygm and anti-labor quote:and you are supporting the GOP by not voting for dems in the general, because that's what that means in a two party system no it's not. over half the nation didn't vote last election, and they were not supporting the GOP by taking that action. the only reason you even make that leap of logic is because you are aligned with the dems, and think every vote should belong to them. and if the dems want to get elected, then they can elect themselves since they want to rig primaries. that's why they won't have and don't need my vote.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:11
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"but that's how a two party system works" screams the german man from across the atlantic ocean
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Apr 30, 2018 22:12
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botany posted:and you are supporting the GOP by not voting for dems in the general, because that's what that means in a two party system I do find the prospect of forcing change while offering unconditional support for the status quo quite fascinating.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:12
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