|
If you’re going to do the adventures of Aragorn, you kind of miss a lot of the innately good framing and stakes-raising that Fellowship has going for it as it builds to Rivendell.
|
#
?
May 20, 2018 04:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 14:40 |
|
|
We already had a visual exploration of pre trilogy middle earth with the hobbit. It felt like they were trying to sell warhammer miniatures or something  Here comes the dwarf king (150 pts) on his dire boar chariot (+50pts)
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2018 09:51
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:It was robbed of Best Film and Best Director the first two years, honestly. Even at the time I remember critics and announcers saying "of course everyone knows Fellowship should win this year, but it won't." I remember thinking after the first film that it should have gotten Best Film, but that it wouldn't because there is no way they'd give Best Film three years in a row. They basically treated it as one big film released over three years. I also remember thinking that between Fellowship and the Matrix, the days of being impressed by special effects was over.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2018 13:22
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:It was robbed of Best Film and Best Director the first two years, honestly No director who spends half an hour establishing that a character's defining trait is that he is totally un-hasty and slow and considered and has never in his incredibly long life taken a decision without it first needing hours or days of pondering and consultation, and then has him reverse himself in about five seconds, without any comment or any consequences for his delay, deserves to win any awards for anything except "Longest Time Sat In Stocks While Pelted With Rotten Vegetables" quote:What blows my mind is that it's been 18 years and we're still talking about the films and they're still generating new memes as if they came out recently. It was a phenomenon for 50 years before the films, why is it surprising that it's carried on as before? VanSandman posted:If you're going to do the adventures of Aragorn, you kind of miss a lot of the innately good framing and stakes-raising that Fellowship has going for it as it builds to Rivendell. Who's this "Aragorn"? These are the adventures of Estel and Thorongil!
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 14:05
|
|
|
The PJ movies were good at identifying the weak points of the books (e.g. everything goes right for merry and pippin in TT once they meet Treebeard, with no dramatic tension) but their solutions usually sucked
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 14:27
|
|
|
Trin Tragula posted:No director who spends half an hour establishing that a character's defining trait is that he is totally un-hasty and slow and considered and has never in his incredibly long life taken a decision without it first needing hours or days of pondering and consultation, and then has him reverse himself in about five seconds, without any comment or any consequences for his delay, deserves to win any awards for anything except "Longest Time Sat In Stocks While Pelted With Rotten Vegetables" The winner of the Academy Award for Best Director in 2003 was . . . Roman Polanski. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/75th_Academy_Awards Jackson Wuz Robbed That said, I'll accept a galaxy-brain answer that Fellowship was the best film in the trilogy and the one that should have won all the awards, not RotK, which had too much singing Aragorn Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 14:43 on May 21, 2018 |
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 14:33
|
|
|
I liked the movies but the book autist in me still feels like a lot about them is nothing like the books were and that makes me sad. Things like Gimli being a joke, Legolas skate boarding, Elrond being a severe dude without the kind undertones in the book, the lack of wonder/mystery as compared to the books...there's a lot about the movies that bother me. They did a good job overall though and hit a few home runs. The Two Towers is the best one. They really nailed Rohan/Isengard though I didn't like their Treebeard. The books are way better but I feel that way about most adaptations so that's not necessarily a failing of Jackson.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 16:37
|
|
|
My dumb complaint about the movies is that NZ really limited their ability to look like they should have, landscape-wise The Misty Mountains should have been more a dramatic mountain range like the east side of the Sierra Nevada Anduin should have been, like, Mississippi-wide The Shire should have looked a lot more pastoral Rohan should have been a soft horse-friendly grassland, not a bunch of hoof-breaking rocks Weathertop should have been something you could see from a long way off—basically all the prominent landmarks needed to have been easier to identify in an establishing shot, and tell the story of how the plot is going to relate to them in the coming few scenes Oh yeah, and the Pelennor Fields should have had a lot more oasts and garners
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 16:50
|
|
|
Two Towers is so sluggish. I can understand why they wanted the two storylines to run parallel and not in sequence like the book, but the result is just awful, especially because they cut out the end of each one and jammed it into the next movie. In one case they just cut it altogether and did a crap version of it for the next movie’s extended edit! The whole Edoras->Helm’s Deep added sequence drags on for an hour, adds nothing. The Ithilien sequence is just stupid, it makes every single character involved in it look like an utter moron, the ending of it unravels Gandalf’s plan entirely and there’s no reason why the rest of the plot should work after it. Honorable mention to Faramir busting out some gratuitous Bush era prisoner torture hard on the heels of wondering whether evil people are really evil all the way down. Jackson’s ents are boring and the cgi for them is mediocre by the trilogy’s standards. Even the battle of Helm’s Deep which is really well done from a technical point of view has dumb poo poo like suddenly 1000 elf soldiers teleporting in to
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 17:01
|
|
|
Oh also, while we’re doing movie chat: I was half watching Fellowship on tv yesterday and I noticed there’s a blond elf hanging around in the last alliance who isn’t wearing a helmet. Do any of the commentaries or anything say who that is that supposed to be? It’s really eye-catching in the couple of shots he’s in and failure to wear proper PPE is a protagonist trait of course, so I can’t imagine it was accidental.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 17:33
|
|
|
skasion posted:Two Towers is so sluggish. I can understand why they wanted the two storylines to run parallel and not in sequence like the book, but the result is just awful, especially because they cut out the end of each one and jammed it into the next movie. In one case they just cut it altogether and did a crap version of it for the next movie’s extended edit! The whole Edoras->Helm’s Deep added sequence drags on for an hour, adds nothing. The Ithilien sequence is just stupid, it makes every single character involved in it look like an utter moron, the ending of it unravels Gandalf’s plan entirely and there’s no reason why the rest of the plot should work after it. Honorable mention to Faramir busting out some gratuitous Bush era prisoner torture hard on the heels of wondering whether evil people are really evil all the way down. Jackson’s ents are boring and the cgi for them is mediocre by the trilogy’s standards. Even the battle of Helm’s Deep which is really well done from a technical point of view has dumb poo poo like suddenly 1000 elf soldiers teleporting in to Faramir beating the poo poo out of Gollum is such an egregious rape of his character that I laugh out loud every time I see that scene. I dunno though nothing TTT does wrong even comes close though to their destruction of Denethor. The scene where he's eating tomatoes in a disgusting way is so dumb and nothing at all like book Denethor. They made him a buffoon when he's the closest rival to Gandalf's intelligence in the book that isn't Galadriel/Elrond/Saruman/Sauron. He's a really formidable person and the movie just shits all over that. And I think my memory might be wrong but doesn't Gandalf hit him in the head with his staff at some point when Denethor is freaking out? I don't remember that nonsense in the books but it's been a while since I've read them. I probably will soon actually since it's been a few years.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 17:53
|
|
|
Ginette Reno posted:Faramir beating the poo poo out of Gollum is such an egregious rape of his character that I laugh out loud every time I see that scene. Yeah Denethor is just a crazy freakin out fool of a steward in the movie and he basically shits himself when he sees the army of Morgul at his door. Then Ian McKellen bonks him around a bit while doing his favorite Gandalf expression of dog-poop-on-shoe contempt. ROTK is still a dumb, reductive movie but it manages the plot structure much better than TTT — if only by pulling a bunch of material out of another book.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 18:03
|
|
|
I agree that movie Denethor is a huge departure but I actually am okay with it. I feel like Jackson was worried about having too many Strong Noble Bearded Men in positions of power if he kept Faramir and Denethor true to the book; in a visual medium he wanted to differentiate them with a variety of flaws of character. Faramir I think was a sucky move for a lot of reasons (oh so instead of Good Brother/Bad Brother, now we have evidence that all of Gondor's nobility is irredeemably trash); but making Denethor into this repugnant admixture of noble and craven, dignified and disgusting, commanding and buffoonish, was kind of a masterstroke. Plus the tomato eating scene against Pippin's song and the distant battle was fuckin artistic. I love it
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 18:06
|
|
|
I never really got any impression from Denethor while reading RotK that he was anything more than an obstructive nuisance, so I didn't really see much issue with him in the movie
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 18:13
|
|
|
Movie Denethor is a pretty good self insert of Peter Jackson. Fat, sometimes right on the money with what he's doing but more often not, and he manages to screw things up despite having access to others (in this case, the books) giving him the correct way to do things.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 18:14
|
|
|
Tolkien’s Denethor is a deeply tragic figure who is doing his best to prop up a kingdom on the edge of annihilation. The narrative’s essential sympathy for his doomed attempt to maintain his and his nation’s pride and dignity in an impossible plight is probably the defining characteristic of how it approaches him. Everything is being stripped away from him and our heroes and villains both promise to strip away even more. When he eventually gives in to suicidal despair, we are supposed to be sad because he was a great man despite his flaws. Jackson’s Denethor is an old meanie who does mean things because he’s mean. When he gives into suicidal despair, we are supposed to laugh at him getting bonked in the face.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 18:31
|
|
|
Faramir's stuff in the book is boring. Giving him an arc where he rejects the ring at the end at least means something happens at all during it other than Tolkien masturbating over how good and noble Faramir is. I would have supported the movies vastly reducing his role. Too bad what they did instead was irredeemably stupid. Treebeard and Bombadil have basically the same problem. I enjoy reading Treebeard though so I don't mind it there.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 18:35
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:Faramir's stuff in the book is boring. Giving him an arc where he rejects the ring at the end at least means something happens at all during it other than Tolkien masturbating over how good and noble Faramir is. I would have supported the movies vastly reducing his role. Too bad what they did instead was irredeemably stupid. I dunno if the solution to "Treebeard being boring in the books" (which I disagree with, but whatever) is to make him a moron in the movies who only fights Isengard because he gets tricked by Merry and Pippin. It's so much more powerful a moment in the books when the Ents are like yeah we're gonna go and try to stop Saruman even though we're likely gonna die doing so. And we're gonna do it because it's the right thing to do. Also the whole Entmoot in the books is rad with the different Ents talking tree gibberish to each other and Merry and Pipping not knowing what the gently caress. The movies take a lot of the sense of mystery and wonder out of the LOTR universe with decisions like that.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 18:42
|
|
|
Yeah the ents ruled despite the lack of dramatic tension and the movies made them much worse. I was complaining about Faramir, in both books and movies but for different reasons
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 18:44
|
|
|
skasion posted:Tolkien’s Denethor is a deeply tragic figure who is doing his best to prop up a kingdom on the edge of annihilation. The narrative’s essential sympathy for his doomed attempt to maintain his and his nation’s pride and dignity in an impossible plight is probably the defining characteristic of how it approaches him. Everything is being stripped away from him and our heroes and villains both promise to strip away even more. When he eventually gives in to suicidal despair, we are supposed to be sad because he was a great man despite his flaws. Jackson’s Denethor is an old meanie who does mean things because he’s mean. When he gives into suicidal despair, we are supposed to laugh at him getting bonked in the face. It would have helped if the book showed him doing any great things instead of just butting heads with Gandalf then.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 18:59
|
|
|
Counter-point: Denethor's tomato scene owned
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 18:59
|
|
|
Y'all are making the mistake of comparing the movies against the books and not against, like, every other fantasy film ever made except the rankin-bass Hobbit
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 19:03
|
|
|
I think the main problem with the book material re: Faramir and Denethor and the Ents is that there's very little in the way of conflict. It's understandable that PJ looked at it and went "this is unfilmable, this is just a lot of tragic figures being noble and not setting up any kind of conflict or character development." It would be hard to put that in a movie because frankly it's too subtle for cinema. I can't think of a single movie from the past that pulled off a similar kind of scene. That doesn't make their decisions necessarily correct but it is understandable why they felt like they had to punch it up. You see the same thing with the Rohirrim and Helm's Deep, Movie Theoden is a lot more jaded and bitter than Book Theoden but Movie Theoden having that conflict and completing a character arc of recovering his nobility after falling for Saruman's lies ended up being really noble and beautiful particularly since he was basically saved by his niece, and it was a lot more cinematic then the way that Book Theoden handled everything.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 19:07
|
|
|
webmeister posted:Counter-point: Denethor's tomato scene owned https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac4I2DXxaG4
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 19:10
|
|
|
webmeister posted:Counter-point: Denethor's tomato scene owned Especially because it gave us this moment of beauty from Legends of Tomorrow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sMAKnG2sEM
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 20:38
|
|
|
I would like to see Give us the visual Bombadil we all want, and need Throw 'canon' out the window
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 21:55
|
|
|
All they've actually confirmed is that season one will follow Aragorn so it's plausible each season will tackle a different section of the appendices. Personally I'm hoping for Helm in a later season
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 22:10
|
|
|
HIJK posted:I think the main problem with the book material re: Faramir and Denethor and the Ents is that there's very little in the way of conflict. It's understandable that PJ looked at it and went "this is unfilmable, this is just a lot of tragic figures being noble and not setting up any kind of conflict or character development." It would be hard to put that in a movie because frankly it's too subtle for cinema. I can't think of a single movie from the past that pulled off a similar kind of scene. That doesn't make their decisions necessarily correct but it is understandable why they felt like they had to punch it up. You see the same thing with the Rohirrim and Helm's Deep, Movie Theoden is a lot more jaded and bitter than Book Theoden but Movie Theoden having that conflict and completing a character arc of recovering his nobility after falling for Saruman's lies ended up being really noble and beautiful particularly since he was basically saved by his niece, and it was a lot more cinematic then the way that Book Theoden handled everything. What pisses me off is how the special features for Book 2 start with the Tolkien scholars talking about how a professional author would never have structured his story the way Tolkien did and how wonderful and unique it makes LotR and how it proves that professionals don't know everything and sometimes talented amateurs know something; and then about 45 minutes later they get to Jackson/Boyens/Walsh talking about screenwriting decisions and how they needed to change Faramir so he obeys modern screenwriting rules and goes on a journey and develops as a character; except also apparently the only journey that Denethor needs to go on is 100 feet straight down. Which just totally baffles me, when there's a perfectly good journey there for him in the book. If you're going to fiddle with Faramir with that justification, fair enough; but at least be consistent within yourself and keep the nuance that exists within Denethor! It would have cost nothing and let them keep the contrast between Theoden as the leader whose humility allows him to accept Gandalf's help and so is brought out of paranoia and despair, and "rose out of the shadows to a last fair morning", and Denethor as the leader whose pride leads him to reject Gandalf in favour of the tainted knowledge brought by the palantir, and so is brought down by his paranoia and despair. Nodosaur posted:It would have helped if the book showed him doing any great things instead of just butting heads with Gandalf then. He puts the rebuilding of the Rammas in order long before Gandalf and Merry arrive; he lights the warning beacons to call for aid from the rest of Gondor, and sends the Red Arrow to Theoden; he effectively questions his unexpected guests; he sees the value in taking Pippin into his service; he seems to understand much by what Gandalf and Pippin don't say in front of him; his decision to resist the besieging force in front of the city is at the very least defensible given what he knows at the time (it certainly isn't a suicide mission) and so is sending Faramir to command it; he then prepares a sortie to cover his men's retreat before Gandalf suggests it; he holds his nerve when giving the order to release the sortie so they don't go too early and get trapped outside the gate; and he doesn't get greedy and sounds the retreat before they can go too far and get caught by the enemy re-organising themselves. I don't think he necessarily does any great things while we're with him, but until Faramir is brought in wounded, he's clearly a competent and effective ruler in exactly the way that Theoden isn't when we first see Theoden at Meduseld.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 22:27
|
|
|
I'm not saying he's incompetent. But I was referring to him showing acts of generosity, instead of a force butting up against our heroes. He's presented as an antagonistic force to the main characters. Even him taking Pippin into his service feels like an effort to put one of the upstarts coming in and telling him how to run things under his thumb.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 23:19
|
|
|
Denethor’s questioning of Pippin is very pointedly intended to put pressure on Gandalf to be more open with him, because Denethor already knows that Gandalf is planning to return a king to Gondor with or without Denethor’s compliance. Gandalf specifically warns Pippin before their audience that when Denethor talks to him, he shouldn’t be forthcoming about the quest or about Aragorn! However, while Denethor is at first rather short with Pippin, Pippin’s response is courteous enough that Denethor warms to him. It’s Pippin’s own, unprompted idea to do fealty to Denethor. Denethor isn’t obliged to accept it, and given how much of a chump Pippin can be it wouldn’t be surprising if he didn’t, but he does. Gandalf later guesses, and he’s probably right, that Denethor found it a very touching gesture and that he finds Pippin endearing. It is an act of lordly generosity for him to respond favorably to Pippin.my bony fealty posted:I would like to see Aragorn knows Bombadil by name, well enough to call him “old Bombadil”. For his part, Bombadil shows the hobbits a vision of Elessar in his house before they even meet Aragorn. So I’d say they’re probably on good terms and frankly I can’t imagine a guy like Strider wandered Eriador for decades without occasionally stopping in to smoke a bowl at ole Tom’s house.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 23:47
|
|
|
I think Faramir and the Ithilien Blacksite is sort of still in keeping with his musing about the dead Easterling, but only in ways the movie doesn't have time to go into. He's still a man of peace born into a kingdom at constant war. The film goes more into how unpleasant his war is, in sequence 1) getting denigrated by dad because the war is being lost, 2) slaughtering unsuspecting men from the bushes, 3) beating """enemy spies""" for information, 4) losing Osgiliath, again. I dunno if I agree with it but I think I see where they were going?
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 23:57
|
|
|
Ginette Reno posted:Faramir beating the poo poo out of Gollum is such an egregious rape of his character that I laugh out loud every time I see that scene. I loving hate mouth sounds and people eating disgustingly and that scene just pissed me off, not at the character, but that it was in the movie at all.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2018 23:59
|
|
|
Yeah well I have one friend who refuses to even watch Fellowship because he considers the whole thing to have been ruined by Dalek Galadriel, so what you gonna do.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2018 00:16
|
|
|
Fellowship is by far my favorite of the three movies. It's the only one where I'd entertain the notion that it, on balance, improves from the book
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2018 00:19
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:Fellowship is by far my favorite of the three movies. It's the only one where I'd entertain the notion that it, on balance, improves from the book I mean they are different mediums. A movie is a bad book and a book is a bad movie. What criteria are you even using to compare them. This is book barn so I’m being rigorous
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2018 00:20
|
|
|
euphronius posted:I mean they are different mediums. A movie is a bad book and a book is a bad movie. Personal enjoyment is my rigorous criteria. My enjoyment of Fellowship the book and Fellowship the movie are close to equal and it's possible the movie edges it out. The other two aren't even close.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2018 00:23
|
|
|
Data Graham posted:Yeah well I have one friend who refuses to even watch Fellowship because he considers the whole thing to have been ruined by Dalek Galadriel, so what you gonna do. That is a real bad scene but it’s still the best movie. cheetah7071 posted:Fellowship is by far my favorite of the three movies. It's the only one where I'd entertain the notion that it, on balance, improves from the book No Bombadil no buy
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2018 00:34
|
|
|
Bombadil is my least favorite part of Fellowship by a huge margin. Old forest and barrow wights are good though
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2018 00:36
|
|
|
Bombadil is probably the best part of the entire book apart from Moria. The poetry is amazing.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2018 00:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 14:40 |
|
|
skasion posted:That is a real bad scene but it’s still the best movie. Bombadil sucks and you know it.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2018 00:45
|
|