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Acebuckeye13 posted:More than that, the T-34 was a tank designed around mass production, and the Soviets were ruthless about cost-cutting. Each individual tank didn't have to be a world-beater, they just had to be good enough-and even the earlier ones were let down more by logistical failures and poorly trained crews than they were by design flaws. The Panther, by contrast, was just far too expensive of a tank to have the design flaws that it did. The T-34 was indeed designed for manufacturability, though it was a high performer first -- it completely changed the face of armored warfare and nothing the Germans had could stand up to it. It was nothing like the Sherman, though -- while a Tiger took 300,000 man hours to produce and a T-34 took about 40,000 (with the usual wildly ranging figures common to Soviet record keeping) a Sherman took just 10,000. Albert Khan, the architect who designed those production lines was a goddamn mastermind.
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May 27, 2018 07:16
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So, this battle possibly has two dead CVLs and possibly one Essex - or at least one Essex badly mauled that's gonna be in the repiar yards for a long time? For just a lot of lost planes. That's.. Not so bad - particularly for the Japanese at this stage in the war!
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May 27, 2018 08:09
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wiegieman posted:The T-34 was indeed designed for manufacturability, though it was a high performer first -- it completely changed the face of armored warfare and nothing the Germans had could stand up to it. It was nothing like the Sherman, though -- while a Tiger took 300,000 man hours to produce and a T-34 took about 40,000 (with the usual wildly ranging figures common to Soviet record keeping) a Sherman took just 10,000. An oft-quoted figure that I've heard is that the Germans killed 3 Allied tanks to every German one that was lost. But the Allies produced 10 tanks for every German tank. No idea on the accuracy of that, but I suspect that the number of kills was lower and that the actualproduction figure was higher. US manufacturing was positively goddamn ridiculous in WW2.
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May 27, 2018 09:03
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Grey Hunter posted:
I wonder if this game models the glue holding the plywood bombers together disolving in the Burmese heat and humidity.
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May 27, 2018 09:37
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A White Guy posted:An oft-quoted figure that I've heard is that the Germans killed 3 Allied tanks to every German one that was lost. But the Allies produced 10 tanks for every German tank. Even if that's true it's kinda misleading because tanks don't generally fight other tanks directly all that often. More tank kills are going to come from anti-tank guns, bazookas, mines and aircraft than other tanks. Again, assuming that's even accurate, you could chalk that up to the Allies post 1943/44 fighting a mostly offensive war and having to advance against entrenched defenses.
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May 27, 2018 10:01
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The Americans had a favourable kill ratio against Germany; claims of Panther/Tiger superiority come from Nazi or nazi-sympathetic sources. Given that defending tanks had the advantage over the attackers, losing 3.6 Panthers for every Sherman is not a good showing.
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May 27, 2018 10:46
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Additionally, 'lost' tanks might mean several things - it's not like every kill was that tank exploding in a huge fireball, taking the whole crew with them! Many would have been disabled or immobilized, with possible survivors. On top of that, the Allies were generally advancing, and the Axis retreating (in the back half of the war, anyway). Any 'lost' Allied tanks could be recovered, repaired, or at least stripped for parts once the battle moved on. The Germans couldn't do that nearly as often, as most of their busted hardware was overrun, further skewing their losses. Coucho Marx fucked around with this message at 12:06 on May 27, 2018 |
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May 27, 2018 12:01
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Panthers and Tigers were also drastically over-reported by Allied soldiers. Most any medium-sized armored vehicle soldiers encountered tended to get reported as a Panther even if it was something like a Hetzer or a StuG. Any big armored vehicle was almost invariably reported as a Tiger.
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May 27, 2018 13:32
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Well, there's a neat trick in statistics to estimate just how many of the damnable things there really are. It's called the, well, the German Tank Problem after exactly this situation.
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May 27, 2018 15:08
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Corvinus posted:The Americans had a favourable kill ratio against Germany; claims of Panther/Tiger superiority come from Nazi or nazi-sympathetic sources. Given that defending tanks had the advantage over the attackers, losing 3.6 Panthers for every Sherman is not a good showing. Kindly shut the hell up and stop making moronic statements. The claims of superiority did not come from only those sources, as the myth of their vast superiority stretched over decades. Want to know what's actually accurate? Cythereal posted:Panthers and Tigers were also drastically over-reported by Allied soldiers. Most any medium-sized armored vehicle soldiers encountered tended to get reported as a Panther even if it was something like a Hetzer or a StuG. Any big armored vehicle was almost invariably reported as a Tiger. Tigers being considered a boogeyman isn't some myth, it was something that was fairly legitimately believed at the time. Sure, as historians have heavily gone over the records in recent years (like that referenced book, which was published in 2015) and found that in most cases it was an AT gun or SPG doesn't magically make all those former claimants "Nazi-sympathizers." Nor does it make people in current times claiming that as common knowledge that either as, shockingly, not everyone follows military history particularly closely outside the common myths.
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May 27, 2018 17:19
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   Their troops are ashore, but I can still blast their ships.  So many ships. To be fair, there are a lot less than yesterday.  This surface attack was a little foolish.  We set a troopship on fire.  Most of their ships seem to be leaving now.  We pick off some of the wounded ships.   A much calmer day, and my new troops at Truk are finally ready to attack tomorrow. Today I dip below four thousand points away from doubling the Allies score.  We can start confirming the ships sunk at Truk now, will we get enough in the next few days to reach my target? Eighty ships sunk so far this month. But they have been much higher value than normal.
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May 27, 2018 17:55
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Lord Koth posted:Kindly shut the hell up and stop making moronic statements. The claims of superiority did not come from only those sources, as the myth of their vast superiority stretched over decades. Want to know what's actually accurate? Dude chill out
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May 27, 2018 19:59
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Incidently, a vet from down the street was one of the early American troops in North Africa. One day, while he was on duty, saw the barrel of a German tank cresting a hill in the distance. So he immediately called in an artilley barage from which they figured drove the tank off. A few hours later they reconned the hill and didn't find a knocked out tank but a dead camel. Comically he said they reported it as a tank that drove off. So, regardless of what books say I don't think we'll truly know much like the million man battles of ancient times. Now.... Grey crippled too many ships not to have the 100.
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May 27, 2018 20:50
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Deep Dish Fuckfest posted:Well, there's a neat trick in statistics to estimate just how many of the damnable things there really are. It's called the, well, the German Tank Problem after exactly this situation. That's shockingly accurate; estimate: 256 tanks a month, actual number: 255
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May 27, 2018 21:12
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Not gonna waste an opportunity to get mad about Tiger tanks in 2018.
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May 27, 2018 21:25
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mllaneza posted:That's shockingly accurate; estimate: 256 tanks a month, actual number: 255 8 bit tanks are so retro cool right now
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May 27, 2018 22:42
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...what kind of experience scores do these coastal gunners at Wake and Truk have by now? 
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May 27, 2018 23:33
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Flavius Belisarius posted:Not gonna waste an opportunity to get mad about Tiger tanks in 2018. I was trying to think of a funny neo nazi name and thought of "88 Flak" but then hated my self instantly.
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May 28, 2018 00:19
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Memorial Day has reacquainted me with a number of American post war comedies set during the Pacific War. Yeah, that’s not happening.
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May 28, 2018 00:50
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Magni posted:...what kind of experience scores do these coastal gunners at Wake and Truk have by now? Fortress Wake Island is certainly a novel strategy
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May 28, 2018 00:53
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680 shots for 8 hits is a pretty bad return. I hope most of those were an idiot with a .50 cal firing wildly
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May 28, 2018 00:59
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goatface posted:680 shots for 8 hits is a pretty bad return. I hope most of those were an idiot with a .50 cal firing wildly Idk how many naval artillery shots were needed on average to score a hit, but IIRC the average military unit fires something on the order of a few thousand bullets for every hit on the enemy so 680 might be good? 
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May 28, 2018 01:49
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Soo, how many kills this month were by airplanes and how many kills this month were by surface batteries?
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May 28, 2018 03:49
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There's a reason why Truk was subjected to an intense aerial bombardment for two full days and was never actually invaded, only isolated
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May 28, 2018 04:29
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Have we been keeping up the bombardment at Chungking, or is that something that should only be done sporadically?
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May 28, 2018 09:34
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Drone posted:Have we been keeping up the bombardment at Chungking, or is that something that should only be done sporadically? We are letting them get through the previous 100,000 J-Rations, in a month they will be too starved to fight again!
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May 28, 2018 10:07
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Drone posted:Have we been keeping up the bombardment at Chungking, or is that something that should only be done sporadically? it should be bombarded constantly.
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May 28, 2018 10:44
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goatface posted:680 shots for 8 hits is a pretty bad return. I hope most of those were an idiot with a .50 cal firing wildly dunno, the numbers boil down to an observed hit-rate of 1.2 %. Compared to the 2-3% of hits scored at jutland this sounds too bad. after all at Truk we most likely have light field guns firing without the sophisticated firecontrol of naval guns shooting at small manouvreable targets.
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May 28, 2018 17:28
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Deep Dish Fuckfest posted:Well, there's a neat trick in statistics to estimate just how many of the damnable things there really are. It's called the, well, the German Tank Problem after exactly this situation. this reminds me of another fun statistical thing that came up in WWII - the USAAF surveyed returning bombers and mapped the locations where they got hit by flak, but the statisticians showed that the places to reinforce the armor were the places where no returning planes ever had flak hits (because planes hit in those locations by flak did not return to join the database). citations here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Wald also the people who had to worry about managing trans-Atlantic shipping logistics kind of invented linear optimization, which sort of runs the world as explained by whats his name in Network (note: this has nothing to do with WWII) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9XeyBd_IuA in general i feel like WWII came at a time when technology was powerful but still grasp-able in a way it isn't today. like, computer bugs were literal moths, if you wanted to do 1+1=2 you had to figure out a bunch of electrical engineering and have some lady who's probably smarter than you move all the settings around on your office-sized computer, and so many technologies from night vision to penicillin to radar to obviously nuclear were born in that time. it would've been an interesting time to be a rich white male nerd. also let's be honest if you wanted to be on the cutting edge you kinda had to be american too, not that the brits didn't have fun at bletchley park and whatnot oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 17:53 on May 28, 2018 |
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May 28, 2018 17:49
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  I need those planes.  Bloody flak.  There are still a few ships to pick off.  This is acceptable losses against Spitfires.  Run and hide lads.  Truk could be something of a battle – they have a lot of men ashore – I have a lot more, but terrain is god here.  This was mainly an air day, but let's see what else we've picked up.  Disappointing.
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May 28, 2018 17:52
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Low allied losses, but a unit wiped out is nice.
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May 28, 2018 19:34
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Does anyone know on what page the Battle of Milne Bay went down?
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May 28, 2018 19:39
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Fader Movitz posted:Does anyone know on what page the Battle of Milne Bay went down? 121 https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3754889&pagenumber=121&perpage=40#post466894051
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May 28, 2018 20:02
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Gervasius posted:121 Great thanks!
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May 28, 2018 20:07
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oystertoadfish posted:this reminds me of another fun statistical thing that came up in WWII - the USAAF surveyed returning bombers and mapped the locations where they got hit by flak, but the statisticians showed that the places to reinforce the armor were the places where no returning planes ever had flak hits (because planes hit in those locations by flak did not return to join the database). citations here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Wald Yeah only the first computer, the only operational allied jet fighter, radar, VT fuses, even hobarts funnies: the back room boffins were employed by the state to be big old brains doing nothing but thinking.
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May 28, 2018 22:44
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That bomber thing is so army Galaxy Brain "All the planes that return have damage in these parts, make those parts stronger!!!!"
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May 28, 2018 23:05
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twelve thousand political points
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May 28, 2018 23:13
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lenoon posted:Yeah only the first computer, the only operational allied jet fighter, radar, VT fuses, even hobarts funnies: the back room boffins were employed by the state to be big old brains doing nothing but thinking. Konrad Zuse says hi from germany, aswell.
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May 28, 2018 23:30
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Holy smokes, a Flower-class corvette survived a couple of bomb hits? She displaces less than a thousand tonnes, and was designed initially as a whaling vessel!
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May 28, 2018 23:34
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Leperflesh posted:twelve thousand political points What should Grey be doing with these?
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