|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:That seems extremely unusual. Is there any evidence of this? Especially any evidence that this is common or even widespread. This ain't the thread to debate political ideologies and definitions, so I'll just say that this is the crux of the debate and leave it at that.
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 18:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 00:31 |
|
|
Gawker were loving idiots and deserved everything they got
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 18:54
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:obama was center-right as is most of the party. you’d see a lot less donating to Democrats if they called for proper tax brackets, corporate taxation, and labor protection. "voting obama is right wing" seems like the sort of thing I'd hear from a guy working at a tech startup more than basically any other industry that exists.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 18:55
|
|
|
Kobayashi posted:What I mean is that the dominant ideology of the SV tech industry is that if we just tech a little harder, all of the world's problems will be solved. Sure, just every startup thinks a problem in its particular domain can be solved with tech, but that's not even close to what you said. Almost nobody even in the tech industry thinks we're gonna tech our way out of homelessness, for example.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 18:56
|
|
|
he was right wing economically. is this tough for ya?
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 18:57
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:I would basically place money that the answer to all of these are much much higher among tech industry than among general Americans. Probably not even close. According to your own Vox link: Tech Entrepreneurs are more anti-regulation than the general public and are more pro-free trade than the general public. They support price gouging more than the general public. 82% percent of tech entrepreneurs think it’s too difficult to fire workers and want the government to make it easier to do so. 74% percent want labor unions’ influence to decrease.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 18:58
|
|
|
"Tech companies and techies are conservative, and I can prove it as long as I get to redefine conservative to something totally different from how it's normally used" Yeah okay guys, great work there. Jesus Christ. ryonguy posted:In other words, not leftist at all except by accident. Trabant posted:Even if their motivation for standing on the right side of history is very much economic. Like nobody says, "oh sure these companies and individuals running them are being lovely conservatives loving over the poor, but their reasons are purely economic so it's not as bad", but if they ever do anything good for economic reasons, well then it doesn't count because money.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 18:59
|
|
|
ryonguy posted:
Now you're just shifting the goalposts. Given that large % of them are willing to pay more taxes for universal healthcare, the majority of tech workers are probably leftist enough to support those things. A survey only asks so many questions, support for higher taxation and income redistribution is further left than most of america.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 19:00
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:he was right wing economically. is this tough for ya? Okay, sure, "voting Obama is a right wing action" is absolutely a valid opinion and if that is the measure of being on the left then I would still imagine that is a rare opinion in any industry but that it is less rare in tech workers and tech startups than nearly any other industry that exists.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 19:03
|
|
|
quote:There's a reason libertarianism is so pervasive in tech. quote:Libertarianism is a very small scale ideology, so it can be both more prevalent in Tech (especially among management) while at the same time still a minority of the population. quote:you literally posted that like 83% of them support democrats, who are at best a centrist organization quote:The party of NAFTA and life time limits on welfare is not leftist. quote:obama was center-right as is most of the party. you’d see a lot less donating to Democrats if they called for proper tax brackets, corporate taxation, and labor protection.  I mean come on guys. Seriously now.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 19:05
|
|
|
Nothingtoseehere posted:Now you're just shifting the goalposts. Given that large % of them are willing to pay more taxes for universal healthcare, the majority of tech workers are probably leftist enough to support those things. A survey only asks so many questions, support for higher taxation and income redistribution is further left than most of america. Except the actual research is more nuanced than the Vox piece: quote:Technology entrepreneurs are much more skeptical of government regulation than other Democrats; even technology entrepreneurs who identify as Democrats are much more opposed to regulation than are other Democrats. Technology entrepreneurs also overwhelmingly hope to see labor unions’ influence decline. Technology entrepreneurs’ views on government regulation and labor much more closely resemble Republican donors and citizens’ views than Democrats’ views. However, we show that technology entrepreneurs’ values and predispositions are also key to understanding their views even in this domain. In particular, we show that technology entrepreneurs’ preferences are not a byproduct of being wealthy or educated. In addition, although self-interest surely plays some role in their views, we also present survey experiments that suggest technology entrepreneurs’ skepticism of government regulation and control does not appear to be rooted in self-interest alone. Rather, their predispositions—in this case, positive predispositions towards markets and entrepreneurship—still appear important to understanding the sources of their policy preferences. Note, that the paper uses this definition of libertarian: quote:The surveys asked whether individuals agreed or disagreed with the statement “I would like to live in a society where government does nothing except provide national defense and police protection, so that people could be left alone to earn whatever they could.” I think the post early hits the nail on the head: Kobayashi posted:I'm not going to get in a semantic debate with you, the very personification of the people this thread is making fun of. There is no version of this conversation that we don't talk past each other. Nonetheless, this is my one good faith attempt to expand on my snark. When I say "libertarian," I mean lower-case "L," or perhaps "techno-utopian." What I mean is that the dominant ideology of the SV tech industry is that if we just tech a little harder, all of the world's problems will be solved. There's essentially no role for government under this ideology. SV and SF are somewhat unique in that tech workers make boatloads of money and are more comfortable with taxation that essentially amounts to government-funded charity, but support for policies that actually challenge the power dynamics of the tech industry is much lower. In other words, it's not unusual to be a straight-ticket voting, capital-D Democrat with a mostly little-L libertarian ideology. On the other hand, lots of people in this thread, myself included, identify capitalism itself for poo poo like shoddily-programmed auto-driving cars mowing down pedestrians. The big tech companies are themselves products of capitalism, and so this thread exists as a kind of gallows humor. Tech Entrepreneurs reject a traditional label of libertarianism because they do see use for the government, hoisting off services not profitable enough to run. They support universal healthcare because they don't want to have to pay for employee healthcare and they support expanded immigration because they want more cheap visas. But they still see markets and entrepreneurism as the solution and their job as entrepreneurs as the most important part of the economy. So they're fundamentally not leftists even if they support socializing an industry or increased immigration.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 19:11
|
|
|
Cicero posted:You're wrong. And not just a little bit, but incredibly so. Right, although we've made fun of the occasional startup that tried to monetize the homeless by turning them into wireless hotspots. The more common refrain is the ideologically bankrupt line that "we need to teach them to code."
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 19:14
|
|
|
tech workers are basically that old crushingbort tweet that went "hmm well I'd say I'm fiscally conservative but socially very liberal. the problems are bad but their causes... their causes are very good" they are okay with the gays and maybe even the blacks but in the end, fygm
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 19:32
|
|
|
TheFluff posted:tech workers are basically that old crushingbort tweet that went "hmm well I'd say I'm fiscally conservative but socially very liberal. the problems are bad but their causes... their causes are very good" They are basically that except for every survey and poll and metric that looks to see if they are that which says solidly and unequivocally that they aren't that to the point you have to twist yourself into a knot to claim voting obama is proof someone is libertarian to try to preserve a worldview that the tech industry is in any way more conservative than the US. It turns out that a group that is very young and very educated and mostly lives in cities ends up pretty far left by most standards. I actually bet that some percentage of "I am the most far left and also no one but me is to the left, voting for obama is a rightist act" people in this thread work in some field in the tech industry (since that is so common in general on SA) and are just conveniently not mentioning that because they don't want to admit they are less special and unique than they think.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 19:45
|
|
|
TheFluff posted:tech workers are basically that old crushingbort tweet that went "hmm well I'd say I'm fiscally conservative but socially very liberal. the problems are bad but their causes... their causes are very good" Moving the goalposts to match exactly what they say they are is an argument in bad faith though. Owlofcreamcheese posted:bleeble fart poop Hey remember those progressive and liberal tech people that tried to prevent neighborhood kids from using their own goddamn park?
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 19:50
|
|
|
ryonguy posted:Hey remember those progressive and liberal tech people that tried to prevent neighborhood kids from using their own goddamn park? It's weird how the evidence they are to the left is always actual surveys or polls or data and the evidence they are to the right is always some one specific thing that happened that is supposed to be applied universally to everyone. Even if something said 99% aren't conservative then 1% are.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 19:55
|
|
|
ryonguy posted:Moving the goalposts to match exactly what they say they are is an argument in bad faith though. Where is the evidence that tech workers say they are fiscally conservative?
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 19:57
|
|
|
I'M THE TRUE LEFTIST
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 19:59
|
|
|
Awesome seeing Google employees claiming some leftish vibes when the C-suite superPACs are plowing money into every conservative shithead. IC opinions or sentiment don't matter in the slightest when huge gobs of profit are getting the GOP elected, arguing the specific percentages of survey respondents seems misguided.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 20:03
|
|
|
JawnV6 posted:Awesome seeing Google employees claiming some leftish vibes when the C-suite superPACs are plowing money into every conservative shithead. IC opinions or sentiment don't matter in the slightest when huge gobs of profit are getting the GOP elected, arguing the specific percentages of survey respondents seems misguided. Can you link to evidence of this?
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 20:04
|
|
|
"Oh my god somebody impugned the nobility of people who make apps that monitor your farts! How gauche!"Jose Valasquez posted:Where is the evidence that tech workers say they are fiscally conservative? gently caress man, pretend a bunch of rich assholes who create every problem in this thread totally want to make the world a better place (as long as it doesn't impact their portfolios) if you want, I don't give a poo poo.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 20:06
|
|
|
ryonguy posted:"Oh my god somebody impugned the nobility of people who make apps that monitor your farts! How gauche!" tech workers != tech CEOs
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 20:07
|
|
|
Jose Valasquez posted:tech workers != tech CEOs
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 20:09
|
|
|
No, actually I'm not. The post you were quoting that I was responding to said tech workers, not tech CEOs
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 20:10
|
|
|
Jose Valasquez posted:tech workers != tech CEOs tech CEOs are more leftward than other CEOS, tech workers are more leftward than other workers. It really is pretty across the board. People just want in their heart for it to not be that way. To like... combine enemies or deny someone with the same political leaning at them could be also bad or something?
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 20:11
|
|
|
Total Meatlove posted:Gawker were loving idiots and deserved everything they got Do you just post this randomly in threads or something?
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 20:26
|
|
|
Slanderer posted:Do you just post this randomly in threads or something? peter thiel is people's proof forever and always that all people working in tech are forever and ever far right conservatives. He worked in tech and is conservative so everyone in tech is. forever and always. You are just supposed to recognize gawker = the thiel thing = proof all technology is right wing
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 20:34
|
|
|
Slanderer posted:Do you just post this randomly in threads or something? Me no quote good (was a point made further up thread) ryonguy posted:
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 20:37
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:peter thiel is people's proof forever and always that all people working in tech are forever and ever far right conservatives. He worked in tech and is conservative so everyone in tech is. forever and always. You are just supposed to recognize gawker = the thiel thing = proof all technology is right wing Well, and the article you posted makes the case that tech entrepreneurs are massively anti-regulation, anti-union and want to make it easier to fire people. But you're correct Peter Thiel is a good example, but we could also use anti-union Musk, anti-union Bezos, or Rubio-supporter Ellison if you prefer, just to name some of the more famous ones.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 20:45
|
|
|
Trabisnikof posted:But you're correct Peter Thiel is a good example Is he a good example because he actually illustrates anything actually common or widespread or is he a good example because he represents a worldview that you WANT to be true that is not supported by any data so picking on some specific example that falls into how you want things to be overwhelms actual data that things aren't that way? Haven't you mentioned in this very thread that you work in tech? anyway?
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 21:19
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:I actually bet that some percentage of "I am the most far left and also no one but me is to the left, voting for obama is a rightist act" people in this thread work in some field in the tech industry (since that is so common in general on SA) and are just conveniently not mentioning that because they don't want to admit they are less special and unique than they think. I touch computers for a living (not in the US, though) and that's why I said what I said. Sure I know actually left-leaning people in my field, but a lot of people (and especially the less politically aware ones) are pretty much as I described. Highly educated white collar workers living in big cities are by far the most socially liberal group in most western countries and so they tend to not vote for right wing populists - that's completely unsurprising. They do earn a lot of money though and while some of them may appreciate certain amounts of welfare I really don't see a lot of them being all that hot on paying higher taxes or supporting labor unions. A lot of them are also surprisingly naive when it comes to their own field and gladly buy into Silicon Valley hype about AI and blockchain and whatever the gently caress.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 22:04
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:Is he a good example because he actually illustrates anything actually common or widespread or is he a good example because he represents a worldview that you WANT to be true that is not supported by any data so picking on some specific example that falls into how you want things to be overwhelms actual data that things aren't that way? You keep ignoring my posts when I make this point, so I'm sure you'll just ignore this too, this from your own sources: quote:even technology entrepreneurs who identify as Democrats are much more opposed to regulation than are other Democrats. Technology entrepreneurs also overwhelmingly hope to see labor unions’ influence decline. Technology entrepreneurs’ views on government regulation and labor much more closely resemble Republican donors and citizens’ views than Democrats’ views 82% percent of tech entrepreneurs think it’s too difficult to fire workers and want the government to make it easier to do so. 74% percent want labor unions’ influence to decrease. So yes, the concept that Thiel's worldview is widely held among tech entrepreneurs is backed up by the data. quote:Haven't you mentioned in this very thread that you work in tech? anyway? I normally don't answer personal questions from weirdos online, but you'll make a big deal out of it, but no, I don't work in the tech industry.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 22:41
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:They are basically that except for every survey and poll and metric that looks to see if they are that which says solidly and unequivocally that they aren't that to the point you have to twist yourself into a knot to claim voting obama is proof someone is libertarian to try to preserve a worldview that the tech industry is in any way more conservative than the US.  By American standards, perhaps. By the rest of the world's standards, your Democrat party is a centre-right party and Bernie Sanders, who is such an outlier that he got millions of Murricans frothing about reds and commies, is centre-left. By the rest of the world's standards, the only groups in the US who are anywhere to the left of centre are those socialist groups in Seattle who managed to get cost-of-living wage increases mandated.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 22:53
|
|
|
Weatherman posted:By the rest of the world's standards, the only groups in the US who are anywhere to the left of centre are those socialist groups in Seattle who managed to get cost-of-living wage increases mandated. Yeah? I bet even if you do the absurd thing of declaring literally everyone in the US conservative other than that group that you'd still find that a bunch of young people in seattle are more represented in the tech industry than the average population or other industries or whatever. Like I think you pretty much have to declare true leftism doesn't exist before you can define it in a way that a bunch of young highly educated people in like SF don't end up in there totally disproportionately. I bet card carrying communists have a higher incidence in tech just by geographical and demographic overlap for silicon valley and seattle.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 23:24
|
|
|
I know Detroit area tech workers are well further left than your average midwestern worker.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 23:26
|
|
|
Sundae posted:
the democratic party in the united states is center-right. that aint goal post shifting.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 23:31
|
|
|
"Tech workers don't count as leftwing because they don't have a left-enough party to vote for" is a spicy fuckin take.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2018 23:41
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:the democratic party in the united states is center-right. that aint goal post shifting. The goal post shifting is trying to claim tech companies are right wing, finding out that only 8% voted trump and then declaring that is proof they are right wing because only a right winger would vote for right wing hillary clinton. Like what can they do? "96 percent of tech entrepreneurs support same-sex marriage, 79 percent view abortion as a matter of personal choice, 82 percent favor gun control, and 67 percent oppose the death penalty. 83 percent support higher taxes on people making $1 million or more per year (76 percent support higher taxes on those making at least $250,000), while 59 percent support increasing spending on federal programs for the poor; only 6 percent support cutting them. And 82 percent say they support universal healthcare even if it requires raising taxes." Like as someone points out they aren't great on unions, so that is a way they could be even more left wing if they got on board with that. But they are already the most left group of CEOs of any industry. and left of the vast majority of america and a lot of europe. (the highest support for same sex marriage in europe appears to be spain with 77% support which is far to the right of the tech ceos)
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2018 00:06
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:the democratic party in the united states is center-right. that aint goal post shifting. Read the quotes in my response and watch as the thread moves from "tech is libertarian" to "Obama is center right on a global scale." You're right that, globally-speaking, he is. It has nothing to do with the original statement. God drat, stop making me defend OOCC of all people. It makes me feel dirty.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2018 00:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 00:31 |
|
|
"Bernie Sanders is center left but the Democrats are center right" is pretty hilarious considering there was barely any difference between Sanders positions and the party platform of 2016 - or indeed, Hillary Clinton's platform. Just goes to show how shallow faux-leftists are I guess! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2018 01:30
|
|
