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Pener Kropoopkin posted:A truly cooperative economy would be one gigantic coop, because the issue of monopoly power loses its meaning when everyone has an equal stake in the one big monopolistic firm. Of course, at that point you're practically talking about socialism anyway - so there's no point when cooperative economics wouldn't just be a transitionary period into some form of socialism. a "capitalist firm" has some degree of monopoly power over that firm's resources and is dictated by the soulless, mindnumbingly omnipresent unhuman entity that is, simply, "capital" writ large. it doesn't need to be ruled by some machiavellian capitalist to be a "capitalist firm" unionized firms are better than non-unionized firms. they are still "capitalist"
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May 3, 2018 08:03
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reignonyourparade posted:Nah. Workers care about things other than just the pure economic output. I've worked in a worker co-op, you're forced to work yourself to the bone with the excuse being "We have to compete with WalMart" It's true! You do have to compete directly with Walmart if you want to remain in business and keep your job.
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May 3, 2018 08:04
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the employee business I worked for had the exact same hierarchies in practice, just with more voodoo psychology
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May 3, 2018 08:06
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I mean, it was definitely nicer than working at Walmart but that's mainly due to the fact that the co-op was a much smaller store and I didn't have to patrol an entire warehouse
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May 3, 2018 08:07
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Yossarian-22 posted:a "capitalist firm" has some degree of monopoly power over that firm's resources and is dictated by the soulless, mindnumbingly omnipresent unhuman entity that is, simply, "capital" writ large. it doesn't need to be ruled by some machiavellian capitalist to be a "capitalist firm" Yes it does, lmao. I mean, yes it doesn't have to be ruled by some unitary capitalist proprietor - but it does have to be owned by capitalists, or those who own entitlement to profit without performing any of their own labor to generate value, or also those petit bourgeois which are entitled to the profits of their employees. If a firm is owned and operated by its workers, and not by a proprietor or shareholders, then it's not capitalist. Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 08:14 on May 3, 2018 |
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May 3, 2018 08:11
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's better, but it's not good enough to aim for. Being a Georgist is like making a pre-emptive compromise with a force that won't negotiate. Co-ops are a worthy pursuit because they can already be realized under present conditions. Why go through the trouble of overthrowing capitalism if you're just going to do Georgism? im just thinking one step forward from the concept of capitalist realism basically somehow escape the notion that it is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism imo i can imagine a communist world through cybernetics but can we imagine a transitional period? I think a modified version of Freiwirtschaft with a coop sector is a good start
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May 3, 2018 08:13
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I sort of get what people who talk about defeating the commodity-logic are getting at but I also think it sounds like something you have to do in an esoteric video game sequence.
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May 3, 2018 08:13
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Top City Homo posted:im just thinking one step forward from the concept of capitalist realism The transition from capitalism to communism is socialism. Natch.
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May 3, 2018 08:15
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:If a firm is owned and operated by its workers, and not by a proprietor or shareholders, then it's not capitalist. technically that really depends on who's controlling the capital [really] and pretending they aren't beholden to literally every single other thing happening outside that cage
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May 3, 2018 08:17
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Yes it does, lmao. you're not even good at being pedantic https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8329355/Spains-astonishing-co-op-takes-on-the-world.html
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May 3, 2018 08:18
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known socialist david cameron and known socialist rag telegraph praise coops. capitalism is truly on the outs
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May 3, 2018 08:19
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The transition from capitalism to communism is socialism. Natch. yeah but maybe we will have to first try capitalism with a human face
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May 3, 2018 08:21
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May 3, 2018 08:23
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Yossarian-22 posted:you're not even good at being pedantic Worker cooperatives aren't capitalist firms. The essential element of capitalism is that the system is controlled by the capitalist class - not that capital itself as an abstract representation of value still exists. Just because a non-capitalist firm must still operate under capitalist conditions, does not make the firm itself capitalist. Top City Homo posted:yeah but maybe we will have to first try capitalism with a human face Sorry dude, I don't want to settle for a pseudo-socialism where Kim & Kanye will be members of the new ruling class because they can leverage their celebrity power into claiming vast amounts of labor value.
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May 3, 2018 08:23
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https://libcom.org/news/go-slow-strike-fagormastercook-mondragon-capital-group-25012011 worth billions, responsible for 3 of the basque region's economic output, suppresses strikes but there because the capitalism is all decentralized it's extremely woke, actually like, there isn't a rockefeller or a rothschild that i can pin all of its problems on so i guess it's fine
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May 3, 2018 08:24
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Yossarian-22 posted:https://libcom.org/news/go-slow-strike-fagormastercook-mondragon-capital-group-25012011 You're infuriatingly obtuse, you know that? You need to quit avoiding the class dimensions.
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May 3, 2018 08:26
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everything is poisoned under the system of global capital, which has been going on for about 250 years.
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May 3, 2018 08:30
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workers owning the means of production: extremely capitalist
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May 3, 2018 08:30
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capitalist ist just another kind of worker hosed up if you think about it
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May 3, 2018 08:34
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the potter he work with clay shaping and forming a cup or whatever the capitalist he work with capital shaping and forming amazon
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May 3, 2018 08:35
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Everyone really seems to struggle with the concept of a non-capitalist, non-revolutionary organisational model. God knows what your opinions of state owned banks and healthcare systems in liberal democracy are.
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May 3, 2018 08:36
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Baloogan posted:capitalist ist just another kind of worker 
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May 3, 2018 08:36
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Pener your ignoring my obvious objection - there will still be a capitalist class, they'll simply be members of firms that rent out capital. Class relations will still exist, but the fundanental unit will be the firm, not the individual.
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May 3, 2018 08:36
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rudatron posted:Pener your ignoring my obvious objection - there will still be a capitalist class, they'll simply be members of firms that rent out capital. Class relations will still exist, but the fundanental unit will be the firm, not the individual. the ideal would be that a social revolution would accompany something like "er,, now the worker's coops dominate the economy!" but then again I'm a communist so this all sounds like even more steps to wage slavery
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May 3, 2018 08:38
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need to listen to more captialist music shinji like Trademarks & Copyrights or The Almighty Cloud - Sustainable Future Outlook
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May 3, 2018 08:40
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The ideal is a planned economy prioritizing social utility. Any market economy introduces the same issues.
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May 3, 2018 08:43
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:I sort of get what people who talk about defeating the commodity-logic are getting at but I also think it sounds like something you have to do in an esoteric video game sequence.
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May 3, 2018 08:47
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i find it extremely disingenuous to suggest that "workers owning the means of production" in any way remotely resembles workers being able to "democratically" set their own wage rates to compete in an ultimately totalitarian marketplace and pener: yes i am obtuse, you pedantic as hell vox explainer generator for tankies *faaaaaaart*
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May 3, 2018 08:48
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Worker cooperatives aren't capitalist firms. The essential element of capitalism is that the system is controlled by the capitalist class - not that capital itself as an abstract representation of value still exists. Just because a non-capitalist firm must still operate under capitalist conditions, does not make the firm itself capitalist. im not settling for it either but there has to be some movement forward because right now politicians are rehashing old Keynesian tropes and continuing the cycle of globalization -> labor discipline -> world war -> labor backlash -> shackled national capital -> globalization maybe the key is to eliminate Kim and Kanye as a class 
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May 3, 2018 08:51
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rudatron posted:The ideal is a planned economy prioritizing social utility. Any market economy introduces the same issues. i mean, yeah, I agree. No one is saying that cooperatives in an otherwise capitalist market are ideal, simply that they're significantly more desirable than working in capitalist owned and run companies.
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May 3, 2018 08:51
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Top City Homo posted:im not settling for it either but there has to be some movement forward because right now politicians are rehashing old Keynesian tropes and continuing I think the correct way forward is to experiment with direct democracy, to find out what it would look like in reality to have an organization where everyone has equal power to affect the planning of things. So no electing representatives, no leaders, no putting in your dues, nothing like that.
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May 3, 2018 08:59
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sounds gay
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May 3, 2018 09:03
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gently caress im too tired to effortpost
Yossarian-22 fucked around with this message at 09:08 on May 3, 2018 |
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May 3, 2018 09:05
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co-ops are a land of contrasts
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May 3, 2018 09:06
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Yossarian-22 posted:but then again i'm pathologically suspicious of incremental change and i'd be less inclined to be suspicious of coops if there were an accompanying revolution to affect worker power both politically and economically, with coops simply being an intermediary stage it's this. you can't expect to win the war by fighting just one climactic battle, and i don't understand why you would evaluate workplace democracy just based on that. no one here is saying we could or should use co-ops to reform capitalism
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May 3, 2018 09:09
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I think coops could help build class consciousness and working class strength. If they were widespread and viable enough to truly compete with capitalist firms more workers might start examining why exactly they have to provide a profit for someone else.
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May 3, 2018 09:17
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hangin' with mr. co-oper
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May 3, 2018 09:21
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Jizz Festival posted:I think the correct way forward is to experiment with direct democracy, to find out what it would look like in reality to have an organization where everyone has equal power to affect the planning of things. So no electing representatives, no leaders, no putting in your dues, nothing like that. You have to compromise it somehow. But elected representatives can be captured by special interests, and they eventually turn into a specialized class, isolated from the public. Demarchy, drawing random members of a jury to judge issues, is more reliable and cheaper. You also have the luxury of being able to bring expert opinion directly to a small number of people. and if you compensate them, they can commit their time and not be distracted by other obligations. Any statistical sample of a population will always fail to capture the perfect public opinion, but its as good as you can get.
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May 3, 2018 09:22
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maybe we should post "worker co-ops are merely an intermediate step if not purely a marginal improvement" for another two pages before it sticks
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May 3, 2018 09:23
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gradenko_2000 posted:maybe we should post "worker co-ops are merely an intermediate step if not purely a marginal improvement" for another two pages before it sticks yeah
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May 3, 2018 09:25
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