|
cheetah7071 posted:Can someone who remembers HoME better tell me whether Sauron was always Thu, or if the connection was only made later? Second age Sauron has the same shapeshifting, but doesn't have the connections to wolves and bats. Personally, extrapolating from second and third age Sauron and guessing what he'd have been up to in the first age without reference to what we actually know, I'd have expected him to be Morgoth's engineer or smith, not one of his battle captains. It would have been cool if Sauron had been the one who designed Grond, or maybe even forged the crown that held the silmarils. AFAIR they were always the same entity, with Gorthaur as a sort of transition form between the two names. It is kind of a weird shift in emphasis, though if he made the wolf- and bat-fells Beren and Luthien use you could think of him as a specialist in making magic items that gently caress up the wearers - shape-changing skins in the First Age, pretty pretty ring sets in the Second. loving with people does seem to be his Thing though, considering what he does to Gorlim.
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2018 21:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 12:50 |
|
|
Runcible Cat posted:AFAIR they were always the same entity, with Gorthaur as a sort of transition form between the two names. It is kind of a weird shift in emphasis, though if he made the wolf- and bat-fells Beren and Luthien use you could think of him as a specialist in making magic items that gently caress up the wearers - shape-changing skins in the First Age, pretty pretty ring sets in the Second. cheetah7071 posted:I more meant, when the Akallabeth and LotR were first being written, was the Sauron that appeared there always supposed to be the same as Thu? It sounds like the answer is no for second-age Sauron, but yes for third-age Sauron (who then got equated when work on LotR began?) I was misremembering, the use of the name Sauron predates Lord of the Rings. If you look through the first couple chapters of The Lost Road, it’s clear that Sauron and Thu were the same figure at this stage. The (unless I’m misremembering) first version of the Númenor story, ‘Fall of Númenor I’ refers to him: quote:...Sûr (whom the Gnomes called Thû) came in the likeness of a great bird to Númenor and preached a message of deliverance, and he prophesied the second coming of Morgoth. But Morgoth did not come in person, but only in spirit and as a shadow upon the mind and heart, for the Gods shut him beyond the Walls of the World. But Sûr spake to Angor the king and Istar his queen, and promised them undying life and lordship of the Earth. And they believed him and fell under the shadow, and the greatest part of the people of Númenor followed them. Angor raised a great temple to Morgoth in the midst of the land, and Sûr dwelt there. This story proceeds pretty much how you’d expect, but concludes: quote:But there remains still a legend of Beleriand: for that land in the West of the Old World, although changed and broken, held still in ancient days to the name it had in the days of the Gnomes. And it is said that Amroth was King of Beleriand; and he took counsel with Elrond son of Earendel, and with such of the Elves as remained in the West; and they passed the mountains and came into inner lands far from the sea, and they assailed the fortress of Thû. And Amroth wrestled with Thû and was slain; but Thû was brought to his knees, and his servants were dispelled; and the peoples of Beleriand destroyed his dwellings, and drove him forth, and he fled to a dark forest, and hid himself. And it is said that the war with Thû hastened the fading of the Eldar, for he had power beyond their measure, as Felagund King of Nargothrond had found in the earliest days; and they expended their strength and substance in the assault upon him. And this was the last of the services of the older race to Men, and it is held the last of the deeds of alliance before the fading of the Elves and the estrangement of the Two Kindreds. And here the tale of the ancient world, as the Elves keep it, comes to an end. This at a glance seems like a setup for LOTR, reading Elendil for Amroth and Middle-earth for Beleriand, but it’s actually setup for The Hobbit (Thu is not destroyed but simply relocates to Mirkwood, for there is no One Ring to be taken from him). In the revised version ‘Fall of Númenor II’ the character is instead named Sauron ‘that is in the Gnomish tongue named Thû’, Amroth is now Elendil, Gil-galad ‘the Elf-king who was descended from Fëanor’ is his ally, Sauron dwells in ‘Mordor the Black Country’, his fortress is besieged and conquered by the two kings who then wrestle with him and all three are killed, with Sauron’s spirit hiding itself away to await the events of The Hobbit. Chris’ commentary says this story is the first use of all these names. So by the time of the LOTR and the Akallabeth yes, Thu and the Necromancer and Sauron are definitely all the same guy, chief servant of Morgoth and dark lord of Mordor who led Númenor to its ruin, was defeated by the last alliance of men and elves, and now hides away in Mirkwood while some ill-tempered and incompetent midgets go on a quest away to the north to go rob a big lizard.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2018 21:55
|
|
|
Thanks for the detailed write up
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2018 22:01
|
|
|
https://news.avclub.com/harvey-weinstein-almost-handed-lord-of-the-rings-off-to-1825764536/amp
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2018 17:58
|
|
|
I mean, I'm sure it would have been interesting.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2018 18:43
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure that would never have happened and Weinstein was bluffing.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2018 18:50
|
|
|
Weren't there a few previous attempts at the movies that petered out because the corporate will to make multiple movies wasn't there and early writing made it very clear one movie wouldn't work?
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2018 18:54
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:Weren't there a few previous attempts at the movies that petered out because the corporate will to make multiple movies wasn't there and early writing made it very clear one movie wouldn't work? Forest Ackerman put together a single movie treatment in the late 50s. This is the one that actually got sent to Tolkien, who tore it a new rear end in a top hat in his letter of response. MGM/UA’s take on the story as Beatles vehicle and Boorman and Pallenberg’s 70s-as-gently caress script are also single-film versions. Bakshi wanted to make three movies, but UA bargained him down to two and then killed the project when he made one. I think that reaction is basically what anyone in the world would have expected to get pitching a trilogy of big-budget fantasy films without the enormous success of Star Wars franchise to hold up as an example — and Jackson had to struggle to get it even in the late 90s. It’s in large part due to the success of his movies that such an idea is no longer thought of as inherently poo poo.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2018 20:06
|
|
|
skasion posted:Forest Ackerman put together a single movie treatment in the late 50s. This is the one that actually got sent to Tolkien, who tore it a new rear end in a top hat in his letter of response. MGM/UA’s take on the story as Beatles vehicle and Boorman and Pallenberg’s 70s-as-gently caress script are also single-film versions. Bakshi wanted to make three movies, but UA bargained him down to two and then killed the project when he made one. I think that reaction is basically what anyone in the world would have expected to get pitching a trilogy of big-budget fantasy films without the enormous success of Star Wars franchise to hold up as an example — and Jackson had to struggle to get it even in the late 90s. It’s in large part due to the success of his movies that such an idea is no longer thought of as inherently poo poo. It really is kindof amazing the cultural shift that Jackson managed to accomplish with those films. I remember being the only kid in my grade school class who had even read the Hobbit. I had to drag people to see Fellowship.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2018 20:26
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:It really is kindof amazing the cultural shift that Jackson managed to accomplish with those films. I remember being the only kid in my grade school class who had even read the Hobbit. I had to drag people to see Fellowship. It really is, my dad and i were the only ones i knew who had read the books, and now I can make hobbit jokes and everyone gets it. The movies really are fantastic.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2018 20:31
|
|
|
The impressive thing isn’t that he managed to get people to care about LOTR enough to pay for a ticket, it’s that he managed to get studios to care enough to pay for three movies of it. LOTR was a genuine literary phenomenon in the US in the 60s/70s, in the same way Harry Potter would be in its time. Maybe even more so: fantasy literature market as we know it today is irrevocably shaped by the influence of Tolkien far more profoundly than by HP books. Anyone who read a book in America in aforementioned timeframe would have at least heard of LOTR. It may not have been chic to identify yourself as a fan of it but I question anyone who thinks that Jackson rescued it from the trash can of history or whatever. It was one of the best-selling books of all time decades before it was one of the best-selling movies of all time. What Jackson’s movies did is analogous to what Tolkien’s books did for the market: they proved that their own type of work was marketable, and like works proceeded to become heavily marketed.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2018 20:52
|
|
|
I think around the time the movie trilogy was first released some university in the UK did a survey to find out what people considered to be the best book of the 20th century. There were many worthy contenders but the surveyors were shocked to discover that the UK at large considered The Lord of the Rings to be the best book of the 20th century especially when a group of professors kept saying "But what about Ulysses?" The Lord of the Rings loving rules is what I'm saying
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2018 21:58
|
|
|
HIJK posted:I think around the time the movie trilogy was first released some university in the UK did a survey to find out what people considered to be the best book of the 20th century. There were many worthy contenders but the surveyors were shocked to discover that the UK at large considered The Lord of the Rings to be the best book of the 20th century especially when a group of professors kept saying "But what about Ulysses?" One of the frustrations I had in English classes in college was that the kinds of people who teach English classes care about prose quality almost to the exclusion of the quality of what those words are communicating when evaluating fiction. Lotr's prose is good but not best-in-a-century good. The story and world plausibly are The Silmarillion goes even further down this path imo. 90% of the actual language is somewhere between mediocre and bad (with a few notable exceptions, mostly but not entirely sections that were copy-pasted in from works he wrote later in life) but the things it's communicating are loving brilliant. e: actually I'm gonna walk this back a bit. The Silmarillion has some poorly-written sections but it isn't 90%. It's way more than lotr though. cheetah7071 fucked around with this message at 22:26 on May 4, 2018 |
|
#
?
May 4, 2018 22:17
|
|
|
HIJK posted:I think around the time the movie trilogy was first released some university in the UK did a survey to find out what people considered to be the best book of the 20th century. There were many worthy contenders but the surveyors were shocked to discover that the UK at large considered The Lord of the Rings to be the best book of the 20th century especially when a group of professors kept saying "But what about Ulysses?" Is Ulysses the one by James Joyce that's all in beat poetry and about an Irish guy farting with his wife?
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2018 22:18
|
|
|
Nessus posted:They are quite good books, IMO; and I'm not afraid to say it !! The beat poetry is Finnegan's Wake but Ulysses did include farts.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2018 22:34
|
|
|
HIJK posted:I think around the time the movie trilogy was first released some university in the UK did a survey to find out what people considered to be the best book of the 20th century. There were many worthy contenders but the surveyors were shocked to discover that the UK at large considered The Lord of the Rings to be the best book of the 20th century especially when a group of professors kept saying "But what about Ulysses?" I remember a similar poll. Pratchett wrote about it, once - that the English may nod and agree that Mona Lisa is a great painting, that David is a great sculpture, but dammit LOTR is a worldbeater of a story and they’ll defend it.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2018 22:44
|
|
|
VanSandman posted:I remember a similar poll. Pratchett wrote about it, once - that the English may nod and agree that Mona Lisa is a great painting, that David is a great sculpture, but dammit LOTR is a worldbeater of a story and they’ll defend it. Book intended to be an "English myth" with 4 idealized English protagonists vs. impenetrable prose about Ireland by a fart-obsessed Irishman, hmmm.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2018 23:35
|
|
|
talk about huffing your own farts!
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2018 23:48
|
|
|
Pham Nuwen posted:Book intended to be an "English myth" with 4 idealized English protagonists vs. impenetrable prose about Ireland by a fart-obsessed Irishman, hmmm. Frodo, Sam, Aragorn and Gandalf?
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2018 02:40
|
|
|
I just reread the chapter and I don't think it's possible to read Treebeard's lines without smiling
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2018 07:29
|
|
|
Pham Nuwen posted:Book intended to be an "English myth" with 4 idealized English protagonists vs. impenetrable prose about Ireland by a fart-obsessed Irishman, hmmm.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2018 08:02
|
|
|
Wasn't there an American version of this poll where objectivists pushed Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead really high up the list
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2018 18:38
|
|
|
I think that poll was done shortly after the films had started coming out already. As I remember it the question was "greatest novel of the twentieth century" and LotR is a very good choice for that as the central events of the twentieth century were the rise of technology and the world wars and LotR is a direct response to and refutation of both those things. You could not have a work of fiction set in the 20th that was so perfectly about the 20th I. The same way. Very similar to TH White's Once and Future King in that regard.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2018 19:04
|
|
|
Smoking Crow posted:Wasn't there an American version of this poll where objectivists pushed Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead really high up the list There was a poll from many years ago, maybe 1990s?, that was asking what the most influential book you'd ever read was, what book had the greatest effect on your life. Atlas Shrugged was, I think, a very distant second behind The Bible.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2018 19:23
|
|
|
SHISHKABOB posted:Frodo, Sam, Aragorn and Gandalf? I can't believe I did this to Merry and Pippin.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2018 19:39
|
|
|
SHISHKABOB posted:I can't believe I did this to Merry and Pippin. It was kinda fun imagining what kind of archetypical Brits were supposed to be represented by Aragorn and Gandalf. I mean I assume England is full of King Arthurs and Merlins just running around on the streets all the time but
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2018 20:38
|
|
|
Vavrek posted:There was a poll from many years ago, maybe 1990s?, that was asking what the most influential book you'd ever read was, what book had the greatest effect on your life. Atlas Shrugged was, I think, a very distant second behind The Bible. Atlas Shrugged is probably also kind of true, but not the way they imagine. 
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2018 21:24
|
|
|
Vavrek posted:There was a poll from many years ago, maybe 1990s?, that was asking what the most influential book you'd ever read was, what book had the greatest effect on your life. Atlas Shrugged was, I think, a very distant second behind The Bible. John Rogers posted:There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2018 23:48
|
|
|
Nessus posted:Who was it asking? Because I mean this is absolutely what any Republican candidate for office would say, and I suppose that sarcasm aside, the Bible is in fact tremendously influential on American society... not even in a bad way, or at least entirely in bad ways. Book-of-the-Month Club members. I found a New York Times article about the survey from when it happened, back in 1991: https://www.nytimes.com/1991/11/20/books/book-notes-059091.html The Lord of the Rings comes in at #5.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2018 23:52
|
|
|
Data Graham posted:It was kinda fun imagining what kind of archetypical Brits were supposed to be represented by...Gandalf. https://twitter.com/eliistender10/status/930733905090613248 One does not simply walk into Morden
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2018 00:42
|
|
|
Do Tolkien's drafts that eventually became The Children of Hurin appear anywhere other than Unfinished Tales? In particular, I want to know whether the chapter name of chapter 15, "Nienor in Brethil", and the opening line "But as for Nienor" were JRR's words or Christopher's. Basically, I'm trying to solve the mystery behind this passage: quote:"Is not that a jest?" he [Turin] cried. "O the fair Nienor! So she ran from Doriath to the Dragon, and from the Dragon to me. What a sweet grace of fortune! Brown as a berry she was, dark was her hair; small and slim as an Elf-Child, none could mistake her!" My very first though was that Turin was describing someone other than Niniel, but my first thoughts, his first sister Urwen and Nargothrond's princess Finduilas, are both described as blonde. Niniel herself is never described as far as I can tell. My next thought is that Turin is describing Nienor as he imagined her, never having met her (or so he thought). This is the easiest reconciliation of the text of Children of Hurin. But if "But as for Nienor" was added by Christopher as a bridge to make the text less abrupt, and they aren't JRR's words, then the best explanation I can come up with is that Niniel isn't Nienor, but some other poor amnesiac girl who Glaurung cast a spell on as he lay dying, tricking her into thinking she was Nienor to try to hurt Turin one last time. Alternatively, under the supposition that this tale was composed by some later elvish bard and everything that wasn't directly witnessed is supposition by the storyteller, then nothing from the beginning of "Nienor in Brethil" even "really" happened and again the easiest reading of the text is that Niniel isn't Nienor. e: to clarify, "But as for Nienor" is in Unfinished Tales but both that work and Children of Hurin aim for readability over accuracy, so I'm hoping it's somewhere in HoME too. cheetah7071 fucked around with this message at 04:40 on May 8, 2018 |
|
#
?
May 8, 2018 04:35
|
|
|
It's not quite the same, but 'The Grey Annals' in HOME XI has 'But Nienor ran on into the woods...' at this point in the narrative. It's clear in all versions that Nienor and Niniel are one and the same. At this point Turin is desparately trying to deny the truth, though he knows it in his heart. He's basically giving Mablung a description of someone as different from Niniel as possible, so if he agrees with it then what Brandir told him cannot possibly be true. But Mablung confirms that Nienor is tall, blonde and blue-eyed, and Turin recognises the description of Niniel, so he finally admits the truth, runs away and stabs himself.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2018 10:54
|
|
|
It’s a pity, because after all the tall pale golden/raven-tressed heroines of Ardan song I would love to read about a slight, sprightly nut-brown lady who actually gets away from the dragon.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2018 18:37
|
|
|
Nienor being Niniel was the surface reading going all the way back to Book of Lost Tales so I was mostly just hoping for a literary easter egg more than it being the intended only answer. The fact that the text identifying the two is so sparse gave me hope. Even then we do have a bit where Nienor throws herself naked on an unnamed green mound and then later Turin finds a naked lady on the Haudh-en-Elledh but it'd take a real stretch to try to read a discontinuity there
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2018 18:54
|
|
|
Wrong thread
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 10:57
|
|
|
Word is the Amazon TV series is going to start with young Aragorn for the first season, drawing from the appendices, and have nothing to do with the War of the Ring.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2018 16:00
|
|
|
I'll be in my bunk
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2018 21:33
|
|
|
It still kinda blows my mind that Jackson's ROTK won Academy Awards best picture. I mean I guess there's Braveheart and Gladiator for violent epic film precedent, but those at least can pretend to be 'historical.' ROTK is the first and only fantasy film winner, unless you count The Shape of Water. Speaks to how big a phenomenon the movies were. Adventures of
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2018 02:26
|
|
|
my bony fealty posted:It still kinda blows my mind that Jackson's ROTK won Academy Awards best picture. I mean I guess there's Braveheart and Gladiator for violent epic film precedent, but those at least can pretend to be 'historical.' ROTK is the first and only fantasy film winner, unless you count The Shape of Water. Speaks to how big a phenomenon the movies were. It was robbed of Best Film and Best Director the first two years, honestly. Even at the time I remember critics and announcers saying "of course everyone knows Fellowship should win this year, but it won't." What blows my mind is that it's been 18 years and we're still talking about the films and they're still generating new memes as if they came out recently.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2018 04:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 12:50 |
|
|
Rotk Oscar was definitely a narrative award for the whole trilogy especially the Fellowship which was recognized as being a masterpiece only a little after the year it was released
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2018 04:08
|
|
