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GunnerJ posted:Thoughts on The Four Tendencies? I'm having trouble understanding what the article means when it talks about base builders breaking away from activism. How is activism defined as something leftists can and should break from?
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May 14, 2018 19:04
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Dreddout posted:I'm having trouble understanding what the article means when it talks about base builders breaking away from activism. How is activism defined as something leftists can and should break from? Bordiga wrote about "activism" being futile but I can't discern a concrete definition of what he exactly meant by "activism". I'm guessing that these definitions would be similar tho
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May 14, 2018 19:11
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I remember Freire using "activism" to mean a kind of practice without theory, taking action for its own sake without any kind of plan or greater purpose. That might be the same definition they're working from.
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May 14, 2018 19:15
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_b3QOEFYU
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May 14, 2018 19:20
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GunnerJ posted:Thoughts on The Four Tendencies? I don't think the lines are as distinct as the author is implying. On a somewhat related subject: Iv been reading about the history of socialist organization in the United States and I'm amazed the "brocialist" left idea gets any traction when anti-slavery was massively supported by socialists and communists in the united states. The entire history of leftism in the united states seems pretty tied to fighting the oppression of minorities.
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May 14, 2018 19:23
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The Baffler published a pretty good piece about this a few years ago, which speaks to the same distinction in activism vs. organizing:quote:While there are notable exceptions, many strands of contemporary activism risk emphasizing the self over the collective. By contrast, organizing is cooperative by definition: it aims to bring others into the fold, to build and exercise shared power. Organizing, as Smucker smartly defines it, involves turning “a social bloc into a political force.” Today, anyone can be an activist, even someone who operates alone, accountable to no one—for example, relentlessly trying to raise awareness about an important issue. Raising awareness—one of contemporary activism’s preferred aims—can be extremely valuable (at least I hope so, since I have spent so much time trying to do it), but education is not organizing, which involves not just enlightening whoever happens to encounter your message, but also aggregating people around common interests so that they can strategically wield their combined strength. Organizing is long-term and often tedious work that entails creating infrastructure and institutions, finding points of vulnerability and leverage in the situation you want to transform, and convincing atomized individuals to recognize that they are on the same team (and to behave like it).
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May 14, 2018 19:24
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Venom Snake posted:I don't think the lines are as distinct as the author is implying. the brocialist people haven't based their critique in reality, they've just using the weapons they know against a new enemy
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May 14, 2018 19:28
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Venom Snake posted:I don't think the lines are as distinct as the author is implying. It's because the entire line of argument was always dishonest op
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May 14, 2018 19:29
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did you know that both bernie and trump ran against hillary and said that america wasn't already great? therefore, bernie and trump are the same
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May 14, 2018 19:30
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oh i know it's a dishonest attack, but I see leftists getting really anxious/worried about the lack of minorities in leftist orgs in america.
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May 14, 2018 19:32
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Venom Snake posted:oh i know it's a dishonest attack, but I see leftists getting really anxious/worried about the lack of minorities in leftist orgs in america. It's because they're disproportionately white as it stands now. People want to bring in minorities because of the concern over white saviorism, or the worry that we'll just ignore minority needs altogether. It's also a legacy of social democratic programs like those in the New Deal being functionally whites-only for much of their existence, with the attempts to change that getting followed very quickly by them being gutted. You and I know that socdem reforms aren't actually socialist, but it can cause problems when people's exposure to the "Radical Left" doesn't go farther than Bernie Sanders. The history of connections between the left and the struggles for minority rights is intentionally suppressed, but that's a fact we need to acknowledge and work through with our actions now, while avoiding anything that resembles the "a Republican freed the slaves" rhetoric from the right. e: Basically working to improve connections and coordination with minority communities is good, even if "brocialist" rhetoric is dishonest
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May 14, 2018 19:43
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Bernie Sanders has higher favorability with Black people than white people, and women than men. Young Black people also went overwhelmingly for Bernie, Black people went overall for Clinton because old people are a much larger voting bloc than young people.
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May 14, 2018 19:52
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Part of why left orgs aren't as diverse is that they're primarily composed of middle/upper class people, and Black people are disproportionately working class, that being said, the DSA or whatever org is likely to remain pretty white just because that's a reflection of US demographics, 65-70% of the population is white, and I'm sure if you factor for "has the time/resources to engage in organizing" that number is probably even higher.
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May 14, 2018 19:56
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My favourite line of argument is that because black women voted overwhelmingly for Hillary, they all love her and you're racist and sexist if you don't love Mother too. Black women also love Ralph Northam and Doug Jones apparently.
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May 14, 2018 19:57
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Halloween Jack posted:My favourite line of argument is that because black women voted overwhelmingly for Hillary, they all love her and you're racist and sexist if you don't love Mother too. black people also love the crime bill, cops, and entitlement reform
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May 14, 2018 20:07
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Ace of Baes posted:Part of why left orgs aren't as diverse is that they're primarily composed of middle/upper class people, and Black people are disproportionately working class, that being said, the DSA or whatever org is likely to remain pretty white just because that's a reflection of US demographics, 65-70% of the population is white, and I'm sure if you factor for "has the time/resources to engage in organizing" that number is probably even higher. I have trouble buying the "black people don't have time/resources to organize" line, given mass movements like BLM.
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May 14, 2018 20:22
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YES THIS IS BEAUTIFUL
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May 14, 2018 20:22
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Venom Snake posted:On a somewhat related subject: Iv been reading about the history of socialist organization in the United States and I'm amazed the "brocialist" left idea gets any traction when anti-slavery was massively supported by socialists and communists in the united states. The entire history of leftism in the united states seems pretty tied to fighting the oppression of minorities. At the risk of coming across as a conspiracy theorist, I think the media was pretty well salted with articles trying to make the Democratic Party brand fun and hip and label the left as weirdos and creeps. Why else would BuzzFeed publish a poem mocking PissPigGranddad?
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May 14, 2018 20:24
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Halloween Jack posted:It comes down to people with money and a media platform repeating it over and over. At the risk of coming across as a conspiracy theorist, I think the media was pretty well salted with articles trying to make the Democratic Party brand fun and hip and label the left as weirdos and creeps. Why else would BuzzFeed publish a poem mocking PissPigGranddad? I believe it was Tom Perez himself who wanted to start the rumor the Left was full of bros https://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/10/11/labor-secretary-advised-clinton-cast-sanders-candidate-whites-turn-minorities gently caress to Tom
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May 14, 2018 20:25
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GunnerJ posted:Thoughts on The Four Tendencies?
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May 14, 2018 20:28
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there are only 2 tendencies. online and offline.
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May 14, 2018 20:31
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Halloween Jack posted:My favourite line of argument is that because black women voted overwhelmingly for Hillary, they all love her and you're racist and sexist if you don't love Mother too. oh Christ, now you're reminding me of the "America will always be saved by (and therefore should be exclusively run by) black women, because they are living demi-gods who are all better than you just like their qweens Beyonce and Cardi B" articles after the Jones election
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May 14, 2018 20:31
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Coolness Averted posted:a garbage article from someone who wants you to know their brand of thinking (a 4th way if you will...) is better than the rest of the left Yeah no way they have a disagreement with taxonomy or anything
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May 14, 2018 20:32
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Troy Queef posted:oh Christ, now you're reminding me of the "America will always be saved by (and therefore should be exclusively run by) black women, because they are living demi-gods who are all better than you just like their qweens Beyonce and Cardi B" articles after the Jones election But yeah, that media narrative in the aftermath of the Jones vs. Pedophile election was a weird convergence of cynical DNC manipulation and the Terminally Online Woke contingent.
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May 14, 2018 20:41
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Goon Danton posted:I have trouble buying the "black people don't have time/resources to organize" line, given mass movements like BLM. I didn't say that, I said statistically they're less likely to have the same amount of time and resources compared to white people, due to socioeconomic conditions
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May 14, 2018 20:41
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Troy Queef posted:oh Christ, now you're reminding me of the "America will always be saved by (and therefore should be exclusively run by) black women, because they are living demi-gods who are all better than you just like their qweens Beyonce and Cardi B" articles after the Jones election those takes were never about giving black people any real power, or recognition as a part of any political coalition. they were about writing black people a thank-you note for saving "us" (viz. upper-middle-class white people). there was never any attempt to include the magic black people within this "us".
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May 14, 2018 20:46
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Halloween Jack posted:I mean, a government entirely of randomly selected black women would have to be way better than what we've got now. (All I ask is that Oprah and Joy Ann Reid be specifically excluded.) A government entirely of randomly selected people regardless of race would be better than what we have now, the issue with the political process/system is that when it elevates, for example Black women, it elevates those who fit within the predefined parameters of what's acceptable, which is how you get "representation" like Condaleeza Rice or Donna Brasille. Representation in politics doesn't mean anything unless the people doing the representation actually have the interests of the marginalized group in mind, and are able to enact change. The same thing happens in society at large where "Black men who act like white men" or "Gay Black men who act like straight white men" are elevated over Black men or women who refuse to assimilate/adopt the dominant societal norms.
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May 14, 2018 20:46
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Shear Modulus posted:those takes were never about giving black people any real power, or recognition as a part of any political coalition. they were about writing black people a thank-you note for saving "us" (viz. upper-middle-class white people). there was never any attempt to include the magic black people within this "us". Theyre also just not accurate, Black women (and men) voted overwhelming for Jones, but that wasn't any different then any other senate election in Alabama, they fell within normal voting patterns demographically. You can say they "won" the race for him but it doesn't actually mean anything, it also ignores that because Black women make up 6.3% of the population, so the idea that political change can be enacted without a multiracial coalition (including white people) is not realistic, as you cant have a mass movement with a minority of the population.
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May 14, 2018 20:52
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Shear Modulus posted:those takes were never about giving black people any real power, or recognition as a part of any political coalition. they were about writing black people a thank-you note for saving "us" (viz. upper-middle-class white people). there was never any attempt to include the magic black people within this "us". Dogg I don't think anybody ITT thinks DNC propaganda is ever about politically engaging more women of colour, or encouraging more white people to listen to them, much less do it themselves. Halloween Jack has issued a correction as of 20:57 on May 14, 2018 |
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May 14, 2018 20:53
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Syndlig posted:houston training was super awesome. i learned so much stuff there's no way it all stayed in my head, and my notes are basically gibberish to me now haha y’all didn’t even get the good tacos, I’ll set something up next time. but yeah it was a fun weekend R. Guyovich posted:mod-approved derail: where'd you get tacos in houston? i'm a big h-town booster but taco more is the best i've had in the state Tacos Cilantros is the best in town if you want traditional style. they barely speak English so be prepared.
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May 14, 2018 21:14
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minority groups are also often absent from socialist organizing because for the past 100 years the US has brutally repressed any socialist or working class political movement and if you are a person of color, a woman, lgbtq, an immigrant, or part of another oppressed group, even if you agree with the politics generally it's a pretty daunting prospect to embrace a whole other form of oppression on top of what you're already forced to go through
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May 14, 2018 21:30
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yeah, socialism in america especially now is predominantly young white educated men because they’re usually not murdered by the government for talking about class struggle
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May 14, 2018 23:36
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Hi I know AoB is making GBS threads himself right now but for people interested in what PHX DSA is up to: The election is two weeks away. The nomcom (thoroughly B&R now that the one dipshit had to drop due to life) has compromised and allowed online voting for members who can't find a proxy. This is fine, to me, though the voting period is literally a half an hour. However. Good comrades are currently petitioning the mortarboards to allow a split to start a new chapter: Salt River Valley DSA (that's the greater Phoenix metropolitan area). We're trying to use the precedent of SF vs. various Bay DSAs. You can be SRV DSA as long as you're not in another chapter, and we can claim the same zipcodes. We're using a variant of the Unity and Power slate mission statement as ours. It's the first thing I've felt good about in awhile. If it works, we're gonna get right back to St. Mary's packing tons of turnips and its going to rule. Like we used to: https://twitter.com/DSA_Phoenix/status/886345391578300416?s=09 DSA RETROOOOO BRINGIN YA BACK AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLL THE WAY TO 2017
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May 14, 2018 23:44
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Solid Poopsnake posted:The election is two weeks away. The nomcom (thoroughly B&R now that the one dipshit had to drop due to life) has compromised and allowed online voting for members who can't find a proxy. This is fine, to me, though the voting period is literally a half an hour. what the gently caress
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May 14, 2018 23:53
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Solid Poopsnake posted:Hi I know AoB is making GBS threads himself right now but for people interested in what PHX DSA is up to: What went wrong over the past year, in your opinion?
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May 14, 2018 23:53
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Zikan posted:what the gently caress Best we could get from a galaxy brain nomcom. It's garbage. Captain Queernabs posted:What went wrong over the past year, in your opinion? M4A, PhDs, and a cult of personality. It's that easy. E: not the concept of M4A, but the type of people who will use a national initiative to get points with national and check the box on their resume. That person is Benjamin Fong. A careerist who fooled some otherwise good comrades into sectionalism. Solid Poopsnake has issued a correction as of 00:03 on May 15, 2018 |
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May 15, 2018 00:00
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my chapter is literally the most horizontalist in the country where our steering just facilitates campaigns and doesn’t do a single east bay style thing and all of our leftcoms, refoundation people and libsocs accepted a seven day online vote for steering with no complaints lol
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May 15, 2018 00:04
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Splitting a chapter involves dividing up the zip codes allocated to it by national, so you'd need a set of zipcodes your branch would take over from Phoenix dsa, as well as 5 people to chair the oc of your new branch.
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May 15, 2018 00:05
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Ace of Baes posted:Splitting a chapter involves dividing up the zip codes allocated to it by national, so you'd need a set of zipcodes your branch would take over from Phoenix dsa, as well as 5 people to chair the oc of your new branch. We're trying to use the SF model. The Salt River Valley is very vast but we don't want all of it. E: I mean, we do, just not the shitheads in it that are already PHX DSA. So we're trying to share zipcodes like SF/Bay area.
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May 15, 2018 00:06
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Zikan posted:my chapter is literally the most horizontalist in the country where our steering just facilitates campaigns and doesn’t do a single east bay style thing and all of our leftcoms, refoundation people and libsocs accepted a seven day online vote for steering with no complaints lol Yeah, we're hosed. Hence the split.
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May 15, 2018 00:08
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