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Jizz Festival posted:I think the correct way forward is to experiment with direct democracy, to find out what it would look like in reality to have an organization where everyone has equal power to affect the planning of things. So no electing representatives, no leaders, no putting in your dues, nothing like that. ah that would accomplish nothing at all capitalists will not let you peacefully vote them out in Sweden they tried that in the 60s with the Meidner plan https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/08/sweden-social-democracy-meidner-plan-capital he wanted to establish wage earner funds that would buy out the capitalists over 25 years by transferring excess wages into a type of union index fund that gradually bought out ownership of companies and transferred them onto unions. Sweden "decided" to liberalize after that https://media.ed.ac.uk/media/Economic+Democracy+Block4b+v4A+Swedish+Wage+Earners%27+Funds+%28Longtagarfonderna%29/1_0dxw9dhf Top City Homo fucked around with this message at 09:34 on May 3, 2018 |
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May 3, 2018 09:31
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rudatron posted:Pener your ignoring my obvious objection - there will still be a capitalist class, they'll simply be members of firms that rent out capital. Class relations will still exist, but the fundanental unit will be the firm, not the individual. I guess that's technically possible but it doesn't make sense for a cooperative to rent out capital which they could be working themselves. It makes sense to be a rentier under conditions of capitalism, because as the landlord or the license issuer, all the rents float up into your pocket. Once you've expanded the beneficiaries of the rent into an entire cooperative network, the split incomes couldn't possibly support a lifestyle where they wouldn't have to labor themselves. If you rent out your capital to some other worker co-op, then all you can do is collect the rent. You wouldn't even be entitled to the productive value of the capital, just the rent extracted from the usage rights. One capitalist can be rich off the rents of multiple properties, but the same can't be said of multiple people who own the same amount of properties split evenly. The accumulation process is just way too slow. Shareholding on the other hand works for the process of capital accumulation, because you can invest many shares into several enterprises and draw in dividends or capital gains from a broad sector of capital. Worker co-ops don't issue shares, you have to work for the coop in order to have a stake. It's just too unfeasible of a problem to really take that seriously. The real problem with cooperative economies is that some forms of capital will be far more productive than others in terms of value, which means that you'll have a class of workers who earn much higher incomes relative to everyone else. Even if those inequities are slight compared to conditions under capitalism, it still doesn't resolve the obvious social issues that would arise from it.
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May 3, 2018 09:34
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rudatron posted:Direct democracy is unfeasible, inefficient & unenjoyable - engaging with any political system requires domain specific knowledge and skillsets. plus its boring work most of the time. plus, the people most willing to engage, are the people who's opinions matter least, because they're least representative of the public, since john q public isn't interested in politics. Yet they're the people most committed to political action. John Q. Public isn't interested in politics as it exists now. It's the middle of the night and I don't want to write a long effortpost and my own thoughts on this are still forming, but I think the reason people aren't interested in politics is that they have little power to affect anything. With elections, they are given a narrow set of options to choose from. With activism, they are asked to march and shout and write letters in the hopes that it will have some effect on the people with actual power. To actually have the power to create the options is something very different that is far more appealing. Jizz Festival fucked around with this message at 09:37 on May 3, 2018 |
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May 3, 2018 09:35
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Top City Homo posted:ah that would accomplish nothing at all I am not talking about reforming the government to be a direct democracy, I'm talking about how to organize people to seize power.
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May 3, 2018 09:36
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Jizz Festival posted:John Q. Public isn't interested in politics as it exists now. It's the middle of the night and I don't want to write a long effortpost and my own thoughts on this are still forming, but I think the reason people aren't interested in politics is that they have little power to affect anything. With elections, they are given a narrow set of options to choose from. With activism, they are asked to march and shout and write letters in the hopes that it will have some affect on the people with actual power. To actually have the power to create the options is something very different that is far more appealing. Basically, the problem rudatron runs into is that John Q. Public isn't interested in politics because they're alienated from governmental functions. Their choices and opinions have no potential outcome on political decisionmaking, but the same isn't true of the workplace where you're directly involved in its recreation. Everyone's opinion matters because the working decisions will always affect them immediately and directly, so there's a much greater incentive to be engaged.
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May 3, 2018 09:40
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in a system larger than that which governs something the size of a tribe, alienation is inevitable. in this technological age, even the basic means of production for are alienated to literally everyone, because every subcomponent requires specialized knowledge to create some finished product from some half-finished product. your basic made-in-china $10 toaster cannot be made by one person by hand, it's literally impossible. they wouldn't even get the different steel metallurgy correct. the same is true for any bureaucracy necessary for the effective administration of any substantial group. alienation is a fact of life, you have to just design around it.
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May 3, 2018 10:56
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rudatron posted:Direct democracy is unfeasible, inefficient & unenjoyable - engaging with any political system requires domain specific knowledge and skillsets. plus its boring work most of the time. plus, the people most willing to engage, are the people who's opinions matter least, because they're least representative of the public, since john q public isn't interested in politics. Yet they're the people most committed to political action. I can recommend "Towards a new Socialism" on the subject. They propose a mix of Demarchy for the minute day to day decisions in different boards. Direct democratic referendums using electronic means would be used for larger decisions. Like "Do we want to work more hours for more/wider array products?". It was published in 1993, so their suggestion for the electronic voting system is to use Teletext with a voting module.  It's fully avalible online: http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/new_socialism.pdf
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May 3, 2018 11:15
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watching this film about Labour Militant, a Trot entryist group in the Labour Party in 70s and 80s it's pretty interesting and then towards the end the Militant newspaper editors totally blow it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0tUOc_swi8&t=936s
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May 3, 2018 13:00
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lmao “we don’t need to worry about that because no one’d ever vote against our program”
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May 3, 2018 13:06
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yeah i'm like "hmm so why wasn't this group successful--oh my, oh god no!" fucken trots dude. the hatton guy in the screencap is apparently now a developer who works in cyprus, and drives a range rover, and tried to rejoin labour once corbyn took over (militant was purged in the late 80s), but the party is like "ahh we're good bro" and then politely handed his membership application back
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May 3, 2018 13:11
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:fucken trots
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May 3, 2018 14:58
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so the fellow on the left nervously playing with his pen is peter taaffe i think. he is currently the general secretary of the socialist party of england and wales, another trotskyist group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Party_(England_and_Wales) huh. and ted grant, the guy blowing it in that video, went on to found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Marxist_Tendency BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 15:06 on May 3, 2018 |
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May 3, 2018 15:02
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militant was the forerunner to the socialist party in the UK and the forerunners for socialist alternative in the US. the person on the left is peter taaffe who is the current party secretary and in terms of "why werent they successful" they were very successful and still are, they controlled several city governments at the time of that filming and would go on to lead the poll tax campaign that brought down theresa may. they were driven out of the labour party for basically being too good at what they do by what would become the blairites https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOAJ9G4iytU
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May 3, 2018 15:24
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apropos to nothing posted:militant was the forerunner to the socialist party in the UK and the forerunners for socialist alternative in the US. the person on the left is peter taaffe who is the current party secretary and in terms of "why werent they successful" they were very successful and still are, they controlled several city governments at the time of that filming and would go on to lead the poll tax campaign that brought down theresa may. they were driven out of the labour party for basically being too good at what they do by what would become the blairites https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOAJ9G4iytU wrong right-wing woman
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May 3, 2018 15:26
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woops lol meant maragret thatcher. welp heres hoping!
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May 3, 2018 15:28
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huh. trots... good?
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May 3, 2018 15:59
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Even Trots are better than SDs.
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May 3, 2018 16:02
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i'll be damned
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May 3, 2018 16:07
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:huh. trots... good? the socialist workers party repeatedly cover up their leaders rapes here and the US version split and created NAMBLA lol
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May 3, 2018 16:14
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the great NAMBLA (ML) and NAMBLA (M) split
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May 3, 2018 16:15
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Jose posted:the socialist workers party repeatedly cover up their leaders rapes here and the US version split and created NAMBLA lol Our Trots kicked out the NAMBLA guys at least.
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May 3, 2018 16:15
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a german leftist friend of mine said the spartacists there support nambla lol e: http://spartacist.org/english/wh/209/Polanski.html
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May 3, 2018 16:15
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Our Trots kicked out the NAMBLA guys at least. if the leader was raping kids then he'd probably have been booted from the party and arrested here because thats only for rich MP's
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May 3, 2018 16:18
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at least one trotskyist party has to be good when there are so many out there
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May 3, 2018 17:30
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Huh so the nambla stuff is real. Legit thought that was a urban legend
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May 3, 2018 18:49
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Yossarian-22 posted:at least one trotskyist party has to be good when there are so many out there the socialism conference in chicago is a lot of drinking and hooking up, pretty good time oh you meant party as in political party no they all vary from bad to ineffective
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May 3, 2018 18:54
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Karl Barks posted:Huh so the nambla stuff is real. Legit thought that was a urban legend wait what
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May 3, 2018 19:07
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Jizz Festival posted:I am not talking about reforming the government to be a direct democracy, I'm talking about how to organize people to seize power. well that's a different question so far a vanguard party from Mao to Lenin to the Viet Cong are the only real experiences we have
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May 3, 2018 21:18
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White Rock posted:I can recommend "Towards a new Socialism" on the subject. They propose a mix of Demarchy for the minute day to day decisions in different boards. Direct democratic referendums using electronic means would be used for larger decisions. Like "Do we want to work more hours for more/wider array products?". Check out what the Chinese may be considering https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.13169/worlrevipoliecon.8.2.0138#?seq=1%23page_scan_tab_contents
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May 3, 2018 21:19
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Jose posted:if the leader was raping kids then he'd probably have been booted from the party and arrested here because thats only for rich MP's "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggle over who gets to bugger the children" -Orthodox Trotskyism
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May 3, 2018 21:25
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apropos to nothing posted:militant was the forerunner to the socialist party in the UK and the forerunners for socialist alternative in the US. the person on the left is peter taaffe who is the current party secretary and in terms of "why werent they successful" they were very successful and still are, they controlled several city governments at the time of that filming and would go on to lead the poll tax campaign that brought down theresa may. they were driven out of the labour party for basically being too good at what they do by what would become the blairites https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOAJ9G4iytU arent you a trot tho
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May 3, 2018 21:26
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Top City Homo posted:"The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggle over who gets to bugger the children" english public school prison gay for the proletariat too
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May 3, 2018 21:28
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Karl Barks posted:Huh so the nambla stuff is real. Legit thought that was a urban legend the NAMBLA people remora-like affix'd themselves to a bunch of different groups in the 60's 70's and 80's as a way of trying to build themselves up as credible. LGBTQ orgs literally chased them away from parades back in those days.
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May 3, 2018 21:34
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didnt european green parties have a big problem with weird free love hippies trying to apply it to children ah yeah: https://newrepublic.com/article/120379/german-green-party-pedophilia-scandal
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May 3, 2018 22:03
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May 3, 2018 22:16
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~where they hung the jerk who invented work~
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May 4, 2018 00:19
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i agree with this
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May 4, 2018 01:39
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https://twitter.com/getfiscal/status/992229487428415489?s=19 Revcel
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May 4, 2018 03:41
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same
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May 4, 2018 04:40
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*in extremely professional fisherman voice* well i think we should fish two days a week and jerk off 5 days a week!!
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May 4, 2018 04:42
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