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Actually moving around the map feels far slower than in PoE, and the maps are much larger and often barren. Rifts not so much, but there was still the occasional dead end I'd find myself slowly trudging back from in between dash bursts or w/e. ee: they're great for zipping between mobs, the problem is all the times when mobs are further than that distance, which happened a lot. Gitro has a new favorite as of 03:06 on May 25, 2018 |
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May 25, 2018 02:51
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The Something Awful Forums > Main > Post Your Favorite (or Request): Coldly Compiled Lists > PYF thing dragging this CRPG down: even walking annoys usscarycave posted:This is a sad day for the Blockhead tribe. Honestly, how did anyone ever beat him without recording the screen? Most people can't hold patterns that long and precise in their heads!
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May 25, 2018 04:21
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Poulpe posted:All of the "I walk faster" movement abilities, Witch Doctor, Necro, and I think Crusader? Crusader's summons a big warhorse to ride around on and it has a rune that lets you drag some enemies behind you, so it's not all terrible. But yeah most of them are either "move faster w/ unit walk" or brief combat mobility like the Demon Hunter's Vault. Not that you can't do some fun things with them, but it would have been nice to see them fleshed out better. Also more tangibly, a lot of them have funky interactions with map tiles so sometimes you can skip through/past/over map elements and other times you can't. And while I'm kvetching, it's also weird that every character (eventually) gets +25% movement speed through the Paragon system, at which point it becomes a meaningless stat on items because that's the cap. John Murdoch has a new favorite as of 05:23 on May 25, 2018 |
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May 25, 2018 05:07
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Erotic Wakes posted:Middle Earth: Shadow of War had a free weekend last week and the implementation was pretty terrible in that it would only let you play the first few hours and then locked you out from further progress after finishing the first chapter. The thing is that the first chapter is basically an extended tutorial with a bunch of scripted story-driven missions and plays completely different from the actual meat of the game which is a freeform sandbox based on building up your orc army and methodically infiltrating and taking over strongholds, so the demo ends right when you get the ability to dominate orcs and all the actual new features that weren't in the first game start to unlock. It also came at a weird point of transition where they have announced that they are removing the lovely microtransactions and lootboxes that made everyone turn on the game in the first place and have disabled the ability to buy premium currency with real money but it's still in a state of transition so the actual marketplace is still in the game and there's basically have an entire mechanic that you can't use because they haven't added a way to earn premium currency in game. They did a free weekend and then didn't actually let people play the whole game? Thats impressively stupid. Thats the loving point of a free weekend. Let people invest enough hours into the game so that they go all "sunk cost fallacy" and buy the game. The can't even exploit people right!
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May 25, 2018 07:37
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Having a bunch of auto pause settings in Pillars of Eternity is great when I want to have the option of accurately and immediately responding to various events during combat, but sometimes I try to pause manually to do something and an auto pause event happens just as I'm pressing the pause button, which unpauses the action and sometimes this happens several times in a row and then I decide to just wait for the game to pause itself again, and that's exactly when the auto pause events take a break too and I end up sitting there for a couple of seconds waiting for the pause to happen.
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May 25, 2018 09:25
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PubicMice posted:The Something Awful Forums > Main > Post Your Favorite (or Request): Coldly Compiled Lists > PYF thing dragging this CRPG down: even walking annoys us Phones have had cameras for a pretty long time now
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May 25, 2018 10:37
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PubicMice posted:Honestly, how did anyone ever beat him without recording the screen? Most people can't hold patterns that long and precise in their heads! Each blockhead is a strict grid of where dots are allowed to appear with no repeat dots so by the final guy its doable to simply memorize where dots arent. Or just take a drat video.
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May 25, 2018 14:03
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Sniper Party posted:Having a bunch of auto pause settings in Pillars of Eternity is great when I want to have the option of accurately and immediately responding to various events during combat, but sometimes I try to pause manually to do something and an auto pause event happens just as I'm pressing the pause button, which unpauses the action and sometimes this happens several times in a row and then I decide to just wait for the game to pause itself again, and that's exactly when the auto pause events take a break too and I end up sitting there for a couple of seconds waiting for the pause to happen. The control scheme in PoE is just wonky as hell no matter which way you turn it. I've had to do a complete hotkey revamp on it just to give it some semblance of user-friendliness, and there are still craptastic design choices that bug me. Maybe it's just me - did all isometrics throw their control scheme across the keyboard before now? Because it feels like you have to have three hands to work this game properly.
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May 25, 2018 16:52
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While we're on the topic of Path of Exile, I got into it a month or two ago and there's definitely some things: - As mentioned above, the movement abilities feel lackluster. There's always a significant delay when using them (gated by stats like attack speed or cast speed) and it never feels right or satisfying unless you are perfectly kitted with gear and stats to use them. - The above also applied to many of the game's abilities. You often feel like you don't "work" until around level 60 or so when you're able to equip endgame gear. This is about 4-5 hours of gameplay, generously. - You can wear 5 flasks at any time, many of which give temporary bonuses for ~5-10 seconds or so. The vast majority of endgame builds ask that you maintain these mini buffs at all times. Using a macro to press the 4-5 flask buttons simultaneously is considered cheating.  - Often you will blow up and have very little idea why. - The game's mechanics are DEEEEEEEEP. There is a LOT of knowledge and a LOT of interactions and fully understanding all of it will take months of gameplay. It doesn't respect your time in a lot of ways, but admittedly the game was and is designed for a hardcore audience.
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May 25, 2018 17:19
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Yakuza 0 Majima's Legend Style is way less fun to use than Kiryu's.
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May 25, 2018 17:27
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Rampant Dwickery posted:The control scheme in PoE is just wonky as hell no matter which way you turn it. I've had to do a complete hotkey revamp on it just to give it some semblance of user-friendliness, and there are still craptastic design choices that bug me.
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May 25, 2018 18:17
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RareAcumen posted:Yakuza 0 Majima's Legend Style is way less fun to use than Kiryu's. I never got very deep into them but I felt like Dragon of Dojima was focused on wrecking a single foe and Mad Dog of Shimano was about hitting multiple people at once Like, his basic Heat Action where he gets three people with his dagger is pretty much an instakill on most enemies you'll face I still used it against bosses during the Finale because I thought it was fitting.
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May 25, 2018 19:41
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Rampant Dwickery posted:The control scheme in PoE is just wonky as hell no matter which way you turn it. I've had to do a complete hotkey revamp on it just to give it some semblance of user-friendliness, and there are still craptastic design choices that bug me. Most old games in general had pretty bad default control schemes (IIRC Deus Ex expected you to reload with ","). Isometric RPGs are generally slow they could still get away with having keys all over the keyboard because it meant they could make sense. I for inventory, C for Character and L for log is pretty easy to remember even if they are far apart.
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May 25, 2018 20:05
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PubicMice posted:Honestly, how did anyone ever beat him without recording the screen? Most people can't hold patterns that long and precise in their heads! Dry erase marker. Didn't have a phone or a digital camera in the PS2 days, so I just dotted the screen as they appeared and remembered the rough order they showed up in.
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May 25, 2018 20:16
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Poulpe posted:- As mentioned above, the movement abilities feel lackluster. There's always a significant delay when using them (gated by stats like attack speed or cast speed) and it never feels right or satisfying unless you are perfectly kitted with gear and stats to use them. Poulpe posted:- You can wear 5 flasks at any time, many of which give temporary bonuses for ~5-10 seconds or so. The vast majority of endgame builds ask that you maintain these mini buffs at all times. Using a macro to press the 4-5 flask buttons simultaneously is considered cheating.
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May 25, 2018 21:18
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Poulpe posted:All of the "I walk faster" movement abilities, Witch Doctor, Necro, and I think Crusader? The Crusader summons a giant flaming horse, so you are very wrong.
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May 26, 2018 00:32
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Samuringa posted:I never got very deep into them but I felt like Dragon of Dojima was focused on wrecking a single foe and Mad Dog of Shimano was about hitting multiple people at once Kiryu's being more suited to take down one dude is fine, IMO, since that's pretty much how Rush style works anyway. I can work with that. Majima sadly, only gets the variations on how his combo starts but they all end the same which makes it feel like there're a lot less options available.
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May 26, 2018 01:58
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It's probably a bad game anyway but I've been trying to play this Dauntless game and so far it's just been sitting in line waiting to launch.
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May 26, 2018 02:00
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Len posted:It's probably a bad game anyway but I've been trying to play this Dauntless game and so far it's just been sitting in line waiting to launch. I waited three hours in queue, lagged like mad through the intro cutscenes for some reason, made a character, aaaaand when I finally got into gameplay the camera had completely detached itself from my character and buried itself several feet underground staring at a flat rock texture, rendering the game completely unplayable. I could still move around and poo poo, even fall off the side of the island, but that camera would refuse to move an inch. Nothing I could find or do would fix it, there wasn't even a 'return to main menu' button, just a 'quit to desktop' so I had to quit out of the game, and if I had the patience, which I didn't, sit in queue again to see if it'd work properly next time. Edit: My friends who managed to get some time in before the servers became irredeemably overloaded say it was pretty alright for what it is though.
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May 26, 2018 04:40
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I feel like Diablo 3 endgame is so optimised it basically feels like playing a slot machine half the time. Is there an ARPG that focuses on replayability instead of endless endgame grinding?
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May 26, 2018 07:09
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The intended endgame of any ARPG is literally endless grinding. That's the whole point.
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May 26, 2018 07:44
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LIVE AMMO ROLEPLAY posted:I feel like Diablo 3 endgame is so optimised it basically feels like playing a slot machine half the time. But the game that replaced this familiar desire to replay with a new build is Dark Souls [x], mostly Dark Souls 2 and Bloodborne though. Especially in DS2, there's just a fuckload of interesting weapons, spells, and combinations thereof where I feel that after at least 10 characters where I cycle through at least 10 weapons each I still haven't gotten my fill of it. In BB, eventually I'll have played every weapon/backup weapon combo because there's less than 20 in there. But that I haven't done yet, so it's also fine.
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May 26, 2018 09:53
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exquisite tea posted:The intended endgame of any ARPG is literally endless grinding. That's the whole point. That became the whole point. 
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May 26, 2018 11:49
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I mean since 2001 the "endgame" around Diablo 2 was literally killing 2-3 bosses within a minute for items over and over again, or perhaps more realistically botting for them. Later games have been better about offering more variety, but the eternal search for phat loot is an integral and in my mind totally inseparable element of the ARPG genre and has been for 20 years now. If it's not there then it's not an ARPG. Look elsewhere.
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May 26, 2018 11:57
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Futuresight posted:That became the whole point. There was never any other point. ARPGs are defined by the games that started them. Which were all grindfests.
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May 26, 2018 12:13
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ARPGs started as essentially real-time roguelikes with perma-death turned off by default. The idea was to play through them and the randomness added spice to the playthrough. Players grinding for gear at max level was an emergent behaviour, it was never intended. Then somewhere along the line people became convinced that this grind was all there was to the games and developers started making this a self-fulfilling prophecy. Saying ARPGs are all about grinding is like saying MMOs are all about raiding. Plenty of people never engaged with the supposed endgame in these games. In general I think people have huge blind spots for other modes of play. You see it in CoD where the narrative is people only play for the multiplayer (a sizeable chunk play singleplayer only, and more people actually play the zombie mode than the standard PVP mode). Even in League of Legends there's a sizeable contingent of players who exclusively play co-op against bots. Exclusively. I have no loving idea how they can find it fun, but apparently they do. EDIT: Look at this site I remember form back in the day: http://sirian.warpcore.org/diablo2/diablo2.html (Updated: November 16, 2001 lol pretty good estimate on when this kind of thing died exquisite tea) This is a guy who played through diablo 2 with various gimmick and challenge builds. Nothing else. I don't think he ever grinded gear at endgame. There was a sizeable community built around this sort of thing that I was a part of back then. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't exist. EDIT 2: 2001 was the release of the D2 expansion, which killed a lot of build variants because of full immunes, something grinders didn't care about because they would just either play the power builds or only farm areas where full immunes to their build would not spawn. It dealt a severe blow to the full clear variant play style though. I think it did some other things like introduce areas and monsters that were more punishing to underleveled or undergeared characters which favoured grinding. Futuresight has a new favorite as of 12:36 on May 26, 2018 |
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May 26, 2018 12:26
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Futuresight posted:ARPGs started as essentially real-time roguelikes with perma-death turned off by default. The idea was to play through them and the randomness added spice to the playthrough. Players grinding for gear at max level was an emergent behaviour, it was never intended. Then somewhere along the line people became convinced that this grind was all there was to the games and developers started making this a self-fulfilling prophecy. You're missing the point- D2 is a game defined by grinding because the way you make progress is to do basically one thing, and as you play you get better at doing that thing, until you are able to do it to things that are more difficult to do it to. That's the entirety of the game. You kill monsters to get better at killing monsters. If an area is too challenging, your options are to a) kill more monsters, b) spend one of the rewards you got by killing monsters, or c) trade something with another player (which was acquired, at some point in its history, through killing monsters). It's not a grindfest because of the weird emergent behaviour of endgame players, grinding is in its fuckin' bones.
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May 26, 2018 12:50
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If you're not repeating areas you're essentially just clearing levels and leveling up and getting items through that. It's no different than any game with progression. Dark Souls for instance could qualify as a grinding game if killing things to become stronger is the requirement to grinding. I'd say it's only really grinding if you're repeating an area.
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May 26, 2018 13:00
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Len posted:It's probably a bad game anyway but I've been trying to play this Dauntless game and so far it's just been sitting in line waiting to launch. I played some in closed beta and it's a decent, simplified Monster Hunter clone. Wait a week for the open beta rush to die down and the servers to get unfucked.
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May 26, 2018 13:05
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You could always have a game where you loot your way to the end and build up a cool character along the way then win and play a completely different build next time. In Diablo 3 endgame (and more or less the rest of the game) the different monsters and locations mean essentially nothing, you end up mashing through them as fast as possible. There isn't a lot to make one rift different from another. I guess I just prefer Roguelikes, which apparently the original Diablo was inspired by.
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May 26, 2018 13:18
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Futuresight posted:If you're not repeating areas you're essentially just clearing levels and leveling up and getting items through that. It's no different than any game with progression. Dark Souls for instance could qualify as a grinding game if killing things to become stronger is the requirement to grinding. I'd say it's only really grinding if you're repeating an area. The only way to be strong enough to make progress in a Diablo game is to have killed enough things that you can acquire the gear, skills and stat points to proceed through next area without dying so often that you quit in frustration, and there are gates in the plot where you have to be able to kill very powerful monsters in order to progress. These fights are not determined by player ability, but by gear, skills, and items (E: all of which are unlocked by levelling, which is achieved through killing monsters). Yeah, the timing works out that if you clear every area you come across you'll probably be powerful enough to take on the next area, but it's a grinding game because there is no other way to win, and no other way to make progress. You have to use better gear than your starting gear because eventually even basic enemies will drop an unarmoured character in a single blow. And to do that you need gold and items, and to get those you need to kill monsters. Meanwhile Dark Souls and other Metroidvania games can be beaten at level 1, naked, using starter equipment, by making sure you are never in a position where you risk actually tanking a hit. You can grind in them, lord knows I did, but that's a supplement to skillful control of the character. Somfin has a new favorite as of 13:21 on May 26, 2018 |
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May 26, 2018 13:19
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LIVE AMMO ROLEPLAY posted:You could always have a game where you loot your way to the end and build up a cool character along the way then win and play a completely different build next time. In Diablo (any of them) endgame (and more or less the rest of the game) the different monsters and locations mean essentially nothing, you end up mashing through them as fast as possible. There isn't a lot to make one rift different from another. That's literally the point of D2. You decide which end game build you want and then you only buy skills that make the last one good and then you just rush each difficulty before doing Baal runs on the hardest one over and over again. Oh you want to try something new? Time to redo everything you just did again.
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May 26, 2018 13:34
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Len posted:That's literally the point of D2. You decide which end game build you want and then you only buy skills that make the last one good and then you just rush each difficulty before doing Baal runs on the hardest one over and over again. Try something new aka follow a different guide.
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May 26, 2018 13:37
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I think there's a bit of a difference between gaining levels and becoming stronger while playing through the game and actual, deliberate grinding. The former is just something that happens, because you can't turn off experience gain in D2 like you can just choose not to level in Dark Souls. It is absolutely, 100% possible with many, many builds to play through D2 without ever repeating a zone, source: I've done that countless times because that's the most fun for me. Conversely, Path of Exile is far more of a grinding game because if you do not trade, even getting any kind of build is 100% dependent on you repeating content because the skills aren't unlocked by leveling up (which happens naturally), but they're on items (which drop randomly). Of course, D2 is also quite a bit easier than PoE, but I'd say that's in large parts due to the fact that the latter doesn't want you to succeed without grinding, it's baked into the game structure from the get-go. Again, with "grinding" I mean "actively go back to an area of your choice and kill things there again and again to gain more levels/drops/other rewards than you would by just following the game's natural curve". It's a weird de-volution that's contrary to JRPGs, where the earliest ones were completely impossible to beat without grinding (I know there's a 22 minute speedrun for Dragon Warrior that abuses RNG so that you hit every 1/16 attack chance for the highest possible damage roll on the final boss but even in that speedrun he has to deliberately kill four Metal Slimes, aka grind) and later iterations have actually quite simple low-level runs (FFV is the earliest I can think of but I'd wager it exists for IV), are easy enough to beat without grinding at all even for less experienced players (VII), have hard stops to your progression (X and XIII) or even include a low-level option in the game (XII). What I'm saying is that back in D2's high time and my playing it daily because I couldn't get enough, I never farmed for endgame gear, but did a proto-LP on a forum dragging a Poison/Impale Amazon all the way through Hell, finishing at Level 71. For people not in the know, the poison part will kill anything in the game not immune to poison, if you have a literal hour to spare because that's how long the DOT eventually lasts. Impale is the slowest attack in the game with an animation that might take over one second to complete to hit a single enemy for admittedly massive damage (if they don't move out of the way). It takes a "bit" longer if you're frozen, which will happen if you play selffound, which I did. If that's possible without grinding, everything is. I didn't even go to the optional caves because that's boring and makes for bad screenshots.
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May 26, 2018 13:51
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Whole buncha people ITT think you start counting at 2, apparently.
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May 26, 2018 13:51
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food court bailiff posted:Whole buncha people ITT think you start counting at 2, apparently. One is a loser number, i start with winners.
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May 26, 2018 13:53
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I've had to put down every Diablo-like on account that they're all linear, rely on Random dungeons over level-design, and all reliant on big numbers over player skill. Borderlands 2 sorta had a good idea by mixing the genre up with a open-world FPS, but that game lost me on because Gearbox always finds a way to ruin good ideas.
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May 26, 2018 14:03
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food court bailiff posted:Whole buncha people ITT think you start counting at 2, apparently. Loot grinding in Diablo 1 involved duplicating gold and then save scumming Wirt for enough resistance gear that you weren't completely miserable in the Hell levels. The alternative was to replay the Catacombs and Caves over and over again, hoping for drops. I don't know anyone who did Nightmare or Hell difficulty legit. Getting rid of the need to grind resistances for higher levels is one of the best changes made by Diablo 3.
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May 26, 2018 14:50
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food court bailiff posted:Whole buncha people ITT think you start counting at 2, apparently. Diablo 1 was rife with hackers and duping and the online scene was pretty dire. Probably an even bigger proportion of players just played it through like a singleplayer RPG than grinded for gear. I played it a bit online but it didn't really stand up well on that front. D2's closed servers (online only play on bnet servers) were a revelation.
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May 26, 2018 15:26
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RagnarokAngel posted:One is a loser number, i start with winners. It's the loneliest number that you'll ever do.
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