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Mr. Maltose posted:Also it’s kind of messed up to compare competitive games of skill to what should be a cooperative experience.
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May 23, 2018 21:24
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Okay but also you shouldn’t be trying to win an rpg like you do a game of bowling, which is my entire point.
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May 23, 2018 21:28
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Splicer posted:D&D does not mechanically support a charismatic fighter that is also good at fightering If you are the DM and this is what you are telling your players when one of them says to you "I want to be a charismatic fighter" then you are failing as a DM. If this is the hurdle you're stumbling on then D&D is not the system that can prop you up.
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May 23, 2018 21:34
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mastershakeman posted:DM for our Google Hangouts+roll20 game is back to complaining about roll20 map and monster creation being "60 times slower " than whiteboard. While I like being able to measure distances and move myself in roll20 , I want things to be as easy as possible. What method are they using for map creation now? I guess I’ve used Skype before, but I prefer roll20
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May 23, 2018 21:36
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^^^roll20. I'm not clear why it takes him so long. Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Right - I actually also insist on video chat in my game but I don't see what moving away from roll20 has to do with moving away from google hangouts. oh. Just wanted all in one solution, that's all. I wonder if online whiteboard software is enough or if its just an issue of drawing with mouse vs hand.
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May 23, 2018 21:39
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Mr. Maltose posted:Okay but also you shouldn’t be trying to win an rpg like you do a game of bowling, which is my entire point. My players put way more energy and thought into how make sure they beat the monsters at the table than they do when they actually go bowling. I can understand the analogy in that there's no one to compete against, but, given that my players are certainly trying really hard to succeed at whatever they do, I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate here. A challenging, dangerous dungeon filled with treasure may not have an explicit win condition but it definitely has a lose condition.
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May 23, 2018 22:12
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Baby T. Love posted:If you are the DM and this is what you are telling your players when one of them says to you "I want to be a charismatic fighter" then you are failing as a DM. If this is the hurdle you're stumbling on then D&D is not the system that can prop you up. Without, at a minimum, merging str/con and mooshing the three mental saves into a universal will save, thereby enabling the fighter to actually become charismatic
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May 23, 2018 22:37
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Several people are missing a very important distinction, so I feel it warrants reiterating. Criticizing the rules as written is not the same thing as criticizing people who enjoy the game despite it's faults. A good group can make any game fun. A good DM can likely make any game workable with enough time and effort. But considering we are spending money for these rules, it's fair to point out when following them does not result in the desired or expected results, and to call that bad design. Sharing your group's fix or work around is fine, but that's not actually a defense of the system. In fact, it only highlight's the fault. To use a lovely car analogy (cause I really don't know cars), sinking a small fortune into making a lemon into a hot-rod doesn't make the original model a good car.
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May 23, 2018 22:49
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glitchwraith posted:Criticizing the rules as written is not the same thing as criticizing people I would agree with you if there weren't people in here literally saying things like "players finding fixes to D&D 5e instead of playing a different system are engaging in self delusion."
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May 23, 2018 22:57
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glitchwraith posted:Several people are missing a very important distinction, so I feel it warrants reiterating. I don't like this dumbass game either but the posts about how bad it is are so stale I'd somehow rather read monster envy's unconditional enthusiasm than the same argument again. Can we just take 5e being bad as a foregone conclusion among the folks who have thought about it for even a few minutes and, instead of rehashing precisely why for the third time this month, discuss ways of doing the things it does poorly well instead, whether in other systems or by hacking on top of this one? Obviously this thread doesn't have to tailor itself to my preferences but the repetition is boring as hell.
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May 23, 2018 23:02
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mastershakeman posted:oh. Just wanted all in one solution, that's all. I wonder if online whiteboard software is enough or if its just an issue of drawing with mouse vs hand. Draw on paper, take picture, upload, resize?
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May 23, 2018 23:02
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Obviously this thread doesn't have to tailor itself to my preferences but the repetition is boring as hell. I've only posted in this thread for a couple of months and I've already seen the Charisma Fighter thing three times. I feel like I'm losing my loving mind.
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May 23, 2018 23:06
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Blockhouse posted:I've only posted in this thread for a couple of months and I've already seen the Charisma Fighter thing three times. I feel like I'm losing my loving mind. It feels like this thread is evidence that, in fact, convincing people to play other systems actually IS harder than fixing 5E.
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May 23, 2018 23:11
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Dallan Invictus posted:It feels like this thread is evidence that, in fact, convincing people to play other systems actually IS harder than fixing 5E. Just speaking from personal experience, unsolicited "x sucks you should play/watch/read x instead" advice, no matter how reasonable or well intentioned, has never actually had the desired effect and will just make people want to double down to spite you. I don't know why that particular drum gets banged on constantly in this thread. I don't know why people on either side of the discussion have such an investment in what people play or how they choose to play it or with criticizing obvious system flaws that it causes these arguments to be regurgitated constantly. I don't understand any of it. Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 23:17 on May 23, 2018 |
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May 23, 2018 23:15
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It’s not that fixing 5E is hard, it’s that it’s impossible without turning it into a dramatically different game — and we know how people react to being told they might rather play a different game.
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May 23, 2018 23:19
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Blockhouse posted:Just speaking from personal experience, unsolicited "x sucks you should play/watch/read x instead" advice, no matter how reasonable or well intentioned, has never actually had the desired effect and will just make people want to double down to spite you.
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May 23, 2018 23:23
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This particular shitstorm kicked off when I posted a story about a new player in work getting hammered by the standard newbie traps, which Reik took offence to. e: took offence to the idea that 5e has newbie traps, that is. Splicer fucked around with this message at 23:34 on May 23, 2018 |
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May 23, 2018 23:24
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:My players put way more energy and thought into how make sure they beat the monsters at the table than they do when they actually go bowling. I can understand the analogy in that there's no one to compete against, but, given that my players are certainly trying really hard to succeed at whatever they do, I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate here. A challenging, dangerous dungeon filled with treasure may not have an explicit win condition but it definitely has a lose condition. My point is about game design and not rubber meeting road play, which is probably the disconnect here. You don’t approach building a game like a tabletop rpg like you do a game like bowling, and saying that because the latter does x it’s okay the former does is a pretty bad take.
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May 23, 2018 23:31
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Splicer posted:This particular shitstorm kicked off when I posted a story about a new player in work getting hammered by the standard newbie traps, which Reik took offence to. Like, I feel bad for your coworker and I'm sorry he has fallen into a newbie trap and I hope he has fun playing rpgs anyway and we don't have to discuss the myriad flaws with 5e from the beginning just because someone disagreed.
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May 23, 2018 23:34
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Mr. Maltose posted:My point is about game design and not rubber meeting road play, which is probably the disconnect here. You don’t approach building a game like a tabletop rpg like you do a game like bowling, and saying that because the latter does x it’s okay the former does is a pretty bad take. How does the competitive nature of the theoretical rules of bowling change the fact that different activities are going to stress different things? How is it valid to pick skills that a participant ought to cultivate in order to enjoy that particular activity in one case but not the other? Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 23:49 on May 23, 2018 |
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May 23, 2018 23:41
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We could talk about the new book it's cool.
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May 23, 2018 23:51
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MonsterEnvy posted:We could talk about the new book it's cool. I love the designs for the gnome clockwork robots and they make me want to run a gnome-themed dungeon at some point
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May 23, 2018 23:59
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MonsterEnvy posted:We could talk about the new book it's cool. Never let it be said that Goons let new content get in the way of poo poo posting.
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May 24, 2018 00:07
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Blockhouse posted:I love the designs for the gnome clockwork robots and they make me want to run a gnome-themed dungeon at some point I also like the customizations for them. An enhancement that gives one a buff and a malfunction that impedes it in some way.
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May 24, 2018 00:08
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I don't see what competitive vs cooperative has to do with your point though - different activities stress different cognitive or physical abilities. Bowling is an example of an activity that taxes your physical ability to roll a ball. The style of tabletop rpg that I enjoy and would design is an activity that stresses your ability to communicate, use your wits to avoid danger, and tell an improvised story. That doesn't mean that it's invalid to play another way, but you're going further and saying that in and of itself is invalid. I can accept that not everyone finds that fun, just like not everyone finds bowling fun. (I still think serious competitive bowling is probably not how bowling was "designed" and I could easily design a cooperative game around the core mechanics of bowling.) Cooperative versus competitive is literally the entirety of my point, you’re getting hung up because I said “of skill” I guess which was ancillary to my point and probably shouldn’t have been put in at all since it’s apparently completely derailed things.
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May 24, 2018 00:25
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MonsterEnvy posted:We could talk about the new book it's cool. I'm waiting to hear from Total Party Thrill, those guys know what's up.
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May 24, 2018 00:25
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Mr. Maltose posted:Cooperative versus competitive is literally the entirety of my point, you’re getting hung up because I said “of skill” I guess which was ancillary to my point and probably shouldn’t have been put in at all since it’s apparently completely derailed things.
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May 24, 2018 00:30
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mango sentinel posted:I'm waiting to hear from Total Party Thrill, those guys know what's up. I've never heard of this podcast. Are they worth listening to?
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May 24, 2018 00:40
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e: never mind.
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May 24, 2018 00:54
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:(6 Epic Tweets I Totally Dropped on Mearls in 2014) lmao that you think this is what happens
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May 24, 2018 01:02
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People always complain about 5e, and then someone complains about people always complaining about 5e, and then someone points out THAT always happens, and then
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May 24, 2018 01:32
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Are the Demon Lord entries in Mordenkainen's Tome Of Foes really just a copy/paste of the pages in Out Of The Abyss? Like, same art and everything? For real, the only difference I see is (some of) the short introductory paragraph. tome of foes posted:This section provides game statistics for the demon lords who are detailed in chapter 1. They are incredibly formidable opponents. OoTA posted:Here are game statistics for the demon lords who have roles to play in this story. Beware! They are formidable opponents.
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May 24, 2018 01:44
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Why/how does d&d make people so mad WebDM put up a video discussing how to roleplay Bards, and also has some advice for how to roleplay a character more charismatic than yourself. They bring up the interesting argument of it being fine to roleplay a character stronger or smarter than yourself, but charisma is the one stat you somehow need to demonstrate in person is a little silly. That's RE: whatever the dumb fighter argument is this week Firstborn fucked around with this message at 01:50 on May 24, 2018 |
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May 24, 2018 01:48
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There was an old Dragon magazine that had a cool idea for roleplaying a villain with like 25 INT. Every player goes around and declares what they are going to do this turn, and all of those things happen, but the BBEG gets to go first
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May 24, 2018 01:58
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AlphaDog posted:Are the Demon Lord entries in Mordenkainen's Tome Of Foes really just a copy/paste of the pages in Out Of The Abyss? Like, same art and everything? They said ahead of time there were reprinting the Demon Lords in Tome of Foes. Which I am fine with as the Demon Lords are pretty iconic and it would make sense to put them in a Monster Manuelish book rather then leaving them stuck in one Adventure. Anyway to get to the actual question they are not just a Copy Paste, the Demon Lords for the most part are actully weaker then they were in Out of the Abyss. Most of them have lost HP and Damage. Demogorgon for example lost 90 hp off his average. His tentacles now deal 3d12+9 rather then 4d12+9, and his tail does 2d10 + 9 plus 2d10 Necrotic, when they used to be 4d10s.
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May 24, 2018 02:12
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That's why I asked - I only glanced over them and noted the same art and layout. Then Juiblex's stats were the same at least in the first column, and the descriptive text seemed the same too. Is there any official word on how to reconcile the differences? Like, are the new statblocks considered errata for the old, or what? e: I'd also be interested to hear why the changes were made, and if there are other reprints with changes. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 02:39 on May 24, 2018 |
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May 24, 2018 02:31
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Blockhouse posted:I don't know why that particular drum gets banged on constantly in this thread. I don't know why people on either side of the discussion have such an investment in what people play or how they choose to play it or with criticizing obvious system flaws that it causes these arguments to be regurgitated constantly. I don't understand any of it. So theres a few different reasons historically. The first is that D&D is the entry point into table top roleplaying and unlike virtually any other media/genre/experience, it holds complete and utter dominance to the point that most people don't even know or understand the concept of table top roleplaying games and look at it as 'so its Dungeons and Dragons?' There is a reason 'is this dungeons and dragons' is a meme at this point because its so utterly dominated in the public perception. It's as if people though of video games as 'Call of Duty' so that when they are show a mmorpg or a rts, their response is 'so is this the new Call of Duty?' This is magnified with a lot of people seeing it used as the live play/podcast game of choice. This means that almost without fail its the first tabletop rpg people end up playing and like anything, its the thing they will set their standards to forever. The result of this is usually either they end up disliking how it plays in reality and then never playing tabletop rpgs again, because this is what they perceive this as the be all and end all of tabletop rpgs, or they enjoy it and then never try anything else ever. This never trying anything else mentality results in continually atrocious poo poo being put (you can already see it with stuff like the warhammer 40k in D&D5e, star wars in 5e, Mecha combat in 5e etc) out until we get pulled back into the d20 hell era where every game, genre and theme is all locked into just being part of D&D5e regardless of whether it fits or not. To compare with the d20 glut era it basically broke the brains of a large number of the audience because they made assumptions about how games work based on the design decisions of D&D. We can see it happening in this thread even, the idea that there are narrative and social mechanics that allow you to lean on it to cover a players social weaknesses while still allowing people to roleplay out a situation. This is a problem that has been solved a dozen different ways but is still being brought back up again here. We can see where someone had to explain that D&D is a binary success/failure system and thats a bad thing game where you are supposed to be running a social improv. The whole idea of a social improv is you should provide a 'yes and....' to everything but a flat yes or no breaks that. Again this is something thats been solved in a dozen different forms but is still here. Or the incredible problem of player A wants to go left, Player B wants to go right, which way does the party go still hasn't been solved in D&D outside of the objectively wrong answer of 'we split up'. The result is that what people imagine D&D to be like is usually nothing like what actually happens in a game and thats a problem. God it still can't even handle a resting system without everyone actively cooperating and accepting that they should work against the mechanic in the book. A game system should actively encourage or even force the style of game not actively fight it. Fundamentally the idea that you can roll your dice and have nothing happen is incredibly bad and dated. Now you might be thinking 'who cares if people try D&D and then literally never move on, who cares as long as they are having fun?' To an extent that is perfectly fine but for a lot of people out there its incredibly inadequate as the be all and end all. Its very hard to get into and requires 1 person to have to invest a huge amount of time and resources (far beyond most other rpgs). It's incredibly confusing and obtuse for anyone going in blind, and is actively counter intuitive in many circumstances (such as a good grappled being a rogue or bard instead of fighter or barbarian). It doesn't offer much support or guidance on how to use vast quantities of the system and because of it requiring so much in and out meta knowledge it teaches people that all rpgs require this. It teaches people that when mechanics don't work for you the correct answer is to just ignore them rather than figuring out what the mechanics of the system are trying to get you to do and the style of play they are encouraging. Theres a great joke about D&D causing brain damage but to some extent it is true, its teaching people really bizarre habits that they internalise as being normal. Now for many people they'll play their 1 d&d campaign and never play again or play D&D forever and that might be fine but for a lot of people who aren't looking for that exact very specific type of experience or whose character concepts/preferred genre/preferred tone/preferred gameplay style/preferred roleplaying style isn't supported in D&D its a nightmare. I've seen it time and time again where these people will just never play D&D ever again or they will bring up their complaint, not do anything about it and then the group will mystery fall apart. It's incredibly frustrating and because D&D is such a gatekeeper to the hobby its near impossible to explain to people why this is happening. People get passionate because they see this happening over and over again and it's mind numbly frustrating when someone comes in with a hot take to say "nothing is wrong with D&D and its perfect why are you complaining about it". I would never say any rpg is perfect (except Dread obviously), and you are broke brains as hell if you genuinely thing so. It seems to be almost a D&D exclusive thing where when a person points out problems, someone comes in and says 'no actually its fine, just do it like this' to almost any complaint about the game. So finally thats why D&D arguments constantly take place, I assume because many D&D players just genuinely don't know the breadth of rpg design choices out there or ways to solve problems or what the actual mechanics of D&D are encouraging or pushing you towards. I am physically incapable of shutting up about the FFG Star Wars system but when someone comes in saying 'god this game sucks the loving FFG gun porn thing is a mess', my response is basically to agree. It's something tonally and mechanically very out of whack with the system and is a huge pain to deal with. I'm running a D&D 5e game because of requests from friends wanting to play D&D because thats the thing they've heard about and absolutely just want to play that as opposed to any other table top rpg. I've experienced first hand just how much work you need to put into the game and how many goddamn customisations I have to make to monsters and abilities to make poo poo actually work properly in any kind of narrative I enjoy playing. gently caress I had to redesign the rest system and hit dice stuff because I would die if I had to listen to people discussing if they should go back and take a long rest or not. I will not pretend some of the complaining isn't based on personal frustrations but its usually made a lot worse because I can see into rulebook sitting next to me that that doesn't have these problems. This is without getting into the shittyness behind the game.
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May 24, 2018 02:54
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AlphaDog posted:That's why I asked - I only glanced over them and noted the same art and layout. Then Juiblex's stats were the same at least in the first column, and the descriptive text seemed the same too. I think the reason the changes were made were to match them with their CR's as by the DMG guidelines. Funny enough from your checking Juiblex is one of the Demon Lords that is unchanged from what I remember. If I recall correctly Orcus and Zuggtmoy were also not changed. Checking Baphomet for example in out the Abyss actually matches up to a CR 24. We as his Mordenkainen's tome of foes versions matches up to CR 23 like he is listed as having. I personally would have rather upped their CR rather then nerf them. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 02:59 on May 24, 2018 |
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May 24, 2018 02:56
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i like dungeons dragons are ok too i guess
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May 24, 2018 02:58
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Firstborn posted:Why/how does d&d make people so mad It's a system that was once pretty good at being a logistically challenging dungeon/wilderness crawl, but eventually migrated away from that and toward more generalist places. Except it never really added in support for doing any of the things it claimed to let you do, the same way dungeon crawling was supported. So people come to D&D expecting it to deliver experiences that it claims to be able to provide, but really can't, and it's not as good doing dungeon crawls as it used to be, either.
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