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OwlFancier posted:If you're suggesting that the left can completely take over the democrats, why on earth in the next breath do you suggest they can never have another party? Do you realize how much would need to change in american politics from where we are now for a 3rd party to be viable? It's a complete pipe dream and we already know that moving Dems to the left is possible because it's happening even though it's happening much too slowly.
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May 1, 2018 21:13
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"guys we have to push the party left, but only in party approved ways that are designed not to work!! otherwise the dems will be forced to let the republicans brutalize minorities!"
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May 1, 2018 21:14
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mcmagic posted:Do you realize how much would need to change in american politics from where we are now for a 3rd party to be viable? mcmagic posted:If voters care enough and are angry enough it doesn't matter.
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May 1, 2018 21:15
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^^^^^ Pretty much. We clearly aren't there right now.
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May 1, 2018 21:16
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mcmagic posted:Do you realize how much would need to change in american politics from where we are now for a 3rd party to be viable? It's a complete pipe dream and we already know that moving Dems to the left is possible because it's happening even though it's happening much too slowly. What do you think will happen to all that monetary backing if the democrats are successfully taken over? Do you think it's going to keep flowing? Because I suspect not. If you want the left to succeed in America you need to break the political system. Because otherwise the exact same forces that force a two party system are going to push the democratic party under in the extremely unlikely event that the left manges to take hold of it. You don't change the political system by voting for the establishment and you won't change it by trying to democratically take them over either.
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May 1, 2018 21:16
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mcmagic posted:Do you realize how much would need to change in american politics from where we are now for a 3rd party to be viable? Again, you make the refrain of the White Moderate. "Too much change too quickly scares me!"
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May 1, 2018 21:16
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Like there's a reason the US is split between the rich fuckers + jeebus party and the rich fuckers + reassuring platitudes party. It's because rich fuckers rule everything in its political system. That needs to change if you want to get an anti rich fucker party in.
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May 1, 2018 21:18
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WampaLord posted:Do you think individual votes actually matter?!? Jesus christ you're focusing so hard on making sure that individual goons vote correctly like that matters in the slightest. I'm arguing what my position on this issue. The gently caress are you doing here? quote:And before you get mad because I dare to take a contrary opinion, I voted for Hillary in Florida so don't even come at me with this "you gotta vote Dem" poo poo, I loving did my part. Why did you? I mean, they're basically exactly the same right, literally no difference in outcome right?
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May 1, 2018 21:19
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OwlFancier posted:What do you think will happen to all that monetary backing if the democrats are successfully taken over? Do you think it's going to keep flowing? Because I suspect not. The centrist position in the democratic party is now a Medicare buy in. That is to the left of what Obama ran on in 2008 which was very much to the left of the party at that time. WampaLord posted:Again, you make the refrain of the White Moderate. "Too much change too quickly scares me!" I'm fine with very quick changes. That just isn't the reality of what is going to happen.
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May 1, 2018 21:19
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mcmagic posted:^^^^^ You are the greatest political theorist of our time
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May 1, 2018 21:20
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Jaxyon posted:Why did you? I mean, they're basically exactly the same right, literally no difference in outcome right? Jesus christ you're so loving bad at arguing your point. Look, I'm not interested in your idea of "well it sucks poo poo but suck it up and keep voting for awful lovely dems because  what if the republicans win " because it leads to nothing ever being fixed. I don't know what the long term solution is, but you are nowhere near it.mcmagic posted:I'm fine with very quick changes. That just isn't the reality of what is going to happen. If you want to give up before you even start, fine with me.
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May 1, 2018 21:20
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WampaLord posted:Jesus christ you're so loving bad at arguing your point. Republicans won and there is an ethnic cleansing squad terrorizing people all over the country. Dismissing that as is loving vile.
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May 1, 2018 21:22
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Jaxyon posted:Why did you? I mean, they're basically exactly the same right, literally no difference in outcome right? because he, like me, believed the lesser of two evils bs until recently. and we've changed our minds after seeing what the dems have done. duh
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May 1, 2018 21:23
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mcmagic posted:Republicans won and there is an ethnic cleansing squad terrorizing people all over the country. Dismissing that as and dems allowed it with barely a whimper of opposition and encouraged it when they were in power. congrats, not as evil isn't good enough if you actually give a drat about these groups
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May 1, 2018 21:24
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mcmagic posted:Republicans won and there is an ethnic cleansing squad terrorizing people all over the country. Dismissing that as Like, do you not think that everything the republicans/democrats do is kind of interlinked? That the actions or inactions of one are the prelude to the actions of the other? And that the problem is maybe letting rich people set the political agenda?
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May 1, 2018 21:24
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Condiv posted:and dems allowed it and encouraged it when they were in power. congrats You are wrong. What is going on now is a whole nother level than what was going on during Obama's term. There is also a fascist on the supreme court for the next 30 years. on that too?OwlFancier posted:Like, do you not think that everything the republicans/democrats do is kind of interlinked? That the actions or inactions of one are the prelude to the actions of the other? There is not one democrat in the country, even the ones i loving despise like Joe Manchin or Corey Booker who would be conducing this.
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May 1, 2018 21:26
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mcmagic posted:Republicans won and there is an ethnic cleansing squad terrorizing people all over the country. Dismissing that as
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May 1, 2018 21:27
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Halloween Jack posted:Obama expanded ICE's powers, but there's no need for you to be aware of that when what you want out of politics is to feel good about yourself. You are being willfully ignorant. Even Obama's bad track record on ICE is NOTHING compared to the terrorism they are engaged in now.
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May 1, 2018 21:28
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mcmagic posted:The centrist position in the democratic party is now a Medicare buy in. That is to the left of what Obama ran on in 2008 which was very much to the left of the party at that time. This only happened because they lost in 2016, and would not have happened had they won on a platform of "better ideas will never happen", so I'm not sure bringing this up is helping your case.
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May 1, 2018 21:28
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WampaLord posted:Again, you make the refrain of the White Moderate. "Too much change too quickly scares me!" As Martin Luther King would have said: WampaLord posted:Do you think individual votes actually matter?!?
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May 1, 2018 21:28
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mcmagic posted:You are being willfully ignorant. Even Obama's bad track record on ICE is NOTHING compared to the terrorism they are engaged in now. Which is only possible because Democrats crossed the aisle to vote against the DREAM Act in 2010 despite enough Republican support for it to pass.
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May 1, 2018 21:29
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mcmagic posted:You are wrong. What is going on now is a whole nother level than what was going on during Obama's term. There is also a fascist on the supreme court for the next 30 years. that doesn't remove dems from responsibility for abandoning dreamers during trumps term. or obama expanding ice and treating immigrants more horribly than bush. like i said, not as evil is not good enough if you actually give a poo poo about these groups. what obama was doing was loving awful. the dems betraying the dreamers during trump's term was loving awful. and supporting them when they're trying to slide FURTHER right in the next elections show just how much you care about these minority groups aside from as a prop to guilt people into agreeing with you.
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May 1, 2018 21:29
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mcmagic posted:There is not one democrat in the country, even the ones i loving despise like Joe Manchin or Corey Booker who would be conducing this. Like, no the reason this is acceptable is because it's been built up to since at least 9/11, and no government since then has tried to stop it, and eight years of that has been under democratic control. And it will continue to be acceptable in some form or another as long as you rely on rich people who will never suffer because of it as the arbiters of political acceptability. We have a similar issue in the UK, where we're currently rounding up black people and shipping them off to jamaica, and this is quite clearly a result of general xenophobic acceptability which has again been fostered by all parties since at least 2001. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:33 on May 1, 2018 |
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May 1, 2018 21:30
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Jaxyon posted:As Martin Luther King would have said: The closest Presidential election in recent memory (2000) was decided by several hundred votes and that was by far the closest we've ever come to that kind of scenario, do you actually think that one vote matters when talking national level politics? Do you actually think that talking to individual goons and making sure they vote right is accomplishing anything? Is that what you think the thread is for?
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May 1, 2018 21:31
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VitalSigns posted:This only happened because they lost in 2016, and would not have happened had they won on a platform of "better ideas will never happen", so I'm not sure bringing this up is helping your case. well that and they're trying to undercut a possible bernie 2020 campaign. and they'll quickly abandon the medicare buy in or hobble it so bad as to be useless, ala the public option for ppaca.
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May 1, 2018 21:32
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WampaLord posted:Jesus christ you're so loving bad at arguing your point. Strategic voting is a short-term strategy, not a long term. I'm beginning to see where you are confused. Condiv posted:because he, like me, believed the lesser of two evils bs until recently. and we've changed our minds after seeing what the dems have done. duh Hahahah upon seeing Trump of all people, you decided there's no difference in the parties? 2016 broke your brain.
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May 1, 2018 21:32
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VitalSigns posted:Which is only possible because Democrats crossed the aisle to vote against the DREAM Act in 2010 despite enough Republican support for it to pass. Did any of those Democrats get punished by their voters?
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May 1, 2018 21:33
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Jaxyon posted:Hahahah upon seeing Trump of all people, you decided there's no difference in the parties? Please stop with this awful strawman argument of "You think both parties are EXACTLY THE SAME?!?"
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May 1, 2018 21:33
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Jaxyon posted:Hahahah upon seeing Trump of all people, you decided there's no difference in the parties? i didn't decide there's no difference. i decided that there's dems not worth supporting. don't be an idiot jaxyon
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May 1, 2018 21:34
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mcmagic posted:Did any of those Democrats get punished by their voters? wait, we're supposed to punish dems with our votes now? i thought you swore up and down we have to never do that? or are you suggesting that republicans should've punished the bad dems since we're not allowed to?
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May 1, 2018 21:34
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Condiv posted:ah ok. so we have to help more of these shitheads get voted in why? I'm for replacing them with democrats who won't vote against the values of their voters.
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May 1, 2018 21:35
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mcmagic posted:I'm for replacing them with democrats who won't vote against the values of their voters. by voting for them? and ignoring that the dems are rigging primaries in favor of them? seems you're not actually very for that
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May 1, 2018 21:37
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WampaLord posted:The closest Presidential election in recent memory (2000) was decided by several hundred votes and that was by far the closest we've ever come to that kind of scenario, do you actually think that one vote matters when talking national level politics? Almost zero elections are decided by 1 vote. So uh, thanks for the lesson that it takes more than one vote to win an election, I'm sure MLK would have backed you up on the whole "personal politics doesn't matter" line of thought I guess? quote:Do you actually think that talking to individual goons and making sure they vote right is accomplishing anything? Is that what you think the thread is for? Do you actually think talking to individual goons will accomplish election reform. Is that what you think this thread is for?
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May 1, 2018 21:37
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Condiv posted:by voting for them? and ignoring that the dems are rigging primaries in favor of them? seems you're not actually very for that Your premise is that it's impossible to win primaries because they are rigged, is bullshit.
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May 1, 2018 21:39
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Jaxyon posted:Do you actually think talking to individual goons will accomplish election reform. Is that what you think this thread is for? No, unlike you I realize that posting here accomplishes literally nothing Jaxyon posted:Almost zero elections are decided by 1 vote. So uh, thanks for the lesson that it takes more than one vote to win an election, I'm sure MLK would have backed you up on the whole "personal politics doesn't matter" line of thought I guess? That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying literally individual voters DO NOT MATTER when it comes to national elections, please don't speculate any further than that fact. E: VVV Not what I'm saying, but keep up the strawmanning, makes you look very rational
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May 1, 2018 21:39
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Loving people trying to reference letters from a birmingham jail by Martin "Voting is the foundation stone for political action." Luther King Jr to explain why not voting is actually the wokest course of action.
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May 1, 2018 21:40
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mcmagic posted:Your premise is that it's impossible to win primaries because they are rigged, is bullshit. not impossible, just much much much less likely. which is all that needs to happen. the dems will abandon or destroy any leftists who make it out of the primaries
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May 1, 2018 21:41
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Jaxyon posted:Loving people trying to reference letters from a birmingham jail by Martin "Voting is the foundation stone for political action." Luther King Jr to explain why not voting is actually the wokest course of action. I never said to not vote, don't you put loving words in my mouth.
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May 1, 2018 21:42
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Jaxyon posted:Loving people trying to reference letters from a birmingham jail by Martin "Voting is the foundation stone for political action." Luther King Jr to explain why not voting is actually the wokest course of action. Actually voting for communists is the wokest course of action. Voting for a liberal? Feh.
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May 1, 2018 21:42
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WampaLord posted:No, unlike you I realize that posting here accomplishes literally nothing Yeah I really thought I was changing the world here, you definitely have the more galaxy brain take, clever person. quote:That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying literally individual voters DO NOT MATTER when it comes to national elections, please don't speculate any further than that fact. Actually they do, in groups. Or do you think there's a "group vote" button and a "individual vote" button? Holy poo poo are you dumb. Like, inidvidual votes matter when you manage to suppress 40k voters. That's 40k individual votes.
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May 1, 2018 21:42
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