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The funny thing is that simply banishing people to die of frostbite as you have to do if you have guards but not a prison is seen as completely fair and reasonable. And in a way I get it. If you put some rear end in a top hat that endangered the very survival of your little colony in prison you still have to feed him. If you banish him, that problem is gone.
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May 8, 2018 12:26
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 07:57 |
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i don't think "criminals" actually exist in game, outside of that one event chain where a londoner steals some supplies. pretty sure the only people who go into the prison are the discontent and also londoners. so why are you choosing to implement all these supposedly benign anti-crime measures? definitely not an excuse you're using to justify an oppressive police-state, right?
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May 8, 2018 12:27
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There's also cooks stealing food. And if you have guards and nothing else in the order tree, and then send the a guard to simply remove londoner graffiti, he at one point get severely beaten. Pretty sure I'd count assaulting a poor dude just removing graffiti as a crime.
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May 8, 2018 12:34
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deceiving the player about what the player characters own intentional and cognizant actions are is lame and dumbredreader posted:I can unlock prosthetics, build them at the factory, have amputees... but it seems they don't work anyway? the amputees also have to go to... the factory? a clinic? to be fitted with them. give it a day or two.
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May 8, 2018 12:54
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Is the lack of active crime a reason not to have guards? I haven't had anyone break into my current companies building, should I tell the security guy he isn't needed? It's not like this is a "brand new society where crime is unheard of". This is a bunch of people forced to go north who do not all agree with eachother.
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May 8, 2018 13:21
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It isn't dumb, since actually police forces are by definition bound one day or another to overstep their bounds, since actually it is incentivised as part of their functioning. Also, since police is more generally thought of enforcers of a certain political status quo, it is obvious that they would be the pioneers of the fascist apocalypse. The fact is, is the existence itself of a police force good or bad? The devs clearly opt for the latter, as in, the risks of abuse associated with having any kind of enforcement are not worth it. I disagree, personally, there is a clear tradeoff, but a modern society cannot function without effective enforcement of an order, as unjust as it may be.
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May 8, 2018 13:27
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The very first event I got after I implemented guards was that one saves a child while on patrol that would have otherwise died. It kind of makes sense to have watchmen. Also, if you are turning groups of survivors away, how exactly would you keep them out without some kind of organized security?
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May 8, 2018 13:36
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I disagree that the devs present guards as bad in and of itself. Last game I dipped into Order, Guard Towers, Watch Towers and Morning Gatherings. Nothing else. I got the good ending saying I hadn't crossed the line, and the guards were presented in a wholly positive light. Catching a child as he fell after climbing on the generator, the text box saying that yeah, he would've died or been crippled if not for the guards. Another pop up had a grateful child bring hot soup to a guard tower. I think the game is doing a fairly good job of saying that the guards are your primary tools if you go full fash. It's how you use them, not the presence of law enforcement to begin with. For example, there's an event where one of the londoners is standing on a box shouting fear mongering. You can send guards to shut him up, but you're not forced to, the other choice saying that he has his rights to express his opinion and fears. Pretty sure there also was a similar event involving a protest that you could either forcibly break up, or peacefully monitor so that nobody gets hurt. Faith keepers on the other hand seem a lot more shady.
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May 8, 2018 13:45
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I haven't gone order yet because I've been so limited in freetime the last few weeks, but I'm surprised that there's opposition to the guards being a step towards crossing the line, but none about prostitution being one as well. I think there's a lot to tease out of what the game says about people, and itself, much more than I initially saw.
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May 8, 2018 13:53
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A lot of things are a step towards "THE LINE" without being very clear about it. Also depends on where your line is. If its the end times and some guy is convincing others to go to certain doom, no poo poo i'm shutting him up, he will literally get people killed. Prostitution? Go wild, so long as its not forced I don't give a gently caress. Child labor? That wasn't even uncommon 100 years ago! I grew up working! Games with morality will always have that problem though.
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May 8, 2018 14:20
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dogstile posted:A lot of things are a step towards "THE LINE" without being very clear about it. I think that's the point, the line should be fuzzy as in real life as fascist policies have a way of just creeping up slowly, each one has very good reasons why its required. I think the game fails only that the fascist policies should be much more enticing forcing you to make a harder choice.
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May 8, 2018 15:59
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Tormented posted:I think the game fails only that the fascist policies should be much more enticing forcing you to make a harder choice.
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May 8, 2018 16:19
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in a settlement of 500 what does "propaganda center" even mean? like, it's ten dudes with a printing press
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May 8, 2018 16:27
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Faith keepers are the same thing as the guardsmen, they just wear robes instead. I definitely had a priest beat up for just going around talking to people, but it wasn't until cooks stole some food that I implemented them. I used whipping once to see what it'd do, but the Londoners were withering under the holy weight of my temple anyway, so... You get more people to realize that trekking back home through the frozen hellscape is a bad idea through food than whips, I guess.
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May 8, 2018 16:27
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Prostitution is crossing a line because all labor is forced.
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May 8, 2018 16:29
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I really enjoy this game despite its flaws. it's very funny that soup can fill half the bar of discontent
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May 8, 2018 16:32
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Ordering your workers to do anything is abuse of labor. Let them decide to pick up coal from the ground by themselves. All you do is make the laws.
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May 8, 2018 16:32
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emdash posted:it's very funny that soup can fill half the bar of discontent they get so mad. sawdust supremacy; more food and less downside.
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May 8, 2018 16:33
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Bogart posted:Faith keepers are the same thing as the guardsmen, they just wear robes instead. I definitely had a priest beat up for just going around talking to people, but it wasn't until cooks stole some food that I implemented them. I used whipping once to see what it'd do, but the Londoners were withering under the holy weight of my temple anyway, so... You get more people to realize that trekking back home through the frozen hellscape is a bad idea through food than whips, I guess. Enforcing religion by force of arms feels a whole lot more shady than a police force to me though. It's made worse by the fact that there's more positive stuff in the faith tree to begin with.
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May 8, 2018 17:02
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Bogart posted:Ordering your workers to do anything is abuse of labor. Let them decide to pick up coal from the ground by themselves. All you do is make the laws. "Sir, we're starving" "Yeah but I can't force you to hunt" "But the hut is right there, you just have to click the buttons" "But that'd be forcing you and its wrong, sorry, enjoy starving to death!"
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May 8, 2018 17:21
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Was thinking it'd be cool if the unemployed could be entered into a basic labor pool that you could point at buildings you want made now. Maybe some research that lets them be a little warmer than normal, or lets them keep the walkways clean for a small boost. When you hit Purpose, they're what become guardsmen or faith keepers.
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May 8, 2018 17:58
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dogstile posted:Is the lack of active crime a reason not to have guards? You're building a solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist, and conveniently at the same time giving yourself a ton more power over the people you govern
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May 8, 2018 18:07
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Prav posted:in a settlement of 500 what does "propaganda center" even mean? like, it's ten dudes with a printing press The prostitution thing gets me even more, especially when the town is much smaller. Like, ok, there's only 60 grown adults in this town, everyone's been together for months, first on the deathmarch up to the generator, then toiling for their very survival, I'd guess there are very few secrets anymore, everyone's pretty familiar with eachother. Okay, brothel's open... so let's get a couple of you to serve as the prostitutes. I guess the thirty-odd men in town will just take turns plowing ol' Margie. Beats jerking off into the blizzard I guess.
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May 8, 2018 18:38
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ninjewtsu posted:actually i think the juxtaposition of being told "yeah we're just going to be a little harder on criminals to convince them to be good faster" with a picture of dudes chained to a pole with an interrogator holding a bloody baseball bat is super cool. the description is what the populace sees when you announce the new law, and the visual is the kind of horrifying reality of what you're actually doing. it's why you're not immediately booted out of office for trying to turn the city into a fascist dictatorship in the matter of a week or so: you're telling everyone that the guard stations are just "police" that are there to protect them from "criminals" and they believe that because that doesn't sound too outlandish when they're not yet under armed watch at all times. It's also subtle how the crimes denoted on the sign they're carrying change. In he picture for prisons, you see the guy getting put in the cell wearing a sing that says Thief. That's pretty reasonable overall, someone getting a stint for stealing. Then in forceful persuasion, you see them getting beat up for what? Vandal, Liar and Public Enemy. That's one hell of an escalation, and "Liar" and "Public Enemy" are so subjective that they're little more than an excuse to shut up inconvenient opinions. I'd say the guards are in fact just police when you start out. It's once you go down to beating up "public enemies" and creating Stasi-esque informer networks that you're turning it into something a hell of a lot darker. You can totally do prisons or faith keepers and not cross the line. It's what comes afterwards that retroactively turns them from being reasonable ways to keep public order into tools of despotism. Groetgaffel posted:Mechanically, yes. They're not enforcing religion when they start out, though. They act basically the same as a police force, preserving public order and trying to stand up as a positive example. Actually forcing people to convert or whatever only comes farther down the tree.
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May 8, 2018 18:42
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Bogart posted:Was thinking it'd be cool if the unemployed could be entered into a basic labor pool that you could point at buildings you want made now. if you have unemployed workers they'll already busy themselves with building structures. taking 5 dudes off a gathering post can be well worth it if you have something you want up asap.
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May 8, 2018 18:57
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Does anyone know what the requirements actually are for the Golden Path achievement? I've tried three different times and I don't cross the line but still don't get it. Evening prayers? 
Leafy Wall fucked around with this message at 19:41 on May 8, 2018 |
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May 8, 2018 19:38
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I feel the game could use a little more detail in the order/faith paths, maybe an extra law that more clearly transforms your good boy cops into militarized brute cops, as well as a more generalized reason to want cops at all and give you an incentive to consider gun-cops than just some hope/discontent adjustment and shutting up those rear end in a top hat londoners. As it is the jump from  to Is pretty much just one law.This game is great, but there is very obvious areas where it could use improvement. I spent half my first playthrough expecting snow-raiders or a rivaling settlement to come into play. I think more possible dangers and a few more laws to smooth out the transitions into badness and incentivize players to make those hard choices. ninjewtsu posted:i mean, was crime a serious problem your city was facing before you built that prison? Edit: Also I have never opened the brothel. I may be God Emperor of poo poo City (praise unto me) but I don't allow prostitution. You guys can go gently caress a snowman. The Skeleton King fucked around with this message at 20:12 on May 8, 2018 |
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May 8, 2018 19:43
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I think "it's not really clear where good cops become fascist tools" is an intentional point The actual "line" mechanically isn't even a "if you research laws past this point, you're evil," it's a "if you research any combination of 3 morally grey laws, you've crossed the line." Where "the line" is isn't as simple as "cops are good unless you're using them to beat down protestors"
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May 8, 2018 21:03
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I think the events influence the line pretty much. I had faith all the way through public castigation(and used it once) but never crossed the line. Events that seem to make a huge difference are the ones where a crowd wants to castigate an innocent man, and the one where they ask you to reconsider the severity of crimes needed before public castigation.
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May 8, 2018 21:39
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i've never felt so betrayed by a game's interface as i did when i realized middle mouse button rotates buildings on day 30
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May 8, 2018 22:02
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Pornographic Memory posted:i've never felt so betrayed by a game's interface as i did when i realized middle mouse button rotates buildings on day 30 Q and E do as well
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May 9, 2018 04:09
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Completed a new home. By the final day I still had 28000 coal and 1600 soup and I didn't even use the sawdust. The storm is pretty drat intimidating but I held off on using overdrive until day 2 of the storm and then switched it off every few hours for a quick cooldown. At the end it was at 93% overdrive. I love this game, but I definitely believe it needs a little more to put the player off balance and play a bit harder with the morality. Also lol, -170c, get hosed Earth! FAUXTON posted:Q and E do as well Motherfucker...
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May 9, 2018 06:07
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The Skeleton King posted:
The ending splash had the temp at something like -32F in New London, which isn't too bad at all and I think warmer than it ever was during the scenario.
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May 9, 2018 11:21
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Someone else said it earlier, but it's probably accounting for windchill.
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May 9, 2018 11:28
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Any tips for the third scenario? I spent the entire first half getting constantly bottlenecked by one resource shortage or another, and by the time I was just barely getting everything evened out the lords started dumping huge amounts of new people on me right when the temperature plunged, causing dozens of cold-related deaths that tanked my hope before I'd finished unlocking the Order thing that lets me play 1984 with the whole city.
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May 9, 2018 11:40
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I had a similar problem before, and the advice I got here was to use a steam core to build an infirmary, and generally build up medical infrastructure as much as possible. Sinking engineers into medical posts is a good & useful thing to do. Faith laws are also insanely useful, since the House of Healing works like a hospital, except it can work with untrained workers, and you'll have lots of those on hand.
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May 9, 2018 12:05
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Steel is what hosed me hardest on my winning run last night. When the temperature dropped to -60 the first time I had nowhere enough steel to build the bunk houses i needed right as a bunch of new people arrived. I assumed that my steam steelworks would have gotten enough before they showed up but no they are slow as gently caress and I needed 8 bunkhouses and some steam hubs to heat certain areas. Making things worse was that I hadn't yet gotten some needed steam hubs built or improved heaters researched yet so suddenly my production buildings weren't available so I had to reassign my automaton to the steelworks to force out some production while I started emergency shifts at the workshops force out a heater upgrade. And since I discovered winterhome early everyone freezing in the tents were giving the londoners a bunch of support so I had to go to combat the sudden spike in discontent. I guess that it was okay in the end because THE LINE was probably crossed on accident already.Overall it was my fault for planning on steel production meeting my needs before both the temperature drop and the new arrivals. I only got enough to build the bunks and hubs once the scouts finally got back with 120 steel. My plan was to have steel stocked up by the time the new guys arrived so I could build all the new bunks at once and get the hubs over the course of the next day, but I grossly overestimated the production rate of two steam steelworks working long shifts. If I had an automaton doing the work ahead of time and slowed down the scouting in for a day or so it may have gone differently.
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May 9, 2018 17:02
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Your steel production will be your biggest bottleneck until you learn your lesson and heavily invest in it early so that by mid game you are overproducing and irritated that you need to build depots for it.
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May 9, 2018 18:07
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the only way i can even get close to finishing refugees on normal is if i deny everybody housing until all the piles are gone
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May 9, 2018 18:10
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 07:57 |
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On normal I always just start with tents and keep heating off until it starts getting cold. Not having to pick up coal makes wood much more abundant early. I basically perfected my normal game now though, so I'm moving on to hard now. Gonna see what all the fuss is about 
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May 9, 2018 18:16
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