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The launch-capability of an Allied CV is 90, CVL is 33, and CVE is 27. I'm pretty sure that the game engine (surprisingly) doesn't care that heavier planes like Hellcats couldn't normally fly off of CVEs. Add 20 fighters on CAP and 5 bombers on search/ASW patrols, and we're probably looking at either 3 CVL/CVEs or 1 CV and 1 lighter ship, both partially depleted before the raid. From GH's screenshot, the KB has 97 fighters, 92 dive bombers, and 79 torpedo bombers. Even with the qualitative difference between planes/pilots at this point in the war, I like those odds. Good luck!
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May 6, 2018 21:55
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| # ? May 17, 2024 14:09 |
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I am PROPER STOKED guys BANZAI
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May 6, 2018 22:01
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Or he missed the carriers entirely and his airwings are butchered when they attack the Iowa class coming in to fail to defend the next attack on Rabaul.
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May 6, 2018 22:03
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Long live the emperor
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May 6, 2018 22:24
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CannonFodder posted:If both TFs send all their planes to attack and don't have any left to protect, then yes all the ships sink and then probably all the planes end up ditching in the ocean. This would cripple both navies and the war would probably last until late 1946 when the game ends on time. Why would losing all the carriers cripple the navy? I mean, yeah, it would hurt, but if this war has taught us anything it's that the battleship is the undisputed ruler of the seas.
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May 6, 2018 22:48
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Also it would only affect the IJN. And as we all know it is the IJA that is the true star of this show, as evidenced by their conquest of all of South-East Asia, and all of China. Except for one insignificant city, but that should be resolved soon enough. We'll be in Baku by the end of the year!
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May 6, 2018 23:30
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Slippery42 posted:From GH's screenshot, the KB has 97 fighters, 92 dive bombers, and 79 torpedo bombers. Even with the qualitative difference between planes/pilots at this point in the war, I like those odds. Good luck!
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May 6, 2018 23:57
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OpenlyEvilJello posted:CVEs typically carried a Wildcat/Avenger air group, too, not Hellcat/Helldiver. Generation Internet posted:They're flying Hellcats and Helldivers, they're definitely fleet carriers. Historically this was true, but if you go back to the CVEs caught at the end of March most of them were operating Hellcats/Helldivers - and they were Casablancas no less, so basically the smallest ones. That operating them off flight decks that small would cause a massive increase in airframe and flight personnel losses due to how difficult it is does not seem to be something the AI is concerned about.
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May 7, 2018 04:11
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Ok, the AI abandoned Truk. Where’d they go? Saipan? Guam? Beelzebub(sp)?
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May 7, 2018 23:07
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Woodchip posted:Ok, the AI abandoned Truk. Where’d they go? Saipan? Guam? Beelzebub(sp)? R'lyeh. Bonus points for telling me which hex 47° 9′ S, 126° 43′ W falls under.
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May 7, 2018 23:17
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Woodchip posted:Ok, the AI abandoned Truk. Where’d they go? Saipan? Guam? Beelzebub(sp)? The AI mostly abandoned Rabaul in my game, I'm assuming all of the dudes are in the Marianas and will give me a hell of a fight when I show up.
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May 7, 2018 23:50
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Bold Robot posted:The AI mostly abandoned Rabaul in my game, I'm assuming all of the dudes are in the Marianas and will give me a hell of a fight when I show up. I'm hoping that's the case, so I can move north from Truk to Saipan and the PI to cut them all off forever.
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May 8, 2018 00:29
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Lord Koth posted:Historically this was true, but if you go back to the CVEs caught at the end of March most of them were operating Hellcats/Helldivers - and they were Casablancas no less, so basically the smallest ones. That operating them off flight decks that small would cause a massive increase in airframe and flight personnel losses due to how difficult it is does not seem to be something the AI is concerned about. I never know when to trust grog games. 7 May 1944 Frigate HMCS Valleyfield sunk by U-548, off Cape Race, Newfoundland, with a homing torpedo.
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May 8, 2018 03:43
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   Boom! HEADSHOT! The Allies rembark their troops today.  The raiders keep raiding.  The normal pattern continues.  We found them!  Heavy losses, but we hit their flight decks, which means if we can survive the counter strike, we can finish them tomorrow. Also, two CVE's my rear end.  With their heavy losses yesterday, they don't have the planes to throw at me – this is why I'm taking this risk!  Six Avengers make it through the CAP – none of them are named Thor, Hulk, Iron Man or Captain America.  The Thunderbolts raid us again.  Some of the lost planes get punished.  These guys make it through though!  For some reason their afternoon attack ignores my carriers and takes out a supply convoy!   Hey, mosquitoes are new here.   No afternoon attack for our carriers is disappointing, but now I have to guess which way their carriers are going to flee.  23/100.
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May 8, 2018 04:07
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Excellent work. Woodchip posted:I'm hoping that's the case, so I can move north from Truk to Saipan and the PI to cut them all off forever. Saipan is in the Marianas, you maybe are thinking of the Marshalls?
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May 8, 2018 04:21
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Quite the butcher's bill for the planes, but worth it if you can sink 2 CVs
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May 8, 2018 04:23
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Can you get carriers with III in their name in this game? As in, Yorktown III, for example? Because it seems that soon it will be needed.
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May 8, 2018 04:24
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 Another glorious sortie for the Emperor.
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May 8, 2018 04:28
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Ow, hundred dead planes in a day. Good luck with refilling your pilot pool, training, and replacements.. But also good time to catch two carriers when they don't have much of a counterpunch available and limited escorts. Good luck! Also complete misidentification/miscommunication of targets happens. During the Battle of Coral Sea, the IJN identified an oiler and it's destroyer escort as the American carriers, and all of their first strike hit it, sparing the Yorktown and Lexington from receiving it.
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May 8, 2018 04:35
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Wow this is an extremely exciting development. If those carriers don't have working flight decks anymore you have a real shot at a devastating second strike.
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May 8, 2018 04:56
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I like to imagine the carriers were correctly identified by whoever spotted them, but through a series of comical mistakes, deliberate downplaying of the Allied threat, and interference by the perfidious IJA as the report went up the chain of command, the one that ended up on Grey's desk read something like "Two CVEs. At most. Might even just be light cruisers. Or undefended cargo ships. Easy pickings."
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May 8, 2018 05:10
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They are CVEs, Grey is just giving us the IJN fog of war, saying he's actually engaging fleet carriers to impress us.
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May 8, 2018 05:20
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Honestly considering what Grey knew even if they were CVs he made a perfectly good call. Got butchered by LBA earlier, known location, had good idea of the composition of the airgroup. WitP is slightly unrealistic in that you can kind of use a vast variety of information (and a fair bit of historical intelligence) that no real commander would have to pierce the fog of war. If the report had really landed on some Admiral's desk of CVEs he may not have received the separate report about Hellcats and Helldivers, which our analysts in the thread and most players would correctly identify as fleet carrier units, nor would he know that reports of CVEs or even CAs with low detection levels can often be full CVs. On the other hand that you can do this makes it a great wargame, as it substitutes for other things like sensible radio intelligence or coast spotters or a massive plotting table.
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May 8, 2018 05:22
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considering the completely inconsistent and incongruous level of control one is presented in WITP, I think it's fair to say that Grey can tap into things that an "admiral" wouldn't be able to, because their role is simultaneously so much more broad and so much more narrow than that
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May 8, 2018 05:27
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How likely are those carriers to be disabled in terms of flight ops? With 500kg SAP that has to be at least somewhat serious.
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May 8, 2018 05:30
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I thought Dorktown II was one of the ones we failed to sink before right? Or is this the first time we saw her? It'd be funny if we fail to sink her _again_
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May 8, 2018 05:35
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Tomorrow can't come early enough.
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May 8, 2018 05:51
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Mikl posted:Can you get carriers with III in their name in this game? As in, Yorktown III, for example? Because it seems that soon it will be needed. You can manually rename certain carriers (the ones that were historically renamed) but you'd never get a Yorktown III because all of the replacement carrier names are drawn from the Essex class names, which don't run out until you stop being able to get new carriers added to the reinforcement queue after 1944.
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May 8, 2018 06:32
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That's an awful lot of aircraft losses for just 4 bomb hits. Does your carrier group have enough airframes left to do a second strike?
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May 8, 2018 06:33
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I'm not sure where the threshold is exactly for "heavy damage", but I saw a ship showing 36 SYS and 32 FLT damage the next turn not get that tag in the combat report. Suffice to say, those two bombs did work, and Yorktown almost certainly can't launch tomorrow (I think somewhere around 50 combined SYS/FLT damage prevents air operations). However, its air groups probably rebased to Wasp. With no indications of mass ditching in the intelligence report via piles of operational losses, Wasp is almost certainly still capable of launching. The question is how bad she's actually hurt and what (if any) penalty her air ops will take tomorrow.
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May 8, 2018 08:54
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Paying the trade-off price for having unarmoured flight decks.
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May 8, 2018 11:04
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goatface posted:Paying the trade-off price for having unarmoured flight decks. They have fifty or so, I think they can afford it. Also they can armor their flight decks with the planes we send at them that get shot down! The strike tomorrow should be messy for them presuming there are any aircraft left to go on it!
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May 8, 2018 11:26
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I know it's the AI but at this point I'd fear there is another carrier force within striking distance and the two CVs were bait.
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May 8, 2018 11:41
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Looking forward to today- are we absolutely sure we don’t have a BB or two to cement the superiority of gun over flight deck forever?
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May 8, 2018 15:00
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Do higher experience pilots give better scouting intel? IIRC pilots wildly overestimating ship classes, tonnages and damage was an issue as Japanese pilot quality declined.
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May 8, 2018 15:25
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You got real lucky their afternoon attack blew away a couple of stray Marus instead of going after your carriers again, huh. Come to think of it with the damage their CAP took today, you might have a real carrier back-breaking on your hands tomorrow. So long as the Judy's don't go after their merchant marine again for some arbitrary reason, of course.
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May 8, 2018 16:04
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It all evens out in the end, I remember Grey's planes doing the exact same thing (sinking transport convoys instead of attacking carriers) during a previous carrier engagement in this thread.
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May 8, 2018 16:54
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algebra testes posted:I thought Dorktown II was one of the ones we failed to sink before right? Or is this the first time we saw her? It'd be funny if we fail to sink her _again_ Dorktown II was previously spotted, hit, and assumed sunk.
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May 8, 2018 17:51
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Is it just me, or are the American carrier-based bombers really, really bad? Their Helldivers and the Avengers have gotten absolutely nuked over the past two days. Even without multiple Japanese carriers the Avengers always seem to get downed in large amounts.
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May 8, 2018 23:03
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| # ? May 17, 2024 14:09 |
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Take a good look at the force correlations, particularly the fighter mix. The Japanese forces have had the force advantage, so their strikes have had much worse numerical odds. The US strike on the 7th went in against more than 2-1 odds in fighters and not even equal numbers overall (44 zeroes vs 21 fighters and 19 attack birds), while the first Japanese strike had near parity in fighters and an overall superiority (42 Zeroes and 95 attack birds vs 49 Hellcats). The US strike cost 6 attack aircraft + one damage (31% shot down, 5% damaged), while the Japanese strike cost 11 destroyed and 31 damaged (11% shot down, 32% damaged). The US strike on the 6th was much the same. The US sent 10 fighters and 62 attack birds against against 52 fighters. The attack planes suffered 19 down (30%) and 13 damaged (20%). Sending attack aircraft right into the teeth of overwhelming fighter cover results in a lot of dead attack aircraft, while giving an adequate fighter escort with your strike results in a lot fewer. Shocking.
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May 8, 2018 23:42
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