There is a spectrum haunting C-SPAM. I, on the contrary,

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an actual dog: Nov 18, 2014

# ? May 9, 2018 05:22

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# ? May 26, 2024 14:01

Algund Eenboom: May 4, 2014

why is there a town named florida

e: why are there two separate towns named florida in new york

# ? May 9, 2018 05:31

Metal Cat: Dec 25, 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3p2xf8NdRg

So I just listened to this Sakai interview and I'm kinda :staredog:

about some of his conclusions. I agree that there's deep historical injustices from a racial standpoint and that white populations have sometimes acted as a class in itself and sometimes sabotaged widespread class solidarity for systemic material advantages, but isn't he basically advocating some kind of ethno-cultural sorting/separatism in practical terms when he talks about desettlerization? There's a lot of vague language and it seems like he oscillates a lot, and I can't really pinpoint what he's envisioning, but if it's some kind of transitional thing that supposedly precedes internationalism then I'm not sure what it is. I don't wanna misrepresent what he's saying and mischaracterize him, please help me out.

# ? May 9, 2018 08:00

Sheng-Ji Yang: Mar 5, 2014

Metal Cat posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3p2xf8NdRg

So I just listened to this Sakai interview and I'm kinda about some of his conclusions. I agree that there's deep historical injustices from a racial standpoint and that white populations have sometimes acted as a class in itself and sometimes sabotaged widespread class solidarity for systemic material advantages, but isn't he basically advocating some kind of ethno-cultural sorting/separatism in practical terms when he talks about desettlerization? There's a lot of vague language and it seems like he oscillates a lot, and I can't really pinpoint what he's envisioning, but if it's some kind of transitional thing that supposedly precedes internationalism then I'm not sure what it is. I don't wanna misrepresent what he's saying and mischaracterize him, please help me out.

# ? May 9, 2018 08:51

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

Metal Cat posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3p2xf8NdRg

So I just listened to this Sakai interview and I'm kinda about some of his conclusions. I agree that there's deep historical injustices from a racial standpoint and that white populations have sometimes acted as a class in itself and sometimes sabotaged widespread class solidarity for systemic material advantages, but isn't he basically advocating some kind of ethno-cultural sorting/separatism in practical terms when he talks about desettlerization? There's a lot of vague language and it seems like he oscillates a lot, and I can't really pinpoint what he's envisioning, but if it's some kind of transitional thing that supposedly precedes internationalism then I'm not sure what it is. I don't wanna misrepresent what he's saying and mischaracterize him, please help me out.

he's being vague because he's wants literal genocide but won't say that out loud. like literal, no joke, not 'what some dipshit nazi thinks is white genocide', the real deal.

it's basically what you get when you choose to be an essentialist reactionary when looking at history, but from a black perspective - racial ressentiment, absent of systemic analysis or historical materialism

# ? May 9, 2018 09:35

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

J. Sakai wants you to kill the white man in your head

# ? May 9, 2018 12:03

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

ah, I see Rachel Dolezal read J. Sakai

pretend I made that joke when she was in the news

# ? May 9, 2018 12:05

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

J. Sakai wants you to kill the white man in your head

he consistently downplays solidarity that has occurred, and when even when he grants it exists, he always portrays it as ultimately self-serving/lacking conviction. There's no way to reconcile that with a more metaphysical ideal of 'whiteness', he's essentialist, and therefore you have to read the extermination rhetoric as sincere & literal.

# ? May 9, 2018 12:33

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

rudatron posted:

he consistently downplays solidarity that has occurred, and when even when he grants it exists, he always portrays it as ultimately self-serving/lacking conviction. There's no way to reconcile that with a more metaphysical ideal of 'whiteness', he's essentialist, and therefore you have to read the extermination rhetoric as sincere & literal.

No you don't, lol.

I think J. Sakai's problem is that he's writing too much to an American audience, even though he acknowledges in interviews that "whiteness" isn't an inherent aspect of the settler mindset.

# ? May 9, 2018 12:36

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

yeah you do. he portrays real solidarity as impossible, therefore the only response left is extermination. if whiteness is inescapable, then the only way you 'kill the white in your head' is with a bullet.

And as much as 'ironic' calls to genocide is only trendy when it's against white people, I don't exactly look forward to the possibility of dying, so i'm gonna sit that one out.

# ? May 9, 2018 13:01

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Real solidarity is impossible under a settlerist framework. You can interpret that as meaning exterminationism if you want, but that's not what he's advocating. I think you're taking the racial aspect of it at face value for certain obvious reasons. :thunk:

# ? May 9, 2018 13:03

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

rudatron posted:

I don't exactly look forward to the possibility of dying

lol if you have the will to live

# ? May 9, 2018 13:04

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Real solidarity is impossible under a settlerist framework. You can interpret that as meaning exterminationism if you want, but that's not what he's advocating. I think you're taking the racial aspect of it at face value for certain obvious reasons.

He repeatedly links whiteness to 'settlerist' in a way that's impossible to untangle. You're projecting what you want to see into him, that you're the special 'exception', and can therefore escape, when there's nothing in the text to suggest that.

rudatron fucked around with this message at 13:40 on May 9, 2018

# ? May 9, 2018 13:06

Thug Lessons: Dec 14, 2006; I lust in my heart for as many dead refugees as possible.

There is no transhistorical settlerism that defines American politics from the pre-revolutionary era to the 21st century.

# ? May 9, 2018 13:16

Sheng-Ji Yang: Mar 5, 2014

Thug Lessons posted:

There is no transhistorical settlerism that defines American politics from the pre-revolutionary era to the 21st century.

# ? May 9, 2018 13:19

Wheeee: Mar 11, 2001; When a tree grows, it is soft and pliable. But when it's dry and hard, it dies.

Hardness and strength are death's companions. Flexibility and softness are the embodiment of life.

That which has become hard shall not triumph.

even the most charitable reading of sakai on this page paints him as a useless piece of poo poo

# ? May 9, 2018 14:01

GalacticAcid: Apr 8, 2013; NEW YORK VALUES

not surprised, lotta Settlers itt

# ? May 9, 2018 14:27

THS: Sep 15, 2017

i just want free healthcare

# ? May 9, 2018 14:32

R. Guyovich: Dec 25, 1991

lmao yes rudatron, people who find any value in sakai's work only do so because they believe they will be passed over in the inevitable rahowa, your interpretation of a book you absolutely have not read is 100 percent correct

# ? May 9, 2018 14:42

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

GalacticAcid posted:

not surprised, lotta Settlers itt

# ? May 9, 2018 14:46

an actual dog: Nov 18, 2014

I support rudy in not reading books

# ? May 9, 2018 14:50

Thug Lessons: Dec 14, 2006; I lust in my heart for as many dead refugees as possible.

R. Guyovich posted:

lmao yes rudatron, people who find any value in sakai's work only do so because they believe they will be passed over in the inevitable rahowa, your interpretation of a book you absolutely have not read is 100 percent correct

Sakai is unambiguous in his endorsement of racial separatism.

# ? May 9, 2018 15:00

Victory Position: Mar 16, 2004

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Real solidarity is impossible under a settlerist framework. You can interpret that as meaning exterminationism if you want, but that's not what he's advocating. I think you're taking the racial aspect of it at face value for certain obvious reasons.

the settlerist mentality as practiced by the Fire Emblem characters are infringing on the solidarity of lesser-represented franchises, writes author J. Sakurai

# ? May 9, 2018 15:13

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

R. Guyovich posted:

lmao yes rudatron, people who find any value in sakai's work only do so because they believe they will be passed over in the inevitable rahowa, your interpretation of a book you absolutely have not read is 100 percent correct

ive read the book buddy, and it's my take is correct. there isn't a single page that doesn't distort history to push a very specific thesis: that cross-racial solidarity is impossible. Under this worldview, there is no other possibility than conflict. That's what makes sakai a reactionary, regardless of the marxist rhetoric he uses - and if you 'find value' in that, then you have a troubled mind.

# ? May 9, 2018 15:21

Clochette: Aug 12, 2013

Yandat posted:

i just want free healthcare

It's not "free"

It comes from the taxes paid overwhelmingly by the working class, the wealth producers. That tax money just goes towards war and corporate welfare right now instead.

# ? May 9, 2018 15:36

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

All you really have to do is turn to the History Channel to see settlerist ideology being reinforced in the public consciousness. From that framework white identitarianism is a natural byproduct of it, and they fully embrace the notion that the country belongs to them because they built it. Solidarity is impossible if a certain group of people think that the country rightfully belongs to them because their ancestors settled and built it.

# ? May 9, 2018 15:39

THS: Sep 15, 2017

Clochette posted:

It's not "free"

It comes from the taxes paid overwhelmingly by the working class, the wealth producers. That tax money just goes towards war and corporate welfare right now instead.

it�s actually coming off the backs of the third world proletariat, labor aristocrat scum

# ? May 9, 2018 15:56

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

Yes well spotted pener, racism still exists. But you're being far too particularist about it - there's nothing there substantially different from the ideology used to legitimize any nation state. In fact, the BJP party is right now trying to exclude non-hindus from indian history, through the same retroactive projection.

But revolution always exists in one form or another, reaction and revolution have always opposed each other. The instant you deny the possibility of revolution, you become a reactionary by default - because then There Is No Alternative.

# ? May 9, 2018 15:59

Thug Lessons: Dec 14, 2006; I lust in my heart for as many dead refugees as possible.

The funny thing is these guys have it completely backwards. It's black people who have a racial consciousness that basically everyone other ethnic group in the country lacks. There's still plenty of racism among whites but they're way more divided politically, and rather than playing the central role race is only one axis of division among many. AP History-level analyses of the History Channel aside, of course.

Thug Lessons fucked around with this message at 16:19 on May 9, 2018

# ? May 9, 2018 16:06

Ruzihm: Aug 11, 2010; Group up and push mid, proletariat!

More like SUCCai

# ? May 9, 2018 16:17

Victory Position: Mar 16, 2004

ist ist ism ism suffering from collectivist autism

# ? May 9, 2018 16:21

Yossarian-22: Oct 26, 2014

killing "whiteness" is an admirable goal as long as whiteness is synonymous with hierarchy and/or identity

but aside from that and showing the shortcomings of the labor movement, j sakai is mostly bad

# ? May 9, 2018 16:42

Yossarian-22: Oct 26, 2014

im a white genocide centrist :thunk:

# ? May 9, 2018 16:42

Slow-Scan Shep: Jul 11, 2001

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

ah, I see Rachel Dolezal read J. Sakai

pretend I made that joke when she was in the news

if she did he's got an ice burn for her just ready and waiting:

J. Sakai posted:

Race as a form of class is very tangible, solid, material, as real as a tank division running over you � tank divisions, after all, are also socially constructed! About another form of this same white racist game � white New Age women deciding to play at �becoming Indian� � Women of All Red Nations activist Andy Smith used to wearily suggest that if they really really wanted to �become Indian� they should live on the rez � the u.s. colony � without running water or jobs, without heat in the winter or education for their children, with real poverty, alcoholism, and violent oppression.

Slow-Scan Shep fucked around with this message at 03:42 on May 10, 2018

# ? May 10, 2018 03:39

R. Guyovich: Dec 25, 1991

Sakai posted:

If radicalism can build small counter-currents of liberation in the overwhelmingly corrupt middle classes, why should similar work be questioned in the white working class communities? What I am fighting is the slick �Marxist� or �anarchist� opportunism, which sees aligning with the white settler majority and reform politics as the absolute necessity.

wow what a separatist

# ? May 10, 2018 04:07

R. Guyovich: Dec 25, 1991

also people pushing the thesis sakai sees whiteness as this immutable, unchanging force throughout history clearly haven't read his work

sakai, again posted:

Racism as we experience it today didn�t exist before capitalism, which is why many revolutionaries see rooting out the one as requiring rooting out the other. To Europeans before modern capitalism the most important �races� were what we would call nations. Indeed, until well into the 20th century it was widely assumed by Europeans that even different European nationalities were biologically different, and had different mental abilities and propensities. Slavs were thought to be biologically different from Nordics, and Jews were thought to be an exotic race all by themselves.

Pre-capitalist and even early capitalist Europe was a lot different from our racial stereotypes. It wasn�t that oppression and bigotry didn�t exist. Obviously, for example, there was a long tradition of anti-semitic and anti-romany persecution in �Christendom�. But the whole context of �race� was unlike what we usually think of. i was astonished to learn that in early 18th century Germany, a leading philosopher, Anton-Wilhelm Amo who lectured at the University of Halle and the University of Jena, was a Black German ( born in Africa, he also signed his name in Latin as �Amo Guinea-Africanus� or Amo the African). Or that Russia�s greatest poet, the 19th century aristocratic Pushkin, was Black by American standards. And nobody cared. And in the time of Marx and Bakunin, the major leader of early German radical unionism was also very visibly Black, and his part-Afrikan heritage accepted.

Well, what we�ve been saying all along is that �race� in modern capitalism was originally changed from an undefined difference into a disguise for �class�. Capitalism, after all, always prefers to restructure class differences in drag of some kind (all the better for their manipulations). Like Northern Ireland, where there is supposedly a �religious� or �ethnic� bloody conflict between Catholic Irish Republicans and Protestant Loyalists.

...So both racism as we know it and settlerism each had their origins in capitalist colonialism and are related, but are also quite distinct. Settler-colonial societies have a specialized history, because they started as invasion and occupation forces for Western capitalism. Usually as social garrisons in the Third World, as Western capitalism expanded out of Europe into the Americas, Afrika, Asia.

# ? May 10, 2018 04:17

THS: Sep 15, 2017

man the wikipedia on Anton-Wilhelm Amo is something, the end of the article is something. that's a life

# ? May 10, 2018 04:23

Metal Cat: Dec 25, 2017

Is there any interview or text where he goes more into detail about the desettlerization thing? Because I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the onus of clarity lies on the author if he brings up the topic.

# ? May 10, 2018 04:26

R. Guyovich: Dec 25, 1991

Metal Cat posted:

Is there any interview or text where he goes more into detail about the desettlerization thing? Because I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the onus of clarity lies on the author if he brings up the topic.

yep! it's long as gently caress, but worth reading in its entirety.

quote:

EA: One question from a listener is �how do we �de-settlerize� a country like the U.S. or Israel? Especially in a place like the U.S. where many righteous national liberation movements, such as the Black/New Afrikan and the Chicano movements especially, overlap and may contradict Native land claims and national liberation?�

JS: I don�t think any of us are going to have problems solving our relations with each other as long as we get the U.S. empire and capitalist rip-offs out of the way. There is plenty of land in America. Everyone could live here who lives here, quite well, with a lot of autonomy, lot of justice, lot of room for expression and development. But the obstacle isn�t each other, in that sense.

As for desettlerization, it�s already happening, because settlerism is a phenomenon of the past, really. All over the world, settler societies, as we saw in Africa, are going out of business. In Algeria, which was officially a province of France until the 1950s revolution, you had a million French settlers living there, and virtually the whole of the French army occupying it. Finally they all had to leave. Yeah, Algeria has a lot of problems, but it IS Algerian.

I don�t think that�s going to happen here, obviously, because there�s no place for that kind of migration to happen. But desettlerization isn�t happening that way. Like in Israel, the problem is not that Jewish people live in Palestine. The problem is there are special laws, unjust laws, that deny land to Palestinians who live there while, of course, giving land to Zionists, even though they may have no connection whatsoever to Palestine that anybody can prove, except they say they follow the Jewish religion. They come from Russia, they come from Brooklyn, they come from wherever.

People look at America and they don�t see how America could be desettlerized, but it�s being desettlerized right now.

It�s funny. The place where I work, the other guys who work there are Mexican. They�re not Chicano. Mexican. First-generation. This is not their home � their home is back in Mexico. Very conservative family people in a social way. More conservative than I am, for sure. They�re exactly the kind of Mexican that the Republican Party and Bush are aiming at as the ideal minority. In fact, some of the guys voted for Bush, because he sounded like a better leader or something. So they�re not radical in any political sense whatsoever.

But it�s interesting when you talk to them about America. They don�t believe in the United States. At all. What they think is that the United States and Mexico are one country. To them it isn�t just Aztlan. It isn�t just the Southwest. It�s that, there�s Mexico, which is, to them, a special place, a really good place. Too poor, but a good place. As they say, �it has everything but money.� And then there�s America. Lots of different people live there. They think that�s great, and just how it should be. But, they�ve noticed this funny thing. And I don�t want to insult anybody, but the way they look at it, Americans don�t like to work. We�re in the suburbs, and there are Mexicans all over the place, of course. All the landscaping, porters, guys unloading trucks, people laying masonry for the patios, all the workers are Mexican. So their view is they don�t quite understand America, but they�ve figured out one thing: real Americans aren�t into working. They don�t understand it, but ok, fine by them. To them, there�s this huge land, which frankly needs them, because they�re the people who are going to do the work. They actually don�t believe in a separate United States in any sense of the word � immigration laws, borders. They think that�s nonsense. It isn�t just because of the legal history, but really, to them, it�s their country as much as it is anyone else�s. And they�re not nationalistic in any narrow sense about it. They talk about the fact that, �yeah, Mexican guys live here.� One guy knows a guy who married a Polish woman, who immigrated from Poland, and he think that�s great. But to them, America doesn�t belong to the people who call themselves Americans. That�s where they differ from Republicans and George Bush. They�re part of an actual reversal of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hildago that�s going on, only it�s happening in a very postmodern way. It isn�t simply reversal in terms of the Southwest. Clearly the whole character of the Southwest is changing year by year.

I�m in the Midwest, and when the Mexican Consulate said it was going to issue the ID cards so that people could get bank accounts and everything else, we literally had a traffic jam. There were 10,000 people lined up on the main business street. Completely bizarre. And all the right-wingers are having fits! They�re writing letters to the newspaper saying, �this Mexican ID card is as good as an American birth certificate. How could you let this happen?� But the logic of modern globalized life is that they have to. The banks want bank accounts with this money in it, so they want these people to have consular IDs, which aren�t American in any way whatsoever. You can just see, year by year, the whole shift starting to happen socially, culturally. That is has to happen in a political sense, of course, and it hasn�t yet. But you certainly can see the underlying migration that is a migration not just geographically, but is changing politics just as surely as when Black people left the South and emigrated to the Northern industrial cities, or when we Asians came to Hawaii and the West Coast in the nineteenth century.

EA: Is that how you see desettlerization working, where you see this migration of peoples? It sounds like how that is working in practice? Would you say that is how desettlerization will happen?

JS: That�s the underlying historical thing that can happen, but it isn�t going to deal with the whole political struggle, which we�re now engaged in, because, of course, the white settler population has essentially had a historic 400-year pact with capitalism, which is that they will get the best of everything. Maybe that won�t be a lot, but it will be the best of the little. They will get the best of everything that is available in return for supporting capitalism and the U.S. empire and its conquest over other people, as well as its exploitation. Well, frankly, globalization and the desettlerization of North America is threatening that. How long can you have a population in which more and more people don�t actually work? I mean, you say the word �welfare� in America and everybody�s supposed to picture a Black woman in a housing project. But the real welfare is for white middle-class people. You have entire office buildings and cities full of people who don�t actually produce anything. They move paper around, they bill people, they do things, but they don�t actually produce anything. Everything that is produced is produced somewhere else by somebody else. And the question is how long can that be maintained?

I would say it�s breaking down even now. It certainly is in Europe, and that�s why there are fascist movements and all this right-wing stuff happening in Europe. Because the social compact is breaking down, and it�s going to happen here too. And the political struggle is not going to happen peacefully, in the sense that it�s not going to be some gradual social process. The underlying economics are one thing. The political struggle over who gets what out of that and whether there will be a just society or not is a whole �nother question.

# ? May 10, 2018 04:46

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# ? May 26, 2024 14:01

Metal Cat: Dec 25, 2017

That's the interview I linked in my original post. I was hoping there was a sort of roadmap-ish analysis of how he sees that happening. Any other text you can recommend?

# ? May 10, 2018 04:55

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > There is a spectrum haunting C-SPAM. I, on the contrary,

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