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It seems like these knights are sorta OP. Thread, please enlighten me if I'm wrong. Also I will probably get one bc my Deathwatch can't really handle more than 1-2 tanks, as evidenced by my disastrous defeat to a Guard/Ministorum army last week
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May 29, 2018 18:12
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Giant Isopod posted:Yessss that's more like it
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May 29, 2018 18:12
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TheBigAristotle posted:It seems like these knights are sorta OP. Thread, please enlighten me if I'm wrong. A Warlord Titan is OP until you find out it costs 4000 points.
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May 29, 2018 18:13
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TheBigAristotle posted:It seems like these knights are sorta OP. Thread, please enlighten me if I'm wrong. They seem OP until you realize that this one 28 wound, 3+ save model will likely be somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of your army. If you get first turn against them with something like Killshot Predators you've got a good chance of easily crippling your oppoent's army in a single turn of shooting
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May 29, 2018 18:15
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:So running a few numbers on M'Spreadsheet... Sorry, the volcano cannon is the Shadowsword armament? If so it’s worth noting that it’s on a lower BS so the comparison isn’t quite that jarring. Still interesting though, what are the stats on it? Harpoon gun seems fun but as you say I’d rather have the multiple shots usually. Flamer weapon and character sniping cruise missiles are just disgusting. Seems a bit shortsighted of them to include a weapon and stratagem where a cp farming army with a knight will just spend and try to nuke any warlord or key characters each turn.
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May 29, 2018 18:19
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They look crazy, but look at the loadout. This dude has two twin meltaguns which is like 70pts on its own. Then 4 of the rockets (I presume that's what's on top), and two twin whatever cannons on his shoulders, and then his main guns, plus the chassis. If it's south of 600pts I'll be amazed. Once you realise you can get like, 2 of them and a Guard battalion in a list it's a lot less scary, since you can beat them on objectives fairly trivially and most armies should be able to at least bracket one in a turn. Personally I'd just be throwing Slamguinius and friends in one's face, or popping them full of blaster and dissie fire. Another great use-case for Agents of Vect sniping that stratagem out as well. Glad that they've at least recognised the strength of Alaitoc et. al and there's more stuff in the game which counters it. Genghis Cohen posted:Sorry, the volcano cannon is the Shadowsword armament? If so it’s worth noting that it’s on a lower BS so the comparison isn’t quite that jarring. Still interesting though, what are the stats on it? Maybe we've finally found something that makes Rhinos etc. valuable again - hiding your characters from Dickhead Knight.
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May 29, 2018 18:21
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They're going to be the ~650 range.
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May 29, 2018 18:24
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Zuul the Cat posted:What was that prismatic gun on the Freeblade dude they teased? Would that be good at killing knights? It looks largely the same as the lascutter on forge worlds knight atropos:  Hope it still has the melee profile because knight with a laser blade is pretty rad.
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May 29, 2018 18:28
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Also i get the distinct feeling that stratagems going to be erratad to once per battle because thats loving disgusting for something they can do every turn.
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May 29, 2018 18:34
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The rumours from last week (which have been pretty accurate on all the other rules released so far) put these things around 670pts. What's going to be most interesting is what new rules / stratagems will be available to help mitigate incoming damage. Rotate Ion Shields is likely a thing. There's a rumoured household trait that means a Dominus doesn't degrade until losing 21 wounds.
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May 29, 2018 18:36
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Artum posted:It looks largely the same as the lascutter on forge worlds knight atropos: This is extremely my poo poo. I want a real punchy freeblade.
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May 29, 2018 18:39
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Between the castellan and cheap armigers seems like you actually can take 3 knights at a thousand points and win.
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May 29, 2018 18:50
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Jesus. Those guys are scary. I need to get my loving Deathwatch Falchion painted, because my Primaris boys can't efficiently deal with guys like that.
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May 29, 2018 19:04
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:A Warlord Titan is OP until you find out it costs 4000 points. Its been changed to 6000 in chapter approved.
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May 29, 2018 19:18
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:A Warlord Titan is OP until you find out it costs 4000 points. I thought the warlord was 6k? Apparently at some point this summer my local store will gang up on one and fight it
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May 29, 2018 19:20
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"This model seems overpowered" says the man who has not seen the points cost. Dude, conscripts were OP when they were 3 points and not 4.
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May 29, 2018 19:33
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Thanqol posted:"This model seems overpowered" says the man who has not seen the points cost. I just said they seem and asked for clarification 
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May 29, 2018 19:37
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Conscripts were op when they were 50 man blobs that we're 3ppm and immune to morale. if they were still 50 man immune to morale blobs they would be worth every bit of 4 ppm and more.
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May 29, 2018 19:38
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Felime posted:Conscripts were op when they were 50 man blobs that we're 3ppm and immune to morale. if they were still 50 man immune to morale blobs they would be worth every bit of 4 ppm and more. See also: Cultists, which are 4ppm but can infiltrate, hit on 3s with +1 to wound, get a 5+ FNP and then when you manage to kill some the Chaos player can regenerate the whole loving unit for a trivial cost How GW nerfed Conscripts into the ground inside of 10 minutes but has failed to notice the Cultist problem for a solid year is beyond me
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May 29, 2018 19:41
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There's very little point in even talking about if things will be overpowered or not when the codex hasn't been released yet and we're missing definite information about loadout options, points costs, available strategems etc. The guns looks scary and the models seem more fragile than I expected. That's about the only answer that anybody can give to a question like that right now.
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May 29, 2018 19:43
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Corrode posted:See also: Cultists, which are 4ppm but can infiltrate, hit on 3s with +1 to wound, get a 5+ FNP and then when you manage to kill some the Chaos player can regenerate the whole loving unit for a trivial cost Sounds like you should take more Autocannons. Cultists get poo poo done. They got poo poo done in 7th and they get it done in 8th. Would you have us field Chaos Space Marines, have you no mercy?
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May 29, 2018 19:47
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Where are the Chaos Primaris lol
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May 29, 2018 19:49
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Corrode posted:See also: Cultists, which are 4ppm but can infiltrate, hit on 3s with +1 to wound, get a 5+ FNP and then when you manage to kill some the Chaos player can regenerate the whole loving unit for a trivial cost they have in that you can't tide of traitors over and over anymore, it's just far from enough
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May 29, 2018 19:56
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Milotic posted:Sounds like you should take more Autocannons. Cultists get poo poo done. They got poo poo done in 7th and they get it done in 8th. Would you have us field Chaos Space Marines, have you no mercy? Realtalk, I think there's two angles to the problems that MEQ statline stuff has right now. One is the points cost - 13ppm is just way too high for what is not actually a very impressive statline in the modern game, and in particular the defensive stats are no good when so much else out there has hit modifiers or non-trivial invulns. The second is unit sizes. They made a step in the right direction with capping Conscripts at 30, but Cultists need to go the same way. Tbh I'd even go down to 20. Unit size as a multiplier in effectiveness is just ridiculous - you get way more bang for your back dropping Prescience, Veterans of the Long War, Delightful Agonies and Endless Cacophonies on 40 Cultists for 160pts than you do for the equivalent cost of Chaos Space Marines. That was the same deal with Conscripts - ordering 50 dudes to FRFSRF was much more effective than ordering 10, even with the difference in BS, and making 50 scripts immune to Morale mattered way more than 10 Guardsmen who would probably be dead anyway. A 20-man cap would do a lot to mitigate that effectiveness.
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May 29, 2018 19:59
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Forums Terrorist posted:they have in that you can't tide of traitors over and over anymore, it's just far from enough The fact that the Valhallan and Tyranid equivalents are worse and cost you reinforcement points but Tide of Traitors (and I think the Ad Mech one?) don't is really funny.
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May 29, 2018 20:04
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Genghis Cohen posted:Sorry, the volcano cannon is the Shadowsword armament? If so it’s worth noting that it’s on a lower BS so the comparison isn’t quite that jarring. Still interesting though, what are the stats on it? Volcano Cannon: 3d3 S16 Attacks, AP 5, 2d6 damage. Assuming BS4 against a Land Raider that's an average of 17.5 wounds. Volcano Lance: d6 S14 Attacks, AP 4, 6 damage. Assuming BS3 against a Land Raider that's an average of 9.3 wounds. So slightly less than half as effective. Plus the Shadowsword has a ton of options to make it even more devastating, such as putting a Trojan Support Vehicle next to it that lets it reroll misses for 98 points. Or filling out a Super Heavy Detachment so they can get the Regimental Doctrine.
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May 29, 2018 20:07
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Corrode posted:Realtalk, I think there's two angles to the problems that MEQ statline stuff has right now. One is the points cost - 13ppm is just way too high for what is not actually a very impressive statline in the modern game, and in particular the defensive stats are no good when so much else out there has hit modifiers or non-trivial invulns. The second is unit sizes. They made a step in the right direction with capping Conscripts at 30, but Cultists need to go the same way. Tbh I'd even go down to 20. Unit size as a multiplier in effectiveness is just ridiculous - you get way more bang for your back dropping Prescience, Veterans of the Long War, Delightful Agonies and Endless Cacophonies on 40 Cultists for 160pts than you do for the equivalent cost of Chaos Space Marines. That was the same deal with Conscripts - ordering 50 dudes to FRFSRF was much more effective than ordering 10, even with the difference in BS, and making 50 scripts immune to Morale mattered way more than 10 Guardsmen who would probably be dead anyway. A 20-man cap would do a lot to mitigate that effectiveness. Yes, but if you buy more models they can make more moneys
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May 29, 2018 20:08
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I don’t think the new knights look OP, assuming that 650 points is around the minimum you can get one for, but just like fully tricked out baneblades and shadowswords they’re going to create very binary games, cause basically you have three options: * Knight player takes turn 1 and obliterates enough of the enemy anti tank that it becomes functionally indestructible. * Player 2 gets turn 1 and can drop or double degrade the knight, at which point they’ve sufficiently crippled its output that it’s hard for the knight player to win, * Either the knight whiffs or player 2 can’t drop it in a turn, at which point you actually have a game. Of these, only option 3 is really a good game of 40k. Mind you, I do like that the variance on the bigly shooting knight’s output is quite high - the volcano gun only being d6 rather than loving 3d3 like the Shadowsword gives it a lot more chance of having a bad turn and whiffing out. I do also wonder how different it will play out with an army of a bigly knight, 1-2 normal knights and 2-6 armigers, because all of that needs AT to go after it. Corrode posted:Realtalk, I think there's two angles to the problems that MEQ statline stuff has right now. One is the points cost - 13ppm is just way too high for what is not actually a very impressive statline in the modern game, and in particular the defensive stats are no good when so much else out there has hit modifiers or non-trivial invulns. The second is unit sizes. They made a step in the right direction with capping Conscripts at 30, but Cultists need to go the same way. Tbh I'd even go down to 20. Unit size as a multiplier in effectiveness is just ridiculous - you get way more bang for your back dropping Prescience, Veterans of the Long War, Delightful Agonies and Endless Cacophonies on 40 Cultists for 160pts than you do for the equivalent cost of Chaos Space Marines. That was the same deal with Conscripts - ordering 50 dudes to FRFSRF was much more effective than ordering 10, even with the difference in BS, and making 50 scripts immune to Morale mattered way more than 10 Guardsmen who would probably be dead anyway. A 20-man cap would do a lot to mitigate that effectiveness. Massive units and buff powers/strats is definitely a problem, the fact that huge units can snake back into auras is also a challenge. There‘s also very few stuff in core infantry that seems “correct” - everything seems to be slightly too good or slightly too expensive. Either all of the following need a 1 point hike: Guardsmen Cultists Boyz Kabalites Fire warriors Termagaunts Bloodletters Plaguebearers Tsangors Or all of the following need a 1-2 point drop Space marines CSMs Dire avengers Guardians (maybe) Rubrics Death guard It’s like what - sisters, genestealers, intercessors, admech and necron warriors that are about right? I’d be fascinated to see what happened if you implemented one of the changes above.
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May 29, 2018 20:11
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https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/xk7q97gb Found the collection of LGT best army stuff. No direct links to lists but w/e it's a start. e: Kane Foster got 9th pure Drukhari, from what I found his list was: Battalion Detachment, Prophets of Flesh HQ 1: Urien Rakarth HQ 2: Haem Troop 1-3: Wrack x5 Elite 1: Grots x5 HS 1-3: Talos x8 (Stinger pods) Spearhead Detachment, Kabal of the Black Heart HQ 1: Archon HS 1-3: Ravager x3 (Dissies) DT 1: Raider with Dark Lance Next best Drukhari list (Mark Crombleholme, 25th) was similar with 9 Talos (Haywire blasters) and KoBH Spearhead but had 3x mandrakes. JIZZ DENOUEMENT fucked around with this message at 20:30 on May 29, 2018 |
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May 29, 2018 20:22
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One_Wing posted:Massive units and buff powers/strats is definitely a problem, the fact that huge units can snake back into auras is also a challenge. There‘s also very few stuff in core infantry that seems “correct” - everything seems to be slightly too good or slightly too expensive. I think genestealers could go up a point
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May 29, 2018 20:30
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One_Wing posted:Either all of the following need a 1 point hike: I think I'd move all of that except Kabalites up 1pt, and drop the other bits down 1pt (except Guardians). Kabalites are cheap because DE are insanely fragile. I know I'm biased by playing them heavily, but I really do think DE are tuned about right as it stands - MEQs need to be more durable against them, but otherwise it's a really well-balanced book. JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/xk7q97gb This is basically right except that 2 of the Talos were in a unit by themselves and had 4x macroscalpels. If you're just searching for "Drukhari" btw, a few of us had other keywords - officially I'm down as Kabal of the Black Heart because I didn't know how the app worked and didn't realise you could stop a level up from that. That means 2nd Drukhari is actually the guy in 24th.
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May 29, 2018 20:34
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thesurlyspringKAA posted:I think genestealers could go up a point I ummed and ah’ed on them - they were nearly on the up a point list and i took them off. They’re in an odd place - if they could solely expect to go against things on the “down a point” list they probably would need a hike, but their lack of a save above 5++ means the other infantry that’s too cheap murders them very effectively. I’d rather see the acidmaws pick up a cost.
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May 29, 2018 20:36
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/xk7q97gb Oh hey Mike got 3rd place. Good on him.
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May 29, 2018 20:38
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Oh hey Mike got 3rd place. Good on him. Even better - once the soft scores came in he finished 1st overall. The full and mostly now correct results are here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DIRs_CZsfrKfBDelZa_tVUrlkSgyk-Koevd-wQH1RrU/edit?usp=sharing
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May 29, 2018 20:39
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Corrode posted:I think I'd move all of that except Kabalites up 1pt, and drop the other bits down 1pt (except Guardians). Kabalites are cheap because DE are insanely fragile. I know I'm biased by playing them heavily, but I really do think DE are tuned about right as it stands - MEQs need to be more durable against them, but otherwise it's a really well-balanced book. I don’t think you can put those other things up without putting kabalites up too is the thing, and i do have to side eye guardians costing 2 more points than kabalites - though admittedly the fact you can take them in blocks of 20 starts to give them the cultist problem at 7 points. I guess i’d settle for dire avengers coming down two points maybe - 12 points is starting to look really dumb in the world of 6pt kabalites and 7pt fire warriors.
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May 29, 2018 20:42
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TheBigAristotle posted:Where are the Chaos Primaris lol I wish they'd do this. Just fluff it out as Chaos Marines being all chaosy and tough. Each one being a warrior with millenia of experience and all that. The standard Space Marine stat line just isn't that interesting right now.
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May 29, 2018 20:43
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The problem of Kabalite Warriors is the Venom, not the Kabalite Warriors. It gives them all a -1 to hit, Fly, and an invulnerable save, as well as 6 ablative wounds. When Kabalite Warriors are on foot, they get mulched.
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May 29, 2018 20:51
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It sounds weird and maybe bad but what if SM power armor ignored the first -1 of any weapon's AP? Would that be a solution?
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May 29, 2018 20:52
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One_Wing posted:I don’t think you can put those other things up without putting kabalites up too is the thing, and i do have to side eye guardians costing 2 more points than kabalites - though admittedly the fact you can take them in blocks of 20 starts to give them the cultist problem at 7 points. I guess i’d settle for dire avengers coming down two points maybe - 12 points is starting to look really dumb in the world of 6pt kabalites and 7pt fire warriors. Guardians are better thanks to the stratagems and psychic powers though. Like next to each other then sure, Kabalites are better, but Kabalites don't get Guide/Fortune/Protect/Doom*/Jinx*/Reveal* (starred for soup-possible options) or Black Guardians. Which reminds me, I rewrote my 2k the other day and didn't even consider just dumping in a jetbike Farseer and some Rangers. I should see how that stacks up compared to trading the Hellions for two Razorwings and a third squad of Reavers.
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May 29, 2018 20:52
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I'm debating if I want to take part in the Dicehammer tournament in September here in So Cal. I have Primaris Ultramarines & Custdoes. Part of me knows i'm going to get wrecked and not have a good time, but part of me also wants to just do it for the fun of it. Anyone else thinking of going?
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May 29, 2018 20:53
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