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300 laid it out pretty clearly who's telling the story (The Spartans), so of course they're the Aryan supermen while Persians are the race-mixing slave-havers. I don't remember if the comic specifically uses the unreliable narrator, but ffs the Spartans in the comic are fighting naked half the time. It's meant to be absurd because look who's telling the story. Frankly 300 can be considered historically accurate, because it's pretty much exactly how ancient Sparta would tell the story.
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May 29, 2018 22:28
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Except for the part where Leonidas lets the hunchback live instead of pushing him off a cliff. Even Miller conceded that was bullshit.
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May 29, 2018 22:31
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K. Waste posted:Except for the part where Leonidas lets the hunchback live instead of pushing him off a cliff. Even Miller conceded that was bullshit. His mercy gets them all killed. Dilios is too respectful of Leonidas to openly castigate him for it, but it's lingering there as one of the morals of the story.
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May 29, 2018 22:34
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SciFiDownBeat posted:Uhhhh no. I would be willing to buy that [300 is like Starship Troopers] if the Persians were depicted more sympathetically instead of as amoral literal demons and body horror monstrosities. The alien bugs in Starship Troopers are never depicted sympathetically.
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May 29, 2018 22:54
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Sir Kodiak posted:His mercy gets them all killed. Dilios is too respectful of Leonidas to openly castigate him for it, but it's lingering there as one of the morals of the story. Leonidas gets a moral "victory" though by telling the guy that he hopes he lives forever which makes him super ashamed of his traitorous nature even though Xerxes gave him a sick wizard hat.
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May 29, 2018 23:21
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Neo Rasa posted:Leonidas gets a moral "victory" though by telling the guy that he hopes he lives forever which makes him super ashamed of his traitorous nature even though Xerxes gave him a sick wizard hat. Yeah, definitely. What I’m saying is that Leonidas’s deviance from perfect Spartan philosophy is recognized by the story and doesn’t go unpunished. It has a place in Dilios’s narrative.
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May 29, 2018 23:23
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basic hitler posted:can you elaborate on what this means for a curious phillistine who doesn't want to dive into truffaut's beliefs to find out or w/e Samuel Clemens posted:I assume Schwarzwald is referring to Truffaut's famous statement that "there's no such thing as an anti-war movie", because any visual depiction of combat will inevitably end up glorifying it. I'm not sure how this relates to The Fountainhead though, unless you want to argue that there's no way to satirise Objectivism without simultaneously putting it on a pedestal. It's not so much that I don't think you couldn't satirize Objectivism without making it sound good, so much that Objectivists are fully aware that the ideology is callous and selfish and won't be offended when it's called out as such. Snyder's method generally is, for all it's style, to depict things plainly and let the audience connect the dots themselves. His Fountainhead will likely portray Objectivists as a bunch of assholes, which will lead to actual Objectivists saying "  he's got us pegged," and to a bunch of other folks to say, "I can't believe he's pro-rear end in a top hat!"I probably shouldn't have compared it with Truffaut's statement. It's a different situation.
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May 29, 2018 23:24
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Neo Rasa posted:Leonidas gets a moral "victory" though by telling the guy that he hopes he lives forever which makes him super ashamed of his traitorous nature even though Xerxes gave him a sick wizard hat. "Yes! I want it all! Wealth! Women! And one more thing... I want a uniform!" This movie is loving hysterical.
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May 29, 2018 23:30
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Sir Kodiak posted:Yeah, definitely. What I’m saying is that Leonidas’s deviance from perfect Spartan philosophy is recognized by the story and doesn’t go unpunished. It has a place in Dilios’s narrative. Oh yeah absolutely, I just found that to be an extra humorous detail that's like a textbook mythical propaganda: K. Waste posted:"Yes! I want it all! Wealth! Women! And one more thing... I want a uniform!" He realizes he's literally better off dead than wearing any uniform that isn't the Spartan shield and deserved to die all along for not being able to hold one right. Leonidas was "evil" for letting him live is carried through to the end of the movie. I mean it's easy to see why a lot of conservative dumbasses take the movie 100% at face value. This generation's Full Metal Jacket. I remember walking out of the theater and one of my friends was ecstatic about it, and remarked it was like a recruitment video for the Iraq war. According to my friends a few years later he became a proud and loud white supremacist like two years later (I severed a bit before then because the person was just an rear end in a top hat in general too often). Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 23:47 on May 29, 2018 |
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May 29, 2018 23:43
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I'm willing to buy 300 is kind of like Commando, but I am not willing to buy it's kind of like Starship Troopers.
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May 29, 2018 23:49
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I didn't "get" Robocop as a satire until around the mid-90s. Not ashamed to say it. Until then I took it as a really kick rear end, brutal action movie (and it is).
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May 29, 2018 23:52
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I didn't "get" Robocop as a satire until around the mid-90s. Not ashamed to say it. Until then I took it as a really kick rear end, brutal action movie (and it is). Yeah, it works on a couple of levels. It's not unlike Ghostbusters: When you're 5 years old, it's a movie about these dudes with the most badass backpacks imaginable, and they save the world from a demon. When you're older, you realize it's a comedy. As you get even older, you realize it's an absolutely brilliant comedy about three nuclear-powered con artists who stumble rear end-backwards into saving the world.
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May 29, 2018 23:57
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Ghostbusters is a sex comedy though.
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May 30, 2018 00:50
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The alien bugs in Starship Troopers are never depicted sympathetically. The scene where NPH finds out they're afraid
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May 30, 2018 00:54
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I would watch a Zack Snyder Excalibur or Starship Trooper film
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May 30, 2018 01:01
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Zack Snyder presents The Master Sword
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May 30, 2018 01:03
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syscall girl posted:The scene where NPH finds out they're afraid Vervoeven also said the whole asteroid strike on Buenos Aires wasn't a bug meteor at all, it was just a random natural disaster that the humans turned into an excuse to go kill the bugs.
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May 30, 2018 01:13
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Cythereal posted:Vervoeven also said the whole asteroid strike on Buenos Aires wasn't a bug meteor at all, it was just a random natural disaster that the humans turned into an excuse to go kill the bugs. They kinda hint at this with the "Fort Joseph Smith" thing.
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May 30, 2018 01:19
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It's not even subtext - it's the literal text of the movie. I don't have time to post an 8 page rant about Lacan to convey that fact, so just take my word for it.
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May 30, 2018 01:20
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Basically the only lesson you learn comparing 300 to ST is that if you put dudes dressing as Nazis at the end of your movie, it will eventually be hailed as a satirical masterpiece that people were just too dumb to not get; but if you put baby-murder at the BEGINNING people will insist for 12 years that there couldn't possibly be something subversive going on and all the same idiots are actually totally right this time
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May 30, 2018 01:21
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K. Waste posted:Basically the only lesson you learn comparing 300 to ST is that if you put dudes dressing as Nazis at the end of your movie, it will eventually be hailed as a satirical masterpiece that people were just too dumb to not get; but if you put baby-murder at the BEGINNING people will insist for 12 years that there couldn't possibly be something subversive going on and all the same idiots are actually totally right this time A good example of the differences between subverting expectations and being genuinely subversive.
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May 30, 2018 01:30
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lol at asking why 300 doesn't portray the Persians sympathetically when Hollywood constantly and unironically makes movies glorifying the US military and portraying brown-skinned foreigners as inscrutable figurative monsters.
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May 30, 2018 01:32
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Capn Jobe posted:Frankly 300 can be considered historically accurate, because it's pretty much exactly how ancient Sparta would tell the story. Large chunks of it are straight-up copied from Herodotus' history.
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May 30, 2018 01:43
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The real kicker is that the actual Persians were ethnically white. Persians are like the OG white people.
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May 30, 2018 01:50
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What, Xerxes wasn't gold in real life?
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May 30, 2018 01:56
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:MoviePass just sent me this email, which is a pretty good representation of the hellscape we live in that is 2018 lol e: ugh Snyder talk let's talk about Moviepass turning into a subprime lender in a futile effort to forestall the most obvious ending for their completely unworkable business strategy instead.
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May 30, 2018 02:26
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White people weren't really invented until the 17th century. Persians were pretty neat. They allowed women to own and inherit property and even hold some offices and lead armies, they had religious freedom, and slavery was heavily limited since it was seen as being sinful under Zoroastrianism. Meanwhile Sparta was a military junta that only functioned because the huge slave underclass did all the actual work and although women had a lot of rights compared to the other Greek states that's only because in the other Greek states women were barely seen as being human. Not that this really matters to the film since it is based on a comic that is based on a 1962 movie which is very loosely based on sorta historical events.
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May 30, 2018 02:40
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K. Waste posted:Basically the only lesson you learn comparing 300 to ST is that if you put dudes dressing as Nazis at the end of your movie, it will eventually be hailed as a satirical masterpiece that people were just too dumb to not get; but if you put baby-murder at the BEGINNING people will insist for 12 years that there couldn't possibly be something subversive going on and all the same idiots are actually totally right this time I've made this argument before, but by this standard any movie with [bad value] is satire because [bad value] is bad.
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May 30, 2018 02:40
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porfiria posted:I've made this argument before, but by this standard any movie with [bad value] is satire because [bad value] is bad. Also, if any movie has a unreliable narrator, you can't complain about any part of it, since that can be placed on the narrator's unreliable telling. Hence, The Lone Ranger is a flawless film.
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May 30, 2018 02:54
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Timby posted:We fetishize corporate moguls so much nowadays that I wouldn't be surprised if at some point that RoboCop becomes even more prescient and some school in Michigan gets renamed to Lee Iacocca Middle School after he carks it. I'm hoping we don't invade Iran, mostly because I don't want to justify the Robocop remake's existence in any way
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May 30, 2018 02:56
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SleepCousinDeath posted:Max Landis is worse I feel like I'm the only one whose had relatively pleasant personal encounters with him but it was only like twice in passing and even the people close to him then hate him now so 
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May 30, 2018 02:58
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A.I. Borgland Corp posted:The only minority villain I can recall in a Snyder film is the trafficker guy from BvS but he might have been white, I can't really remember, I think he was Hispanic, or maybe that was just his victims. 300 is literally a freak show of what stormfront calls mud people. The only one who comes out looking good is Peter Mensah because he's smooth like hot fudge in an artisinal ice cream shop. And he's known for getting kicked down the well
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May 30, 2018 03:05
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porfiria posted:I've made this argument before, but by this standard any movie with [bad value] is satire because [bad value] is bad. The actual problem is that any film is either "bad value" or "satire" based not on a consideration of narrative content through its form of presentation, but on presuppositions of apparent intent or depth. It's merely conventional now to say that the balderdash and over-the-top quality of Starship Troopers is clearly satire that makes explicit reference to real propaganda, whereas with 300, people make the same exact observation that it's balderdash and over-the-top and clearly makes explicit reference to real propaganda, but conclude that there is no relationship between form and political content; that the form of the latter is the result of mere superficiality and a mistake on the part of the filmmakers in betraying their honest fascist and xenophobic message. It's like when SciFiDownBeat notes that some of the Persians in the movie are presented as literal monsters and demons (conspicuously leaving out the Spartans who are also literal monsters living in a temple on a hill raping little girls), even though, obviously, most contemporary reactionary cinema are content to just depict radical Islamists and other militant groups as bad people with weapons. 300 is clearly referencing something, but it's obviously not Frank Miller's comic. Like Starship Troopers, it's making reference to tropes of propaganda that are identifiably American but also anachronistic/non-contemporary. But, unfortunately, memes impede critical reading. They convince themselves that there's something really "obvious" about Verhoeven referencing the Why We Fight films, but an aesthetic being explicit is not the same as its political content being obvious. There is nothing obvious about ST, you have to not only know what you're looking at (ex: a ref. to WWII propaganda) and also the ability to interrogate it critically (ex: Why We Fight, despite being Allied propaganda, is being conflated in the film with fascism).
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May 30, 2018 03:11
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Shageletic posted:lol what's Yanny Road?
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May 30, 2018 03:25
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K. Waste posted:It's like when SciFiDownBeat notes that some of the Persians in the movie are presented as literal monsters and demons (conspicuously leaving out the Spartans who are also literal monsters living in a temple on a hill raping little girls), even though, obviously, most contemporary reactionary cinema are content to just depict radical Islamists and other militant groups as bad people with weapons. 300 is clearly referencing something, but it's obviously not Frank Miller's comic. Like Starship Troopers, it's making reference to tropes of propaganda that are identifiably American but also anachronistic/non-contemporary. I mean, the monsters on the temple hill are filthy traitors and the Persians are also depicted as a literal faceless horde but hey, don't jerk yourself off too hard. Was the creepy rape scene in Miller's comic or was that Snyder? Cause that happens in Watchmen. And Sucker Punch. You know, maybe The Fountainhead is perfect for him.
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May 30, 2018 03:40
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:MoviePass just sent me this email, which is a pretty good representation of the hellscape we live in that is 2018 see 5 more movies using moviepass
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May 30, 2018 03:46
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Alan Smithee posted:I feel like I'm the only one whose had relatively pleasant personal encounters with him but it was only like twice in passing and even the people close to him then hate him now so oh holy poo poo, you've known him in the past? can you confirm or deny that he once made an absolute jackass of himself and got  'd by a toddler at a nerf gun fighti once heard that from someone who lived near him and that story brings me joy every time i think about it and i desperately want it to be true
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May 30, 2018 03:47
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I also have second hand accounts of M. Landis that portray him as a chill and cool dude. However, I strongly doubt he is chill and cool all or even most of the time.
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May 30, 2018 03:57
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:oh holy poo poo, you've known him in the past? can you confirm or deny that he once made an absolute jackass of himself and got My memory may be imperfect but I was *there* and the way I actually recall it he let the kid win. I mean he may be an assburger but let's not distort nerf war. Assuming we're talking about the same game of course he did however throw a second event the next year and because the parking situation was bad he told people to go home and the people already there threw a fit because they felt it was unfair to them. Guy I know was the "ringleader" ( I think it was his kid who Max let win too ) and said we're gonna play anyway and max got so buttmad he changed the event to "gently caress (so and so)" and people split off between two camps: "Jesus Christ calm the gently caress down Max" and "HOW DARE YOU OPPOSE THE WILL OF MAX LANDIS SCREENWRITER OF CHRONICLE AND DIRECTOR OF THE DEATH OF SUPERMAN YOUTUBE VIDEO". And nerf war was never had again Oddly enough I never watched Chronicle but I met the australian dude from it through a goonette. Nice dude
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May 30, 2018 03:58
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porfiria posted:I also have second hand accounts of M. Landis that portray him as a chill and cool dude. Max Landis has been accused of sexual assault by several women and apparently used his dad’s influence to hide it
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May 30, 2018 04:00
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