|
sebmojo posted:Rolemaster owns fyi and is still one of the best and cleanest combat/skills engines ever made. And I've got 4 books consisting of hundreds of pages of critical hit tables to prove it
|
#
?
May 15, 2018 08:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 13:32 |
|
|
Azhais posted:And I've got 4 books consisting of hundreds of pages of critical hit tables to prove it  
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2018 08:25
|
|
|
Does not sound like my kind of game. I like Dungeon World, but I hear a lot about how it’s not a very good PbtA game. Is that just because of its relation/similarity to DnD?
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 13:07
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:I like Dungeon World, but I hear a lot about how it’s not a very good PbtA game. Is that just because of its relation/similarity to DnD? As a way to introduce veteran D&D players to PbtA gaming, though, it's pretty decent at what it does; it's just familiar enough to keep the transition from being too jarring, but fiction-based enough that the core concepts of PbtA games come through pretty well. Or at least it is in the hands of a decent GM. When DW falls into the hands of some jerkwad D&D GM who thinks, "yeah, yeah, yeah, I already know how to run RPGs, and this one's no different," the results are almost universally disastrous.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 15:54
|
|
|
Ilor posted:As a way to introduce veteran D&D players to PbtA gaming, though, it's pretty decent at what it does; it's just familiar enough to keep the transition from being too jarring, but fiction-based enough that the core concepts of PbtA games come through pretty well. Or at least it is in the hands of a decent GM. When DW falls into the hands of some jerkwad D&D GM who thinks, "yeah, yeah, yeah, I already know how to run RPGs, and this one's no different," the results are almost universally disastrous. This is pretty much the truth: A good GM can make a lovely system at least sing a tune, but a bad GM will make even the best game terrible with their GMPC "The Wizzard". Something else I'd recommend for all GMs would be to prep up a CATS document for your game before you run it. It's a little prep tool from the 200 word RPG contest a few years back, but having that at the table for everyone to read through and agree on has been pretty great, and it lets you avoid any "i thought this would have more combat" or "i wanna rp kissing trees" troubles by ensuring everyone is onboard at the beginning. The cheat sheet version: https://www.tinyurl.com/RPG-CATS-cs-3x5
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 16:12
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:Does not sound like my kind of game. I haven’t played a lot of DW but I was always put off by how awkward it is to drop HP into PBTA whole cloth.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 16:50
|
|
|
What is the X-card?
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 17:10
|
|
|
Angrymog posted:What is the X-card? http://tinyurl.com/x-card-rpg I've heard mixed reviews about how useful it is.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 17:25
|
|
|
Strike also asks the participants to declare an intent before combat begins, and then after combat you count up your fuckups (strikes) to calculate whether everybody achieved their intent or not. Then you'll pass out conditions like Winded, Injured, Poisoned, Angry et al to represent your dwindling resources and vigor in ongoing combats (your hp at the start of combats will always be the same, and it is largely these conditions which represent narrative attrition throughout an adventure)
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 18:38
|
|
|
Leraika posted:http://tinyurl.com/x-card-rpg
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 18:58
|
|
|
Ignite Memories posted:Strike also asks the participants to declare an intent before combat begins, and then after combat you count up your fuckups (strikes) to calculate whether everybody achieved their intent or not. Then you'll pass out conditions like Winded, Injured, Poisoned, Angry et al to represent your dwindling resources and vigor in ongoing combats (your hp at the start of combats will always be the same, and it is largely these conditions which represent narrative attrition throughout an adventure) holy poo poo this sounds like a massively cool idea. Sounds like I need to check out Strike
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 19:01
|
|
|
I’ll admit that HP is a little strange, and I haven’t listened to a lot of Dungeon World actual plays (they tend to be kinda rambly except for Bluejay’s oneshot) or run a session yet. I like how Blades in the Dark does it, where it’s a resource to be traded in exchange for efficacy and you can only do it so many times before getting irreversible consequences for it.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 19:27
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:I’ll admit that HP is a little strange, and I haven’t listened to a lot of Dungeon World actual plays (they tend to be kinda rambly except for Bluejay’s oneshot) or run a session yet. I like how Blades in the Dark does it, where it’s a resource to be traded in exchange for efficacy and you can only do it so many times before getting irreversible consequences for it.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2018 22:32
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:Does not sound like my kind of game. Very few PbtA successors actually are - Monsterhearts pulls it off pretty well, I think. The issue is that the actual Apocalypse World book, original or 2E, pick up 2E if you can, does an amazing job of walking you through how to run the game. What the moves are, when they come into play, why a player and the MC might disagree about what move is happening and what to do then, that kind of thing. And all of that, to one degree or another, gets internalized by the authors of successor books, so that it might not actually come out on the page when it's time to proof the final copy. Dungeon World just got popular so a lot of people are coming into it as a first step, and the book is honestly kind of incomplete without Apocalypse World backing it up.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 14:10
|
|
|
Maybe I should pick up AW 2E. :o
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 14:11
|
|
|
I've got an adventure today that I didn't plan much for, and a lot of irl work to do in the meantime. I figured I might trawl the thread for some twist/conflict ideas. My setting info is posted over in the catpiss thread, but the short version is that the players are fantasy caterers. They've a wide variety of skills, and the people who happen to be showing up today have sets of skills that suggest I should make today's order a Charcuterie table. I figure some vineyard nearby is holding a garden party/tasting, and they hire the caterers to provide meats/cheeses/crackers and whatnot. From there, I figure I could get a good round of linked skill checks together to assemble the food, followed by delivery (I can put some sort of wild monster fight in between them and the vineyard), and then the party. What I don't have yet is a good set of ideas for interesting events or challenges to be occurring at this garden party/wine tasting type deal. Another combat might be possible, depending on time, but i think a social encounter or team skill challenge would probably be more interesting. Any ideas for challenges/twists/intrigue?
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 14:45
|
|
|
Two gentlemen have a dispute which they plan to settle with a highly visible duel at the party. Make sure the food doesn't get ruined when their gentlemen's spat turns into a degrading brawl. The foppish nobles hosting the event didn't listen to their gardeners and are holding their party during peak bloodlouse season. The scent of charcuterie drives them into a mating frenzy. A magician's endless fountain charm hosed up and has created ankle deep mud at the refreshment table. Magical allergens in the food. Come up with a hypoallergenic backup plan on the fly. The wretchedly spoiled son of the family hates the braising on some of the meat and demands it be "re-colored." No that doesn't make any sense but what the gently caress can you do? The family pet loves to eat and slipped his restraints.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 15:40
|
|
|
One of the nobles has gotten fantastically drunk, and loudly mistakes one of the party for an ex-lover. One of the nobles really is a party member's ex-lover. The wizard they hired to do entertainment has skipped town with an adventuring party, and the host offers the party a big bonus if they can add a floor show to the catering.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 15:53
|
|
|
Two gentlewomen are having a spat and they're trying to solve it by each having the catering done for this party be absolutely to their specifications and not the other lady's. future idea: Bridal reception feat. Actual Bridezilla.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 15:54
|
|
|
Leraika posted:Two gentlewomen are having a spat and they're trying to solve it by each having the catering done for this party be absolutely to their specifications and not the other lady's. Wedding of a sorceress with (unannounced) red dragon heritage. Everything's going fine until her great-grandfather arrives fashionably late.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 16:00
|
|
|
Basically every customer service nightmare but with a fantastic twist is what these characters should expect to face. One of the guests is the target of an assassination / curse attempt and through a comedy of errors the caterers are the ones who need to foil it. A nearby folk hero is making a surprise guest appearance as a PR stunt, which immediately creates a shitload more mouths to feed. The anti-hex wards placed around the estate instantly vaporizes certain curse reagents, one of which is a spice the party used in their platter. The prismatic comet is passing by the planet at the most inopportune moment and its wild magic has caused all inanimate objects to come to life. The food is now alive. A "meat is murder" demonstration is hell bent on ruining the event.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 16:02
|
|
|
One of the guests is a Disney like princess with the favor of all woodland creatures and just doesn't understand why she shouldn't be bringing all her little mice friends to enjoy this fine selection of cheeses. Make one of the mice like Ratatouille for extra comedy.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 16:04
|
|
|
And in the middle of whatever clusterfuck you chose, one of the wealthiest attendees obliviously tries to book them for a future gig.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 16:06
|
|
|
Keeshhound posted:One of the nobles has gotten fantastically drunk, and loudly mistakes one of the party for an ex-lover. Even worse, one of the noblewomen is pregnant and has mistaken one of the party members for the man responsible. She's not very happy about it. Glukeose posted:Two gentlemen have a dispute which they plan to settle with a highly visible duel at the party. Make sure the food doesn't get ruined when their gentlemen's spat turns into a degrading brawl. Going off the previous one, one of the gentlemen has mistaken a caterer for the opposing gentleman with whom he has a duel scheduled and begins trying to drag him out to the garden for their honorable combat. Any insistence that he's "just a caterer, sir" get waved off as the gentleman trying to disguise himself to avoid the duel.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 16:12
|
|
|
One of the ladies outside has lost her invitation, and pleads with the caterers as they enter to try and sneak her in. It's up to you whether she legitimately lost her invitation (and thus rewards them handsomely if they help her) or if she's there for more nefarious purposes, like a cat burglar planning to rob the joint or even an assassin. As a prank, someone drugs the vineyard owner's drink with a magical aphrodisiac. It unfortunately works too well and he also begins attempting to flirt with inanimate objects, such as potted plants and the food. Someone rigged a room in the kitchen with a crossbow trap, which shoots and kills someone important as they walk inside. The caterers are implicated and forced to solve the mystery to clear their names.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 16:25
|
|
|
Keeshhound posted:And in the middle of whatever clusterfuck you chose, one of the wealthiest attendees obliviously tries to book them for a future gig. Don't make it oblivious, make it conditional that they promise to deliver this exact level of competent dysfunction because that rear end in a top hat at the Rotary club or whatever who is running an event needs to be taken down a peg and the nobleman is in charge of the catering. Then on their next mission have nothing go wrong unless they make it go wrong with the guy who hired them becoming increasingly distressed at how smoothly things are going.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 16:26
|
|
|
Dameius posted:Don't make it oblivious, make it conditional that they promise to deliver this exact level of competent dysfunction because that rear end in a top hat at the Rotary club or whatever who is running an event needs to be taken down a peg and the nobleman is in charge of the catering. Make it seem like he's oblivious, and then spring this twist on them once things start going well.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 16:39
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:Maybe I should pick up AW 2E. :o The GMing advice is mostly similar, but second edition adds more moves for combat, mad max vehicle combat, having to spend money to survive and clearer information on what happens when people are deprived of needs.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 16:43
|
|
|
Apologies if this isn't the right place to ask, but does anyone have any experience running Chronica Feudalis? I've had it for a while without ever using it, and the D&D campaign I'm in (which I'm enjoying) is also making me think it over again. e: I suppose I'm asking if you found the system was fun to play and if your players picked up on the mechanics relatively quickly.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 17:32
|
|
|
Glazius posted:The issue is that the actual Apocalypse World book, original or 2E, pick up 2E if you can, does an amazing job of walking you through how to run the game. What the moves are, when they come into play, why a player and the MC might disagree about what move is happening and what to do then, that kind of thing. And all of that, to one degree or another, gets internalized by the authors of successor books, so that it might not actually come out on the page when it's time to proof the final copy. I always recommend that people interested in PbtA games get and (most importantly) carefully read Apocalypse World first. There is so much good stuff in there about how and why the game is structured the way it is, what the MC Agenda, Principles, and Moves actually look like in play, and how the moves and the fiction interact that very rarely get carried over into the texts of PbtA successors. If you've played AW, moving to other PbtA games is relatively straightforward, but if you haven't, there can be a lot of assumed knowledge that's not adequately (IMO) conveyed.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 17:56
|
|
|
Would that make it a problem if I run a PbtA game for people new to TTRPGs and who haven’t read the AW rules?
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 18:09
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:Would that make it a problem if I run a PbtA game for people new to TTRPGs and who haven’t read the AW rules? If you're running it and feel comfortable in explaining the rules then yeah, you're fine. PbtA really requires the DM to be an expert in the system but doesn't ask too much of the players. They tell you what you want to do and you give the moves for it.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 18:27
|
|
|
Hrmmm, I guess that’s fine. Considering running a DW oneshot sometime for a couple friends, and I might bring in someone with DW experience to bounce off of as I DM.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 19:11
|
|
|
Yeah, the irony is that PbtA games are fantastic for people new to TTRPGs because the player-facing rules are so minimalist. Newbies without baggage from other systems fundamentally grasp the idea of "just tell me what your character is doing" when playing games of make-believe. But it is incumbent on the MC to examine that player action to see if any moves are triggered and call for the appropriate dice roll. It's actually people who come to PbtA games from other systems who sit there looking at their character sheets trying to puzzle out "which move to pick." That's where you tend to hear things like, "I totally 'go aggro' on that guy!" to which a good MC will generally reply, "Great! What does that look like? How are you threatening him?" in order to ground it in the fiction. The fundamental AW rule of "to do it, do it" is key, but doesn't necessarily come naturally to people conditioned to say, "I roll to hit!"
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 19:54
|
|
|
Glazius posted:Dungeon World just got popular so a lot of people are coming into it as a first step, and the book is honestly kind of incomplete without Apocalypse World backing it up. There's unfortunately a lot of cargo cult design in PbtA, something that's starting to change. It bothers me less than it does with other games, because a so-so PbtA hack is still usually a playable and enjoyable game, and it does more to teach designers as they work through it. Forged in Darkness seems to be going the same way.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 20:36
|
|
|
I would just like to actually wrangle enough people together to attempt a DW oneshot, or start a Blades campaign.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 21:37
|
|
|
On the topic of Blades in the Dark: We've been playing this game for a while now, and have been having a great time with it. For this campaign, fellow goon BlackIronHeart has taken a turn GMing and is knocking it out of the park. I've been having an obscene, nay, borderline criminal amount of fun playing a Leech in a gang of weird Shadows ("The Dunslough Cartographic Society," of course). Some observations on the system: First, there are some things that the game does brilliantly. The gear system in particular is amazing. You have a certain number of slots (decided before you attempt your score) for gear, but you don't actually decide what you're bringing until the moment you actually use it. Need to scale a wall to make a quick get-away? Check off the appropriate boxes for "climbing gear" and you have it! I mean, why wouldn't you have brought along climbing gear if this sort of getaway was a possibility, am I right? At one point we needed to zip-line between buildings to make an escape; I checked off "an unusual weapon" (a two-slot bit of gear) and produced a grapple gun. Huzzah! Where had I been carrying that the whole time? Why, in my trousers, of course! Similarly, the fact that "planning" a score is simply a matter of picking a starting point and jumping straight into the action is fantastic. I GMed Shadowrun for years, and had players who (if given enough time) would gladly spend the entire session planning and arguing about every possible contingency, no matter how unlikely. BitD gets around this by not having a plan at all. And if some contingency comes up that you need to handle, you just do a flash-back to determine how you planned to overcome that complication. Easy-peasy. And most importantly, it keeps the action moving. The breakdown of the game into "score" and "downtime" (with different mechanics for each) is similarly cool. Finally, the fact that your gang is a character all its own (with abilities it confers on its members, turf and claims, and an "upgrade" path) is a stroke of genius. That said, I've finally put my finger on something that bugs me a little bit about the system, which is that it is not as tightly bound to the in-game fiction as Apocalypse World. Or put a different way, the mechanics are more "visible," for lack of a better term. There's still the rule of "to do it, do it," but because BitD has both degree of difficulty and level of effect in its dice-mechanics, there's always this weird little hiccup in game-play where we take a moment to establish what the difficulty and anticipated level of effect are for any given roll. The situation becomes further exacerbated, because you can a) trade position-for-effect, and b) get rewarded with XP by making rolls from a "desperate" starting position. And to be clear, the number of dice you roll or the result needed to achieve a desired outcome don't change, but starting position dictates how dire the consequences are, and effect dictates, well, how effective a success is. Similarly, the "Devil's Bargain" is a double-edged sword. It's a guaranteed complication that (if taken) will give you an extra die for your roll. This is devious and awesome, and asking "so what's my Devil's Bargain here?" is perhaps one of the most consistently hilarious bits in BitD - but at the same time, it brings game-play to a halt while the GM thinks up an appropriate complication. This pause is usually very brief, but combined with establishing position/effect (and the subsequent negotiation thereof if a player is fishing for better effect and/or more XP) it is noticeable. And finally, the system for down-time activities is great from a character advancement/story progression point of view, but for the most part it is strictly mechanical; you pick from a list of several activities which have known effects, dice are rolled for those activities as necessary, and you move on. I'm torn here, because I think that this too has elements of brilliance. But the jump from the "in the fiction" play of the score itself to the "purely mechanical" play of downtime is pretty jarring. But one of the strengths of downtime is that it's quick and to the point, so I'm not sure what the fix is here. I contrast this sort of thing with AW's principle of "make your move, but never speak it's name" here. In AW, the MC is actively engaged in the obfuscation of what's happening in the game's mechanics (i.e. the moves the MC is making and why), and is going out of their way to couch their contribution to the game almost entirely in the fiction. Even when the MC is invoking the mechanics, it's usually because they have deemed that a move has triggered and the only nod to it is usually something along the lines of, "Awesome! roll+Cool!" or whatever. In BitD, the clarity needed when establishing position/effect alone brings the game's crunch to the fore (however briefly) in a much more concrete way. So while I find BitD to be incredibly engaging in actual game play, I also find it to be less immersive than AW, which I did not expect.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2018 22:32
|
|
|
Ilor posted:First, there are some things that the game does brilliantly. The gear system in particular is amazing. You have a certain number of slots (decided before you attempt your score) for gear, but you don't actually decide what you're bringing until the moment you actually use it. Need to scale a wall to make a quick get-away? Check off the appropriate boxes for "climbing gear" and you have it! I mean, why wouldn't you have brought along climbing gear if this sort of getaway was a possibility, am I right? At one point we needed to zip-line between buildings to make an escape; I checked off "an unusual weapon" (a two-slot bit of gear) and produced a grapple gun. Huzzah! Where had I been carrying that the whole time? Why, in my trousers, of course! I’m actually a bit worried about this. I feel like flashing back in the middle of the action is too “stuttery”, almost. It seems fine if it’s just “oh I have this now” but stopping in the middle of the action to describe how you convinced the guard to patrol another area that day sounds annoying. quote:That said, I've finally put my finger on something that bugs me a little bit about the system, which is that it is not as tightly bound to the in-game fiction as Apocalypse World. Or put a different way, the mechanics are more "visible," for lack of a better term. There's still the rule of "to do it, do it," but because BitD has both degree of difficulty and level of effect in its dice-mechanics, there's always this weird little hiccup in game-play where we take a moment to establish what the difficulty and anticipated level of effect are for any given roll. The situation becomes further exacerbated, because you can a) trade position-for-effect, and b) get rewarded with XP by making rolls from a "desperate" starting position. And to be clear, the number of dice you roll or the result needed to achieve a desired outcome don't change, but starting position dictates how dire the consequences are, and effect dictates, well, how effective a success is. Yeah, my impression of Blades is that it’s well-designed and robust, but very stop and go. I find it hard to listen to Blades actual plays because gameplay seems so choppy. quote:And finally, the system for down-time activities is great from a character advancement/story progression point of view, but for the most part it is strictly mechanical; you pick from a list of several activities which have known effects, dice are rolled for those activities as necessary, and you move on. I'm torn here, because I think that this too has elements of brilliance. But the jump from the "in the fiction" play of the score itself to the "purely mechanical" play of downtime is pretty jarring. But one of the strengths of downtime is that it's quick and to the point, so I'm not sure what the fix is here. There’s no reason you can’t roleplay that part out, if you’ve already gotten a forgone conclusion. Maybe treat it like an extended answer to “how do you want to do this”? quote:I contrast this sort of thing with AW's principle of "make your move, but never speak it's name" here. In AW, the MC is actively engaged in the obfuscation of what's happening in the game's mechanics (i.e. the moves the MC is making and why), and is going out of their way to couch their contribution to the game almost entirely in the fiction. Even when the MC is invoking the mechanics, it's usually because they have deemed that a move has triggered and the only nod to it is usually something along the lines of, "Awesome! roll+Cool!" or whatever. In BitD, the clarity needed when establishing position/effect alone brings the game's crunch to the fore (however briefly) in a much more concrete way. I’m not sure I like the “player gets to pick which score to use” thing, either. I think a big reason it doesn’t seem as immersive as it could be is due to the stop and go nature I mentioned before. I still really wanna play Blades, though.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2018 00:05
|
|
|
Don't get me wrong, it's a great game and we're really enjoying it. But it has some hiccups, and just generally delivers a slightly different experience than a more fiction-focused game like AW. And no, there's nothing stopping you from RP during down-time, but if and when it happens it's almost universally because something unfortunate is happening to you (e.g. the results of an Entanglement roll). Worse, if anything bad happens to your character during downtime, you often don't get a chance to ameliorate its effects before you have to pull another score.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2018 00:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 13:32 |
|
|
Pollyanna posted:I’m not sure I like the “player gets to pick which score to use” thing, either. The player picks the score to use, but the DM decides how effective that is. I want to tackle a guy to the ground and use +Athletics, cool, diminished effect because running into a guy at full speed isn't as good as if you used +Brawling. You also have the right to just go "yes, you have used +Handsome to help drive your car in this chase, that has zero effect, who's next?"
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2018 02:49
|
|
