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I mean, what do you expect Jamey to do without actual proof? TG is a pretty small industry. I imagine that you can't just put a working partner on blast without negatively affecting all future working relationships.
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May 9, 2018 20:49
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Are the expansions for terraforming mars any good?
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May 9, 2018 20:55
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He did a good enough job to keep it under wraps for what, almost 2 years? Sucks, but by the same token at least he did a good job at it. Not Far West by any stretch of the imagination.
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May 9, 2018 20:58
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Shadow225 posted:I mean, what do you expect Jamey to do without actual proof? There's plenty of proof? He went as far as to cover up his copying with fake step by step progress pics. jmzero posted:Not doing so here is awful, Sirlin sort of territory (even if it's probably not legally actionable) This is way worse than Sirlin Games typical creative laziness. If Disney or CD Projekt Red saw their art assets or talent likenesses being used in a game Stonemaier Games could cease to exist overnight. Disney has shut down people over much smaller cases. Anyways, Broom Service is getting a card game, which I have high hopes for. The board game is a really cute and solid little game, and the card game will hopefully be just as good. \/ this but unironically. His personal and business reputation should be more important for his long term career than defending a blatant hack. He should have taken a much more even approach at the least, not hand waved it all as not a big deal. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 21:07 on May 9, 2018 |
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May 9, 2018 21:01
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Shadow225 posted:I mean, what do you expect Jamey to do without actual proof? TG is a pretty small industry. I imagine that you can't just put a working partner on blast without negatively affecting all future working relationships. I feel that Jamey should have immediately and publicly excoriated his business partner and key contributor to a venture that generated a significant amount of profit and goodwill for his company based on this Reddit post.
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May 9, 2018 21:01
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https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/192735/broom-service-card-game Do you mean this one from two years ago, or is there another one coming?
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May 9, 2018 21:08
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Bottom Liner posted:There's plenty of proof? He went as far as to cover up his copying with fake step by step progress pics. Bottom Liner posted:Anyways, Broom Service is getting a card game, which I have high hopes for. The board game is a really cute and solid little game, and the card game will hopefully be just as good.
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May 9, 2018 21:08
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Merauder posted:Broom Service card game has been out for a while now, I picked it up at BGG Con last year. It's literally just a worse version than the board game. Ah drat. And yeah I just saw it as a pre-order on CSI and somehow never knew about it before. As for the legal matters of the art, the Witcher and Bucky ones are damning and would probably be a slam dunk with Disney or CDPR legal teams but I was talking about it from an ethical standpoint. Stonemayer has way more clout than Jakub in the industry and wouldn't be hurt in the slightest by cutting ties with him on any future products as Shadow mentioned. Also, Antiplano thoughts anyone? I thought Orleans was ok but nothing special.
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May 9, 2018 21:12
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Bottom Liner posted:There's plenty of proof? He went as far as to cover up his copying with fake step by step progress pics. I agree that it looks bad, but I wouldn't go so far as to call that proof. Also your bottom statement is at odds with itself; his business reputation would be negatively impacted if he crucified his business partner. I think that you are also vastly overestimating the impact that this will have on Stonemaier. Once the last expansion drops, Jamey at worst quietly doesn't use the guy anymore. Pretend I posted that Sonic Ethical Consumption picture here e: I too am curious about Altiplano
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May 9, 2018 21:14
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Japanese Dating Sim posted:I feel that Jamey should have immediately and publicly excoriated his business partner and key contributor to a venture that generated a significant amount of profit and goodwill for his company based on this Reddit post. Rewording things as bizarre hyperbole doesn't really make for interesting argument. But to clarify: he didn't need to do anything "immediately" - but he has gone on record (before actually investigating all the sources) and it will close off his possible responses going forward. He didn't need to "excoriate", but he probably should have apologized sincerely instead of being dismissive. And, since he doesn't seem to be denying the meat of the allegations, what does it matter that it came from a Reddit post? And do you really think he should not say this was wrong because it earned him a lot of money? All the profit and goodwill he's gained is a reason to take the allegations more seriously, not less. Edit: To be clear, I don't think he needs to do anything crazy or throw buddy under the bus or anything, but this game is a big money making venture. He should have taken this seriously, investigated what sources were used, and probably tried to pay them. Then make a statement that doesn't minimize or hand-wave, and just says: "sorry we didn't credit these guys originally". Take the high road, tie everything off nicely, and credit the artists/photographers whose work you're using. This is not that hard. quote:This is way worse than Sirlin Games typical creative laziness. I meant specifically the stolen chip design for Puzzle Strike. jmzero fucked around with this message at 21:20 on May 9, 2018 |
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May 9, 2018 21:16
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Bottom Liner posted:Also, Antiplano thoughts anyone? I thought Orleans was ok but nothing special. Similar to my Broom Service card game comment, the almost unanimous response I've heard is that it's fine but far from worth owning if you already have Orleans. And if you didn't care much for Orleans, Altiplano is even less likely to be your jam. I haven't played it first hand though, so, grain of salt, etc.
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May 9, 2018 21:20
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If I wasn't on my phone I'd make a gif showing how those pictures overlap 99% perfectly because that's all the proof a judge cares about.
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May 9, 2018 21:22
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Merauder posted:Similar to my Broom Service card game comment, the almost unanimous response I've heard is that it's fine but far from worth owning if you already have Orleans. And if you didn't care much for Orleans, Altiplano is even less likely to be your jam. I haven't played it first hand though, so, grain of salt, etc. You just keep raining on my hype parade! But thanks, this thread keeps my collection tight and saves me money.
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May 9, 2018 21:23
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Bottom Liner posted:You just keep raining on my hype parade! But thanks, this thread keeps my collection tight and saves me money. Yeah, I was super pumped for it when it got announced, because I really like Orleans a lot. But everyone I've talked to has had a pretty luke-warm response to it. Oh well. There's only TEN THOUSAND OTHER GAMES to choose from instead.
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May 9, 2018 21:24
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Bottom Liner posted:You just keep raining on my hype parade! But thanks, this thread keeps my collection tight and saves me money. This thread saves you money?
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May 9, 2018 21:27
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FulsomFrank posted:This thread saves you money? Absolutely! I went through the typical curve of get into board games > buy everything that seems interesting > burn out on all the garbage > become a
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May 9, 2018 21:30
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I vaguely remember someone having words about Decrypto. I can't find it via the search function, so if you have an opinion hit me with it
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May 9, 2018 21:32
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Shadow225 posted:I vaguely remember someone having words about Decrypto. I can't find it via the search function, so if you have an opinion hit me with it That was me a few weeks back. Easy to track down in my post history I'm sure. Here you go.
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May 9, 2018 21:34
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Bottom Liner posted:At this rate I'll be playing 18XX and wargames in a year or two. That was my path and I've never looked back.
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May 9, 2018 21:35
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Ugh Jamey Stegmayer is doubling down on his defense of Jakub and hanging on the semantics of tracing vs recreating the pieces by hand exactly. quote:Do you actually have any proof of this, though? It's a big accusation to make. I mean this sincerely, not in a defensive way: Do you have actual proof that Jakub painted over, say, the tiger versus him looking at the photo of the tiger and painting it from that reference on a separate screen? I agree that the tiger's stripes look very similar to the photo of the tiger--really, there's no question that Jakub used that photograph as a reference. But if you're going to accuse him of tracing it, I feel like you need actual proof of that. No Jamey, the important thing is you don't use stolen art assets that put your company in legal jeopardy in your product. Some of those examples are from other working artists, mega corporations IPs, etc. It doesn't matter if he literally put one picture on another and traced, or copy and pasted and cloned out and filtered it (this is how he did it almost assuredly), or painted a 1:1 recreation by hand. It's still stolen assets. 
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May 9, 2018 21:40
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Merauder posted:That was me a few weeks back. Easy to track down in my post history I'm sure. Here you go. bless you. I am very steamed that the search function on this dying forum is dying!
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May 9, 2018 21:41
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What exactly is the problem? You can base your art on a 'trace' of an existing image, but it still takes a lot of work and skill to create a new image from that base. I know someone who gets paid hundreds of pounds for oil paintings based on pets that everyone knows is traced the photo the owner provides. It's taking that trace and getting the right colour, tone and shape on top of that base converted to the new mesium. Not all all art has to be freehanded. People are stunned he traced a reference image of a spider tank? All the colour work and shading and void because they copied the outline? Not that I particularly feel for the Scythe art, but that 'revalation' isn't really much. I haven't seen the tutorials though so don't know what he did in them. If someone says it's the copying and credit, fair enough by that original resist copy paste is all about the art and nothing about credit.
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May 9, 2018 21:42
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Man, you'd think someone in an industry where not straight up ripping off other people is just a gentleman's agreement would have stronger words about an artist they hired ripping off someone else's work. The other factor is that they're probably wanting to keep quiet in case a lawsuit rolls up. I remember reading something about an artist who saw a company was using their copyrighted work on a t-shirt or logo or something. Company told them to pound sand, because they had paid some dude on fiverr or taskrabbit to do it, and that guy had just passed it off as his own work. Artist won the suit and collected damages from the company, even though they believed they had actually legitimately purchased the copyright to an original work. If someone brought suit against them, the publisher is probably ultimately on the hook for it
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May 9, 2018 21:42
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Fat Turkey posted:What exactly is the problem? You can base your art on a 'trace' of an existing image, but it still takes a lot of work and skill to create a new image from that base. I know someone who gets paid hundreds of pounds for oil paintings based on pets that everyone knows is traced the photo the owner provides. It's taking that trace and getting the right colour, tone and shape on top of that base converted to the new mesium. Not all all art has to be freehanded. The biggest issue is one of credit. Just like copying text without sourcing is plagiarism, manipulating or tracing art without sourcing is infringement. As to your example, digital art is a different beast from traditional art because of how easy it is to manipulate imagery on a computer. I'm not going to get into an argument about what is or isn't art, but the person who paints animal photos is converting one medium (a photo) to another (a painting) which requires mastery of the physical medium. Anybody with Photoshop can take a digital image, scale it, recolor it, add a few touches, and call it their own and with the ease of looking up everything on Google (despite Google offering tools to show you license free art) it leads to situations where a trailer for Uncharted 4 has Assassin's Creed concept art in it and no one at Naughty Dog notices until the internet roasts them.
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May 9, 2018 21:57
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Merauder posted:Your definition of proof and the legal definition of proof are unlikely to be the same. The legal definition of proof is "whatever gets decided in court." If legal standards were clear cut and easy to apply we wouldn't need much of a justice system. Infringement cases have definitely been won on less. But Jakub seems to have some notion of self-preservation when it comes to picking his targets: there seems to be a sort of sliding scale at work where the more directly he's competing with something the less directly he infringes on it. So, he'll straight up copy & paste random animals and pastoral imagery and just slap a filter on it. A random photographer doesn't have a lot of motivation to sue over their stock photo of a tiger, and if they did, they'd have a hard time showing that Scythe owes them any monetary damages from lost sales, or even that Jakub's use of their tiger photo in the context of apocalyptic steampunk wars isn't "transformative" enough to merit a fair use exemption. At the opposite extreme, he liberally rips off concepts from Dust Tactics but seems to scrupulously avoid touching their actual artwork. It's a competing steampunk game, so using their art assets to make his own steampunk game is not at all transformative and it very obviously and directly cuts into the owners' bottom line. If he got caught copying & pasting their art he could very rapidly find himself in an actual ruin-your-life nightmare scenario. But "two legged steampunk mech with a trapezoidal breastplate that has a red star on it" is, by itself, something that's not likely to be found worthy of copyright protection, so he's probably safe. Then there's a sort of continuum in between the two where he modifies things to varying degrees depending on how close they are to one or the other. He does elaborate paintovers of competing steampunk artists that aren't selling games, but random historical imagery and cosplayers might just get a few touchups, etc.
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May 9, 2018 21:58
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al-azad posted:Anybody with Photoshop can take a digital image, scale it, recolor it, add a few touches, and call it their own and with the ease of looking up everything on Google Did he do that though? Just rescale and recolour? I haven't zoomed in on the picture but for things like the man on the horse and the guys lying near sheep, he isn't using anything of the original image other than the outline. All the brushwork and colouring is his own from my brief look. People are talking like it's all fraudulent. And again, the original Reddit post doesn't have any beef with the credit, the focus is purely on the art style.
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May 9, 2018 22:18
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There are very clear examples of him blatantly copy pasting stuff, I posted plenty of the examples. If you've ever done any comp work in photoshop it's pretty clear some of his "references" are the exact image pasted into his own piece. The reddit post on boardgames was "Seems like Jakub Rozalski isn't very truthful about his art" and the linked post was "The truth behind the art of jakub rozalski" so I don't know where you're seeing people just attacking his style. People have pretty universally praised his work, which is why this is such a big deal to so many people.
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May 9, 2018 22:26
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Fat Turkey posted:Did he do that though? Just rescale and recolour? I haven't zoomed in on the picture but for things like the man on the horse and the guys lying near sheep, he isn't using anything of the original image other than the outline. All the brushwork and colouring is his own from my brief look. People are talking like it's all fraudulent. It really isn't the outline, though. If I saw this image out of context I would've been like "is this art for a new Witcher game?"[/url] and that's enough for CD Projekt to shut it down. But like, even with the addition of alterations and touch ups you're still manipulating someone else's work and this is what's frustrating about trying to explain to people the differences between referencing and copying. Using your example, if two artists made an oil painting from the same cat photo the results would probably look similar but not identical because of the skill involved and perception of the individual artists. But here the final pieces aren't just recognizable to the original, they're practically identical because so little has gone in to cover the original creator's work.
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May 9, 2018 22:35
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Shadow225 posted:I mean, what do you expect Jamey to do without actual proof? TG is a pretty small industry. I imagine that you can't just put a working partner on blast without negatively affecting all future working relationships. Artists and designers get their work stolen all the time and are usually in solidarity with the wronged party. they know how lovely it is. Enabling a thief will negatively affect his future working relationships.
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May 9, 2018 23:05
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You guys are gonna be so pissed off when you find out about Richard Prince.
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May 9, 2018 23:15
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What he's doing could be called creating a derivative work, which is owned by the creator of the original work. Now as mentioned the courts will have to decide, but really Stonemaier needs to get permission next time if that's the way he wants his games to be illustrated. The courts won't care about how much credit he gives.
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May 9, 2018 23:34
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CaptainRightful posted:You guys are gonna be so pissed off when you find out about Richard Prince. The difference here being Jakub is not producing fine art, but commercial work for a game being published and sold to market. Completely different use means different laws cover it. I can take a portrait of a stranger in public without permission and sell prints in a gallery, but I can’t use that image in advertising for say the brand of shoes they’re wearing.
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May 9, 2018 23:42
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al-azad posted:It really isn't the outline, though. If I saw this image out of context I would've been like "is this art for a new Witcher game?"[/url] and that's enough for CD Projekt to shut it down. It really isn't. quote:But like, even with the addition of alterations and touch ups you're still manipulating someone else's work and this is what's frustrating about trying to explain to people the differences between referencing and copying. Using your example, if two artists made an oil painting from the same cat photo the results would probably look similar but not identical because of the skill invol and perception of the individual artists. But here the final pieces aren't just recognizable to the original, they're practically identical because so little has gone in to cover the original creator's work. Roy Liechstenstein will blow your mind. I'm focussing more here on the photo to picture conversion, where I'm pretty sure not a pixel of the original image appears. The sheep, the man on horse, the tanks. The form is a trace, but unless you're telling me he's passed a Photoshop filter over the original to produce this, then the colour work is his own. It's not original, but it's not artistically void. Which is what your paragraph here seems to be suggesting.
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May 9, 2018 23:45
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Fat Turkey posted:Roy Liechstenstein will blow your mind. Lichtenstein! Lichtenstein is the painter, Liechtenstein is the country. 
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May 10, 2018 00:02
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Haha, I bet you correct that a lot! You're right, I wasnt sure about the e but I threw in an s too. I'm sorry and thank you for the correction.
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May 10, 2018 00:06
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al-azad posted:It really isn't the outline, though. If I saw this image out of context I would've been like "is this art for a new Witcher game?"[/url] and that's enough for CD Projekt to shut it down. I was kinda ambivalent about the art because I don't really care for the "put legs on things that probably shouldn't have them" aesthetic, but looking at the pictures more, the composition is really bizarre to me and this kind of technique makes that make perfect sense.
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May 10, 2018 00:40
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jmzero posted:I don't care about whether an artist is demonstrating skill; I don't care about "cheating" or something. But he should have credited sources for the material he re-used. This is how I feel, a lot of the stuff he does is cool and it would still be cool if he had been up front about his technique, which seems to be more like a tracing collage than drawing something original.
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May 10, 2018 00:43
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Reading through the threads about the Scythe controversy on BGG vs Reddit are pretty interesting. I have never understood the forum culture on bgg where, when confronted with something like this, the reactions just don't seem human to me. I guess it's some kind of weird cognitive bias. I see in that thread maybe 80% of the posters immediately started tripping over themselves to start gagging on the Jakub's wooden meeple dick, and saying "doesn't look like anything to me," after looking at the dozens of examples like we're living in a surreal westworld - boardgame mashup. This goes for anything even close to neutral, or god forbid a mild criticism of a game or designer. I don't get it, but then again, I grew up lurking here and well that probably explains a lot of things.
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May 10, 2018 01:17
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Mechs vs. Minions is back in stock -- if you haven't had a chance to see/play it it's a really solid game and the components are really great. https://na.merch.riotgames.com/en/other/board-games/mechs-v-s-minions-wave-3.html
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May 10, 2018 01:49
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Fat Turkey posted:It really isn't. It totally is. The image in the post even has a side by side comparison. He even has Gerald's loving wolf pendant! But I'm not going to argue with you further because you get really obstinate about poo poo like this.
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May 10, 2018 02:02
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