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I get called a moron in the Trump thread because I argue for primarying a lot of Dems by people scared of losing seats....Condiv posted:not impossible, just much much much less likely. which is all that needs to happen. the dems will abandon or destroy any leftists who make it out of the primaries If progressives win the CA or NY primary, they will win the election.
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May 1, 2018 21:43
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Jaxyon posted:Loving people trying to reference letters from a birmingham jail by Martin "Voting is the foundation stone for political action." Luther King Jr to explain why not voting is actually the wokest course of action. loving you trying to coopt martin luther king jr while stanning for oligarchs that would strip away our ability to make a change with our votes.
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May 1, 2018 21:44
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WampaLord posted:I never said to not vote, don't you put loving words in my mouth. But individual votes don't matter! This is an important distinction because
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May 1, 2018 21:44
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Jaxyon posted:Holy poo poo are you dumb. Like, inidvidual votes matter when you manage to suppress 40k voters. That's 40k individual votes. A GROUP OF 40,000 IS NOT AN INDIVIDUAL VOTE Yea, I'm the dumb one. Jaxyon posted:But individual votes don't matter! This is an important distinction because Jesus loving christ what are you even arguing anymore? "Suck it up and vote lovely dem" is the only coherent point I've seen you manage to vomit out.
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May 1, 2018 21:44
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mcmagic posted:If progressives win the CA or NY primary, they will win the election. maybe, but without the dem party's assistance, and quite possibly with the dem party trying to destroy their chances.
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May 1, 2018 21:45
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Condiv posted:loving you trying to coopt martin luther king jr while stanning for oligarchs that would strip away our ability to make a change with our votes. Lol are you so stupid that you don't realize that people were quoting MLK already to try and argue for not voting or protest voting?
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May 1, 2018 21:45
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mcmagic posted:Did any of those Democrats get punished by their voters? Some did, some didn't. Notable that the party is supporting Manchin against his primary opponent even though Manchin is a racist who will ensure that nothing is done for the DREAMers even in the unlikely scenario that Democrats get another senate supermajority and the even more unlikely scenario that no other Democrats in that potential supermajority are also racists who will also want to deport the DREAMers. In other words, the Party would rather protect the ability of Republican Presidents to deport DREAMers than let progressives win, some allies.
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May 1, 2018 21:45
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Jaxyon posted:Lol are you so stupid that you don't realize that people were quoting MLK already to try and argue for not voting or protest voting? Again, not what I was arguing. 0/10, sloppy work, please try again.
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May 1, 2018 21:46
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I for one, think MLK would have posted to internet forums about how far left he is and how working in local politics is basically worthless.
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May 1, 2018 21:47
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Jaxyon posted:Lol are you so stupid that you don't realize that people were quoting MLK already to try and argue for not voting or protest voting? protest voting is an exercise of the right to vote, in an attempt to affect change. you on the other hand are advocating for supporting and never voting for anyone but oligarchs who would like our votes to be totally meaningless and incapable of affecting change.
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May 1, 2018 21:47
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VitalSigns posted:Some did, some didn't. Manchin should be kicked out of the conference and he shouldn't get any support from the party for his reelection. I'd said that multiple times.
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May 1, 2018 21:47
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Jaxyon posted:I for one, think MLK would have posted to internet forums about how far left he is and how working in local politics is basically worthless. You keep having fun battling that strawman buddy
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May 1, 2018 21:48
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mcmagic posted:Manchin should be kicked out of the conference and he shouldn't get any support from the party for his reelection. I'd said that multiple times. and yet you insist that we vote for him if he's on the GE ballot.
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May 1, 2018 21:48
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WampaLord posted:You keep having fun battling that strawman buddy I do appreciate the balls/ovaries it takes post this after what you and others have already posted here.
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May 1, 2018 21:50
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mcmagic posted:You are being willfully ignorant. Even Obama's bad track record on ICE is NOTHING compared to the terrorism they are engaged in now. Perhaps the most exasperating trait of liberals is the way you smugly claim to be in command of the facts when you have the political memory of a puppy wondering where the shiny ball went. (It's in Rahm Emmanuel's back pocket.)
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May 1, 2018 21:51
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Condiv posted:and yet you insist that we vote for him if he's on the GE ballot. Yes, you should vote for him in the general. I'm unconvinced that a republican winning that seat would be better for any of the policy outcomes that I want.
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May 1, 2018 21:52
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Jaxyon posted:I do appreciate the balls/ovaries it takes post this after what you and others have already posted here. we didn't post that local political action is worthless. nor have i seen people posting about how far left they are. so maybe you should get your eyes examined?
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May 1, 2018 21:53
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An important thing to take into account is that, as the Democrats are now, electing them is almost a guarantee of a Republican president at the end of the current president's term (or at least Republican control over most of the government). So it's not a matter of if we have Republicans in charge, but just when. And at the end of the day, individuals choosing not to vote for the sort of reasons listed in this thread are not what's dictating this. You can talk about how bad Republicans are (and be correct about that) until you're blue in the face, but people randomly choosing not to vote for any blame-worthy reason isn't what causes them to get into office. Among the reasons for lower voter involvement, leftists who think "both sides are just as bad" are pretty much at the bottom of the list. As long as general sentiment among Americans is negative, you're likely to continue to see the federal government swing between Republican and Democratic control (with probably more time overall going to Republicans due to how they've gerrymandered). If you really cared about Republicans gaining power, you'd be far, far more angry with the Democratic Party (and other influential/powerful organizations), because it has considerably more control over how it performs in elections. As I said before, someone refusing to support the Democrats because the Democrats are quite literally a "lesser evil" is, at worst, "understandably wrong." I don't see what's so hard to understand about someone not wanting to give any sort of support to bad people*, and given this particular rationale isn't actually responsible for electoral results I don't see any point in being so irritated and angry with it (unless, of course, the person in question just has a bone to pick with the radical left). * Think of it this way; would you get mad at a minority who chose not to vote in an election where both candidates were openly racist? Maybe you would think it's still wrong for them to not vote for the lesser evil, but surely you wouldn't actually get angry with them? The exact same is true for "literally anyone who is disadvantaged in any way" and voting for the Democrats or Republicans, since both those groups are hostile to them to different degrees.
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May 1, 2018 21:53
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mcmagic posted:Yes, you should vote for him in the general. I'm unconvinced that a republican winning that seat would be better for any of the policy outcomes that I want. and yet you insist we vote for manchin, who is more republican than some republicans.
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May 1, 2018 21:53
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Condiv posted:and yet you insist we vote for manchin, who is more republican than some republicans. How does not voting for him in the GENERAL advance any of the policy outcomes I want? What does that look like?
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May 1, 2018 21:55
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Local action can be quite useful, I would dispute how useful it is if you manage to get everyone to just vote democrat whatever though.
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May 1, 2018 21:56
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Condiv posted:we didn't post that local political action is worthless. nor have i seen people posting about how far left they are. so maybe you should get your eyes examined? I didn't *checks notes* say to "never vote for anyone but corporate oligarchs" but here we are. Man it's neat that you notice the strawmen of your position, but he ones you do to others are just simple truth, eh?
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May 1, 2018 21:56
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mcmagic posted:Yes, you should vote for him in the general. I'm unconvinced that a republican winning that seat would be better for any of the policy outcomes that I want. Im not going to vote in the new york primary or general election out of protest
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May 1, 2018 21:57
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mcmagic posted:How does not voting for him in the GENERAL advance any of the policy outcomes I want? What does that look like? one less bad dem to rig primaries against progressives and lock progressives out of power. how does voting for him in the general advance any of the policy outcomes you want? oh yeah, it doesn't unless you're a racist, love raising drug prices, want to get rid of abortion, hate lgbtq, minorities, etc.
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May 1, 2018 21:57
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Control Volume posted:Im not going to vote in the new york primary or general election out of protest Then you're part of the problem.
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May 1, 2018 21:57
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mcmagic posted:Then you're part of the problem. Thats actually untrue. My vote has no impact in the new york election.
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May 1, 2018 21:58
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Jaxyon posted:I didn't *checks notes* say to "never vote for anyone but corporate oligarchs" but here we are. by insisting that we vote for dems at all times you are indeed saying to vote for oligarchs. and you're saying to support them in their attempts to destroy democracy by giving them political power
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May 1, 2018 21:59
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Condiv posted:one less bad dem to rig primaries against progressives and lock progressives out of power. If you 're already past the chance to get rid of him in the primary, his vote is still better than any republican.
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May 1, 2018 21:59
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Control Volume posted:Thats actually untrue. My vote has no impact in the new york election. It's alot of people thinking this that is going to be the reason Cuomo isn't going to be replaced by a better democrat. Congrats.
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May 1, 2018 22:00
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mcmagic posted:Manchin should be kicked out of the conference and he shouldn't get any support from the party for his reelection. I'd said that multiple times. Sure ok, and until this happens then the party can't claim to support immigrants because they are actively opposed to passing the DREAM Act. Like there are some arguments for voting Dem that make sense, the Medicaid expansion, for example. But "Republicans are deporting immigrants" is not one because even when Democrats have a supermajority they conspire to make sure immigrants have no legal path to staying in the country, and their backing of racists in party primaries ensures that any theoretical supermajority will also keep childhood arrivals as a rightless underclass whose plight can be exploited for votes even though this means those immigrants will be deported the instant Democrats lose a presidential election which is inevitable at some point.
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May 1, 2018 22:01
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Condiv posted:by insisting that we vote for dems at all times you are indeed saying to vote for oligarchs. and you're saying to support them in their attempts to destroy democracy by giving them political power I did neither of those things. Like, do you believe these strawmen or are you breaking with reality?
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May 1, 2018 22:02
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mcmagic posted:If you 're already past the chance to get rid of him in the primary, his vote is still better than any republican. no, it really isn't. if you cared about the groups you claimed you care about you wouldn't spout such idiocy. and the dems are prepping a fresh batch of manchins (or you can call them joneses if you please) for the 2018 elections.
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May 1, 2018 22:02
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Condiv posted:no, it really isn't. if you cared about the groups you claimed you care about you wouldn't spout such idiocy. and the dems are prepping a fresh batch of manchins (or you can call them joneses if you please) for the 2018 elections. It is better. He voted against the Tax Bill and against the ACA Repeal. He can be a vile racist piece of poo poo and still be better than any republican. You have to take reality as it is.
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May 1, 2018 22:03
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mcmagic posted:It's alot of people thinking this that is going to be the reason Cuomo isn't going to be replaced by a better democrat. Congrats. If theyre anything like me, those people wont have an impact in the new york election either
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May 1, 2018 22:04
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mcmagic posted:It is better. He voted against the Tax Bill and against the ACA Repeal. He can be a vile racist piece of poo poo and still be better than any republican. You have to take reality as it is. Immigrants are expendable, got it thanks "ally"
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May 1, 2018 22:04
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Jaxyon posted:I did neither of those things. Like, do you believe these strawmen or are you breaking with reality? Jaxyon posted:Nobody, but that poster specifically said withholding votes was a strategy. don't try to gaslight me jaxyon, you've been pushing the lesser evil strategy the whole time. so yes, you did insist we give support to oligarchs. hth mcmagic posted:It is better. He voted against the Tax Bill and against the ACA Repeal. He can be a vile racist piece of poo poo and still be better than any republican. You have to take reality as it is. not enough no. i'm sure all the minorities that are in ice detention centers will thank him for protecting the ACA for them though
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May 1, 2018 22:06
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VitalSigns posted:Immigrants are expendable, got it thanks "ally" Condiv posted:
A republican winning that seat would not be better for immigrants.
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May 1, 2018 22:06
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mcmagic posted:A republican winning that seat would not be better for immigrants. it wouldn't in the short term, but it might mean the dems could be reformed. bad dems like manchin hanging on to power means no reform to the dems, and they keep getting worse for immigrants. again, nice try using them as a shield while supporting a racist.
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May 1, 2018 22:08
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mcmagic posted:A republican winning that seat would not be better for immigrants. It would be the same for immigrants. That's a bad thing that the party is supporting the Republican position on immigrants, mcmagic.
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May 1, 2018 22:09
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Condiv posted:don't try to gaslight me jaxyon, you've been pushing the lesser evil strategy the whole time. so yes, you did insist we give support to oligarchs. hth What you posted is not me saying: Condiv posted:by insisting that we vote for dems at all times you are indeed saying to vote for oligarchs. and you're saying to support them in their attempts to destroy democracy by giving them political power I've highlighted the weasel words you've added to my arguments. That's a strawman. I'm going with B at this point, that you don't even realize you're doing this.
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May 1, 2018 22:09
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