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Well yeah the point of that stuff is that it isn't even worth considering, if you choose to invest into shields. Choosing shields vs poo poo-that-doesnt-work-with-shields is a build decision. Do I want exe axes and arbalests, or do I want broad axes and hand crossbows plus more defenses?
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May 3, 2018 00:47
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Implement those weird notched shields crossbowmen used to set down and hide behind while they shot people
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May 3, 2018 03:00
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Bringing back thrown spears and hand axes is a really really bad idea. It's the sort of HOM bullshit that was removed for a good reason. No no no no no.
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May 3, 2018 04:34
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Permit quivering and throwing absolutely all melee weapons without exception.
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May 3, 2018 04:47
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A god power to throw weapons would be cool. Would require some weird restrictions to make it not unfun to manage your inventory though.
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May 3, 2018 04:49
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Fixing the melee math is a drat good idea, tho. Melee damage being a rand(1 to x+1) function instead of stacked ydx's is absolute bullshit. That you can do between 1dmg and 100dmg per swing at level 27 & skill 27 is quite possibly the dumbest idea in gaming history. Particularly since spell damage works on a ydx+z system, where y, x, & z depend on skill & ability score. And accuracy is somehow worse.
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May 3, 2018 04:50
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cheetah7071 posted:A god power to throw weapons would be cool. Would require some weird restrictions to make it not unfun to manage your inventory though. dungeonmans already did it also Speleothing posted:Bringing back thrown spears and hand axes is a really really bad idea. It's the sort of HOM bullshit that was removed for a good reason. god i remember picking up every dagger in the early dungeon back when i was learning how to play this game in high school i think it took me a few months to find out i could eat people i feel no actual nostalgia for whatever version that was tho, throwing melee weapons was tedious as gently caress lmao
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May 3, 2018 06:10
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Well, that took awhile to get a NaVm going, but I eventually got singularity up and running, and I can see why it was removed from mainline crawl, good god is this spell overpowered as it is currently. Killing things from out of max vision range while simultaneously attracting their attention is a hilarious combination. I probably could've kept going on from after that +1 zig but I got bored.
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May 3, 2018 07:00
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Einwand posted:Well, that took awhile to get a NaVm going, but I eventually got singularity up and running, and I can see why it was removed from mainline crawl, good god is this spell overpowered as it is currently. Killing things from out of max vision range while simultaneously attracting their attention is a hilarious combination. I probably could've kept going on from after that +1 zig but I got bored. Do you think that making Singularity fail to affect things if you can't see them (ala the way summons work right now) would be enough to balance it, or does it need more than that? EDIT: And maybe you also need to be able to see the Singularity itself, not totally sure how it should work
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May 3, 2018 07:09
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I think just having it actually be a summon really doesn't work, even if it only worked up to your LoS you can still place it somewhere and have enemies attack it instead of you while constantly being pulled towards it and taking massive physical damage. At worst you could still use it to permanently clog up a hallway while killing anything trying to get at you. I mean, it is a level 9 spell in a tree that is mostly utility/survival tools up to that point, so it should be really strong, but it does literally everything with no downside. Einwand fucked around with this message at 07:20 on May 3, 2018 |
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May 3, 2018 07:16
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it should have a chance of being clogged any time it kills an enemy
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May 3, 2018 07:35
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I could have swore we bandied about the idea of having ranged weapons be perma-holstered and easy to use to mitigate tedium of weapon switching. I think it was in the same breath as ditching ammo and instead using quivers that were infinite but had to recharge. Either way, I'd be way more in favour of a method that didn't rely on key bindings and tricks to make it actually not-annoying because there are tons of cool ranged weapons that I usually just ignore because of how much easier it is to walk up to something and smack it with something giant and sharp.
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May 3, 2018 15:28
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id be in favor of shields still blocking 2h ranged weapons tho
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May 3, 2018 15:59
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Tollymain posted:id be in favor of shields still blocking 2h ranged weapons tho How about firing a holestered 2h ranged weapon sets your SH to 0 for the next turn? My problem is that once you invest the considerable skill levels into shields it's almost never worth taking them off, not to mention the tedium. You can do okay with thrown; you don't need arbalests, but it's a question of if the limitation really adds anything but getting railroaded into the only secondary option your primary choice decides for you. I agree the 1 turn SH shutoff might be necessary for balancing the fact you could otherwise machinegun nest everything from behind shield (again though, not like Thrown weapons don't allow that, though, but whatever), but if we allow quickdrawing arbalest just by the way while you're still ready to swing your massive 2 hand maul the next turn then shields shouldn't demand a massive delay they take to unwear to make use of them either. Teal fucked around with this message at 17:03 on May 3, 2018 |
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May 3, 2018 16:59
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Usable without wielding *is* kind of throwing's reason for existing, especially for non-large rock races.
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May 3, 2018 17:25
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i just feel like gaining access to the SH stat in amounts beyond what an amulet can give you is a fair tradeoff for not being able to use the most powerful ranged weapons i guess
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May 3, 2018 17:33
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In all honesty, I think shields blocking bows and crossbows (and the fustibalus or whatever) is perfectly fine. I do feel that one should be able to use a buckler (or a regular shield for Large characters) and bow/crossbow with minimal or no penalty, but larger shields blocking the heavy-hitting ranged weapons always seemed entirely reasonable to me.Teal posted:I agree the 1 turn SH shutoff might be necessary for balancing the fact you could otherwise machinegun nest everything from behind shield (again though, not like Thrown weapons don't allow that, though, but whatever), but if we allow quickdrawing arbalest just by the way while you're still ready to swing your massive 2 hand maul the next turn then shields shouldn't demand a massive delay they take to unwear to make use of them either. I think one possible issue with that is that bigger shields also have a fairly hefty EV penalty, and allowing shields to basically quickswap on and off could encourage weird tedious HOM behaviour involving quickswapping the shield off for better stealth to explore and quickswapping it on when an enemy turned up, wanting to quickswap the shield off for better EV to close with enemies that use projectiles that can't be blocked, etc. etc. I don't particularly care either way since I rarely use shields, but it does seem like a weird design conflict that would need to be addressed. Personally I think shields could use a slight buff since "kill everything before it damages you" is pretty much always preferable to "kill everything a bit slower, but have a chance to maybe not take as much damage while you chip away at it," especially in the endgame when stuff like Damnation, Torment, and Pan Lord spells become a concern. So maybe something like that could work. Who knows? Not me!
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May 3, 2018 17:56
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The Crawl obsession with designing so that there is nothing a HOM could do that's more optimal than something simple and boring feels like its getting out of hand tbh. Like if people really want to obsessively do that poo poo... let them? Who cares.
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May 3, 2018 17:59
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a lot of games do a dichotomy where you pick between a big shield and 'dedicated' ranged weaponry as like an accompaniment so honestly i feel it could work for crawl
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May 3, 2018 17:59
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Zore posted:The Crawl obsession with designing so that there is nothing a HOM could do that's more optimal than something simple and boring feels like its getting out of hand tbh. It's very important to remember that making "who cares, it's your own fault if you do unfun stuff" design decisions like this sometimes has an unexpected knock-on effect on the accessibility (and ultimately enjoyability, for many users) of challenging games like Crawl - if a newer player is having trouble getting past Lair and hears about tactics like this, they're going to try employing them because they want to get better at the game and get further in it, and then, because that's boring as poo poo, they're going to start to feel like Crawl is a game that you can only win if you play in a boring optimal fashion. Nipping that sort of thing in the bud ensures that the inevitable "why do I keep dying, what the gently caress am I doing wrong" leads to an "ohhhh" moment when the player starts to pick up genuinely useful and important tricks and tactics, instead of either giving up the game or just splatting over and over because they found a way to get further but it sucked and they can't be bothered with it. e: like I definitely agree that the Hypothetical Optimal Man is something of a bogeyman, but the Hypothetical Clueless Man doesn't know that, and the Hypothetical Clueless Man deserves a chance to enjoy this fun and challenging absolute bastard death game on his own terms without having to wade through a bunch of stupid streaker tactics in search of the actually practical and not horribly unfun tactics. Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 18:08 on May 3, 2018 |
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May 3, 2018 18:06
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While thrown weapons shouldn't be brought back (as much as I liked daggers and hand-axes of returning) we could possibly make an unrandart javelin or so that has a higher damage and returning with a 100% chance of return.
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May 3, 2018 18:09
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Angry Diplomat posted:I think one possible issue with that is that bigger shields also have a fairly hefty EV penalty, and allowing shields to basically quickswap on and off could encourage weird tedious HOM behaviour involving quickswapping the shield off for better stealth to explore and quickswapping it on when an enemy turned up, wanting to quickswap the shield off for better EV to close with enemies that use projectiles that can't be blocked, etc. etc. I don't particularly care either way since I rarely use shields, but it does seem like a weird design conflict that would need to be addressed. I'm suggesting you just lose your SH stat for the turn; no reimbursement of encumb or anything, just "blocks don't happen while you're shooting". It's 100% automatic, and it's still a straight buff to shields as your other alternative is to unwield which takes ages. HOM can't squeeze any advantage from it other than all ranged weapons become available besides the Thrown and onehand ones. Again the thing I'm feeling so strongly about this is that if I run into an urandart arbalest or bow and already sunk 15XL into Shields it's an item that might have literally not spawned; there's basically no way I can utilize it without seriously hazarding the current build; even if I go and now train Crossbows I'm always going to be dragging that Shield skill lugage which, in a game with limited amount of exp available in any given run, is a distinct disadvantage. It's not that I can't decide if I want to use shields or not, it's that a massive factor of the game is the random drops, and I think that if a late game drop turns out to be a hair pulling "I loving wish I didn't decide to go with shields" it's kinda a bummer. And before you argue that's already a thing with weapon classes, consider that training Shields not only locks away all bows and most crossbows, but also all instances of 2H weapons and particularly spicy high level magic finds, whereas with regular weapons without shields you're also crosstraining into another category and you're also not sinking your skill points into Shield+Melee Class but just one Melee class. Shields just seem exceptionally punishing in how much poo poo they basically deny you from ever using, and if we make ranged weapons less of a chore to use, we might as well cut Shields some slack, no? World Famous W posted:While thrown weapons shouldn't be brought back (as much as I liked daggers and hand-axes of returning) we could possibly make an unrandart javelin or so that has a higher damage and returning with a 100% chance of return. That's a good idea; I don't even think 100% chance of return is necessary, it just must never mulch.
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May 3, 2018 18:11
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Angry Diplomat posted:It's very important to remember that making "who cares, it's your own fault if you do unfun stuff" design decisions like this sometimes has an unexpected knock-on effect on the accessibility (and ultimately enjoyability, for many users) of challenging games like Crawl - if a newer player is having trouble getting past Lair and hears about tactics like this, they're going to try employing them because they want to get better at the game and get further in it, and then, because that's boring as poo poo, they're going to start to feel like Crawl is a game that you can only win if you play in a boring optimal fashion. On the other hand it also leads to things where we can't put in fun things like Wu Jian because people were so mad it might be optimal to do something other than tab literally every fight that all martial maneuvers had to be worse than tabbing. Like sometimes things can be complicated or tedious but I don't think the solution to that should always be 'so make it so that hitting one button to slam your face into the enemy is always more optimal'. Zore fucked around with this message at 18:15 on May 3, 2018 |
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May 3, 2018 18:13
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It's almost as though there's a fun game lurking somewhere in that middle ground, and immediately scornfully rejecting the notion of the HOM is as dumb as immediately scornfully rejecting anything the HOM could potentially get his filthy tentacles on. I personally think WJC is fantastic right now, and offers a great god choice for melee-oriented characters who want to keep their lategame build options open but don't want to default to Okawaru Yet Again. Teal posted:I'm suggesting you just lose your SH stat for the turn; no reimbursement of encumb or anything, just "blocks don't happen while you're shooting". It's 100% automatic, and it's still a straight buff to shields as your other alternative is to unwield which takes ages. HOM can't squeeze any advantage from it other than all ranged weapons become available besides the Thrown and onehand ones. I guess I'm less prone to feeling this way because I often play ogres, so like 80% of all equipment drops are like that for me  Teal posted:And before you argue that's already a thing with weapon classes, consider that training Shields not only locks away all bows and most crossbows, but also all instances of 2H weapons and particularly spicy high level magic finds, whereas with regular weapons without shields you're also crosstraining into another category and you're also not sinking your skill points into Shield+Melee Class but just one Melee class. I do sympathize with this, though - like I said above, shields have felt kind of undertuned for a long time, at least in my experience. They can work well in conjunction with certain builds, but usually as something you opportunistically dip into later on, once your core making-things-die strategy is solidly in place. Building for weapon-and-shield from the start doesn't really offer much of anything at all, right now, since it narrows down your options so much. Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 18:19 on May 3, 2018 |
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May 3, 2018 18:15
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I don't like SH to zero while shooting. I don't like invisible buffs and debuffs. For years your EV went to zero while using stairs and when it got removed the thread reaction was "wait that existed? "
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May 3, 2018 18:24
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I don't understand that counterpoint with weapons classes - they strictly lock you out of more things by virtue of there being a bunch of weapon classes. "All 2-handed weapons" is a smaller class than "all non-swords", which includes most 2-handed and 1-handed weapons. The cross-training effect is kinda minimal and you're still not really likely to switch weapon types, even if you have cross-training. If crawl is to have permanent character build decisions, it's to have permanent character build decisions and I think shields vs triple crossbows is a fine one. The same also holds with spell schools that are redundant, you're similarly gimping yourself if you train multiple overlapping spell schools, like fire and ice. It's sort of the nature of a game with permanent build decisions - focusing on one option makes using the others less attractive.
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May 3, 2018 18:26
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I don't understand that counterpoint with weapons classes - they strictly lock you out of more things by virtue of there being a bunch of weapon classes. "All 2-handed weapons" is a smaller class than "all non-swords", which includes most 2-handed and 1-handed weapons. The cross-training effect is kinda minimal and you're still not really likely to switch weapon types, even if you have cross-training. If crawl is to have permanent character build decisions, it's to have permanent character build decisions and I think shields vs triple crossbows is a fine one. Plenty of poo poo actually does give situational options, though. By training Fire and Ice you've got a better chance you're not gonna run into something that'll be resistant to both. Midgame swap from Axes to Maces will be comparatively cheap, wasted XL wise. Shields as items and Shields as skill are abnormally intense in narrowing down your other options, both build and momentary tactics wise when you're in a pickle. I'm not trying to make the choice inconsequential, just bit less drastic, because right now it does seem pretty drastic. cheetah7071 posted:I don't like SH to zero while shooting. I don't like invisible buffs and debuffs. For years your EV went to zero while using stairs and when it got removed the thread reaction was "wait that existed? " "Taking aim prevented you from blocking that strike!" Teal fucked around with this message at 18:48 on May 3, 2018 |
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May 3, 2018 18:44
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generally speaking although i could swap to another weapon class after investing 14-18 levels in the one, i feel id be better served spending that xp on something else instead like defenses or getting a spell castable or literally anything else other than wasting xp for a marginal increase unless you're playing a gnoll, each skill you invest xp in will narrow your character down. if i put 16 levels in armour im gonna stay in heavier armour even if i find a neat robe. shields are literally an entire defensive stat strapped to your arm, being unable to hotswap them is not an overly restrictive condition considering what theyre giving you. if you dont like the downsides dont invest the skill, its not like you have to invest in shields in the early game if you pick one up lmao
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May 3, 2018 21:32
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If you're not casting spells you can also use shields without any skill investment and still be better off than without one as long as you don't have a 2H weapon option which is considerably better than 1H options(so, earlygame in particular)
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May 3, 2018 21:38
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if we change the shield slot to an offhand slot instead; the lighter offhand tools could be more easily stowable, like when you hit the ' key it auto-unequips your offhand dagger as well as your demonblade sos you could use a bow or non-hand crossbow
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May 3, 2018 21:44
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dark souls has lied to you about shields tho, theyre often strapped p securely to your arm, and not just a flat piece of wood and metal w a handle, theres a p big difference between swapping between 2 large objects you merely hold in both hands and getting a shield off your arm mid-combat i mean the game abstracts the poo poo out of weapon holstering etc but i imagine whatever system you use is reasonably quick and efficient for combat purposes, meanwhile shields are designed specifically to not easily come off your arm
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May 3, 2018 21:50
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World Famous W posted:While thrown weapons shouldn't be brought back (as much as I liked daggers and hand-axes of returning) we could possibly make an unrandart javelin or so that has a higher damage and returning with a 100% chance of return. An unrand piercing/electricity branded javelin that doesn't mulch, zeus' wrath.
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May 3, 2018 22:13
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Tollymain posted:dark souls has lied to you about shields tho, theyre often strapped p securely to your arm, and not just a flat piece of wood and metal w a handle, theres a p big difference between swapping between 2 large objects you merely hold in both hands and getting a shield off your arm mid-combat actually, you'll find that my elaborate weapon holstering system works with a series of pulleys that bring the shield to my arm and back again the sleeve gun of shields 
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May 3, 2018 22:20
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Tollymain posted:dark souls has lied to you about shields tho, theyre often strapped p securely to your arm, and not just a flat piece of wood and metal w a handle, theres a p big difference between swapping between 2 large objects you merely hold in both hands and getting a shield off your arm mid-combat If you gonna go that way I'll point out there were entire tactics based on plonking down shield into dirt on a pike and crouching behind it while repeatedly loading and firing your crossbow. You also ignore that this is the game where you can fling javelins at undiminished speed while holding a morningstar and a large shield (while actively blocking potential attacks) or while holding a two hand maul. In fact, it'll be always much easier to pull out a loaded crossbow and fire off a shot than to fling a javelin when your hands are otherwise full (even though you won't have a good time reloading, afterwards)
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May 3, 2018 22:32
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I'm trying to think of a situation when I would feel like it was worthwhile to put 20+ points into crossbows and 15+ into shields, and I really can't. There's a pretty shallow amount of XP available in the non-extended game, so it's important to make use of it efficiently. Maybe an exceptionally bored gargoyle or minotaur waltzing through a 3 runer after finding a bunch of strong artifacts? But they've already got it easy, so what exactly would letting you use non-throwing/slings with a shield actually add to the game? It seems like an interesting trade-off right now, and I know I've changed my mind about going for shields before when I've found an early artifact two-hander or ranged weapon.
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May 3, 2018 23:19
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Add aux shield bashing to the game imo.
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May 3, 2018 23:51
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Dev time might be a bit slower this time compared to v1.0 when I had a holiday to work through, but I'll see what I'm willing to work on each day after I get out of work and try to put some time where I can find it (likely the weekends). I'll still provide a daily change log as long as I manage to do something that day. Changelog (mostly just going through pull requests tonight):
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May 4, 2018 01:07
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Crazy Yuif is the sixteenth rune.
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May 4, 2018 01:27
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Correction on the Ring of Fire: it's not very good at overwriting a whole bunch of different clouds, but hopefully the other changes will still work to increase it's power level for a Level 7 spell.
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May 4, 2018 02:05
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| # ? Jun 8, 2024 20:26 |
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Hyedum posted:Crazy Yuif is the sixteenth rune. or maybe, you have to sacrifice the soul of someone you truly love to gain the power of the sixteenth rune
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