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9-Volt Assault posted:I've got a Greek friend, who is trained as a classicist, who refuses to talk about Alexander the Great and especially the question of whether or not he is Greek. Its a really touchy subject. This post has me curious. If I want to build a repertoire of annoying questions to ask historians, what would the thread recommend? So far I have, "was Alexander the Great Greek?" and, "was the Byzantine Empire Roman (and if not when did it stop)?"
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May 30, 2018 03:20
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have you seen my baby posted:This post has me curious. If I want to build a repertoire of annoying questions to ask historians, what would the thread recommend? Not a historian but my answers are "sorta", "sorta", and "there's no clean dividing line"
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May 30, 2018 03:31
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SlothfulCobra posted:I'm not even sure what category of thing the concept of greek/not greek would be back then. I'm a little embedded in the modern idea of nationalism. Closest I can think of is the Commonwealth of Nations. A bunch of independent groups of people with related histories and mostly the same language and religion. Maybe it was like how modern mainland chinese conceptualize being Chinese? From reading the China thread in GBS, it seems that mainlanders view being Chinese as looking and acting like an ethnic Han. Am I wrong to conceptualize Hellenic culture in antiquity as having echoes with modern mainland chinese culture?
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May 30, 2018 04:07
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It's not a good comparison. The Chinese conception rests entirely on modern race theory, which didn't exist in the ancient world. Greeks were people who were native Greek speakers and engaged with Greek culture, like the religion. There was no Greek nation to speak of, or a Greek race. The idea of Greek-ness that's being reflected with the dumb Greece/Macedonia argument was a construction of Greek nationalists in the 19th century in resistance to the Ottomans. Someone from Athens in 400 BC would have no idea what the gently caress a modern Greek nationalist was talking about.
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May 30, 2018 04:11
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Just look up various nationalist/irredentist claims and find a way to ask a question which either assumes something in bad faith or which can't be answered without forcing them to choose a side. Either one should annoy a historian.
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May 30, 2018 04:11
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Grand Fromage posted:It's not a good comparison. The Chinese conception rests entirely on modern race theory, which didn't exist in the ancient world. Greeks were people who were native Greek speakers and engaged with Greek culture, like the religion. There was no Greek nation to speak of, or a Greek race. The idea of Greek-ness that's being reflected with the dumb Greece/Macedonia argument was a construction of Greek nationalists in the 19th century in resistance to the Ottomans. Someone from Athens in 400 BC would have no idea what the gently caress a modern Greek nationalist was talking about. And in any event, modern Greece includes most of ancient Macedonia, as well as a bunch of places full of people nobody had ever considered Greek, and doesn't include a poo poo load of what ancient Greeks would definitely consider Greece (a bunch of cities in Asia minor).
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May 30, 2018 05:06
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I thought Epirotes were in a similar position of being semi-Greek? What part of modern Greece wasn't considered Greek in antiquity?
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May 30, 2018 05:15
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:I thought Epirotes were in a similar position of being semi-Greek? What part of modern Greece wasn't considered Greek in antiquity? You have to keep in mind that the Greeks thought about cities, peoples and hinterlands rather than strict territories. So the geographic expanse of what we call Epirus and Macedon contained people on various parts of the spectrum of Greekness (they only used Greek names sometimes, for example, like Paonia). Also depends when, since when people say 'Ancient Greece' they're usually meaning 'before Alexander', since Philip and Alexander did a lot to consolidate the northernmost part of what is now modern Greece in their time. And yes Epirus gets tagged with being a kind of rustic semi-Greek place, but less so than Macedon, I think. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 05:23 on May 30, 2018 |
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May 30, 2018 05:21
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Grand Fromage posted:It's not a good comparison. The Chinese conception rests entirely on modern race theory, which didn't exist in the ancient world. Greeks were people who were native Greek speakers and engaged with Greek culture, like the religion. There was no Greek nation to speak of, or a Greek race. The idea of Greek-ness that's being reflected with the dumb Greece/Macedonia argument was a construction of Greek nationalists in the 19th century in resistance to the Ottomans. Someone from Athens in 400 BC would have no idea what the gently caress a modern Greek nationalist was talking about. I dunno about modern times and I expect it's different, but the classical conception of Chinese-ness seems a lot more comparable to the ancient Greek. There was pretty much nothing ethnic about it back then, really the opposite--you can look at the Koreans and Vietnamese at various points claiming to be quite literally "Chinese," (like the terms they used translate verbatim, for Vietnam especially) but they meant it purely in terms of civilization, often consciously noting their ethnic distinctiveness at the same time as making that claim. Or just today (funnily enough) I read about a comment from a monk (Seng You) in 6th century China saying that the Central Plains, having fallen under the rule of nomads, are now essentially barbarian; in spite of the people there having been the core of China for thousands of years and the region being the birthplace of all the ancient dynasties, they had lost their Chinese-ness. Instead, he asserts, China is now the south--the region and the people that were once completely outside of Chinese civilization. Being Chinese is the civilization and the ritual and poo poo, and what people that happens to apply to at a given time doesn't matter so much. You can be a central part of Chinese civilization and lose it, or you can be part of an outside group but get accepted in.
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May 30, 2018 06:00
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have you seen my baby posted:This post has me curious. If I want to build a repertoire of annoying questions to ask historians, what would the thread recommend? The historicity of Jesus of Nazareth is a particularly prickly pear.
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May 30, 2018 06:49
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Just as long as we can all agree that the use of the name "Macedonian" by the "Slavs of Skopje" constitutes a "felony", an "act of plagiarism" against the Greek people. By calling themselves "Macedonians" the Slavs are "stealing" a Greek name; they are "embezzling" Greek cultural heritage; they are "falsifying" Greek history.
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May 30, 2018 08:39
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Disinterested posted:and doesn't include a poo poo load of what ancient Greeks would definitely consider Greece (a bunch of cities in Asia minor). To be fair it wasn't that long ago that a bunch of Greeks considered said cities should be part of Greece, something something Megali Idea etc
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May 30, 2018 11:38
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SlothfulCobra posted:Closest I can think of is the Commonwealth of Nations. A bunch of independent groups of people with related histories and mostly the same language and religion. Not really. Bear in mind that the Commonwealth isn't just the white countries, and I'm not sure 'was conquered by Britain' is a Greek level of related history between say India and Lesotho.
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May 30, 2018 11:48
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feedmegin posted:Not really. Bear in mind that the Commonwealth isn't just the white countries, and I'm not sure 'was conquered by Britain' is a Greek level of related history between say India and Lesotho. I think you'll find the primary religion of the Commonwealth is cricket.
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May 30, 2018 13:14
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sebzilla posted:I think you'll find the primary religion of the Commonwealth is cricket. Canada would like a word with you.
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May 30, 2018 14:21
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Canada was sold from the UK to the US back in the 40s.
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May 30, 2018 14:31
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Ynglaur posted:Canada would like a word with you. Hockey is basically cricket on ice... but with more violence, better rules, a nicer prize, a cooler stick and is much more entertaining. fishmech posted:Canada was sold from the UK to the US back in the 40s. We're basically americans, but with healthcare. And a sense of humility.
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May 30, 2018 15:04
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The sheer amount of bragging Canadians do about how polite and humble they are kinda undermines the message. 
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May 30, 2018 15:45
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Canada: The Heirs of Atlantis.
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May 30, 2018 16:05
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have you seen my baby posted:This post has me curious. If I want to build a repertoire of annoying questions to ask historians, what would the thread recommend? "What ethnicity was the ancient egyptians?"
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May 30, 2018 16:24
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hailthefish posted:The sheer amount of bragging Canadians do about how polite and humble they are kinda undermines the message. I think it's mostly their way of pointing out how rude and conceited Americans are by comparison
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May 30, 2018 16:49
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hailthefish posted:The sheer amount of bragging Canadians do about how polite and humble they are kinda undermines the message. I'm sorry. 
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May 30, 2018 17:06
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hailthefish posted:The sheer amount of bragging Canadians do about how polite and humble they are kinda undermines the message. The English do the same thing. They're constantly going on about how self deprecating they are and are clearly very proud of it. It's like the concept of humble bragging founded a culture.
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May 30, 2018 17:32
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OctaviusBeaver posted:The English do the same thing. They're constantly going on about how self deprecating they are and are clearly very proud of it. It's like the concept of humble bragging founded a culture. People on the English-speaking internet who aren't american get self-conscious and performative about their backgrounds.
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May 30, 2018 17:35
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OctaviusBeaver posted:The English do the same thing. They're constantly going on about how self deprecating they are and are clearly very proud of it. It's like the concept of humble bragging founded a culture. Yeah? Well Americans are fat and noisy.
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May 30, 2018 18:25
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have you seen my baby posted:This post has me curious. If I want to build a repertoire of annoying questions to ask historians, what would the thread recommend? reminds me of this: https://imgur.com/gallery/lnOAS
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May 30, 2018 18:56
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fantastic in plastic posted:Just as long as we can all agree that the use of the name "Macedonian" by the "Slavs of Skopje" constitutes a "felony", an "act of plagiarism" against the Greek people. By calling themselves "Macedonians" the Slavs are "stealing" a Greek name; they are "embezzling" Greek cultural heritage; they are "falsifying" Greek history. There are no Greeks, there are just Western Turks.
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May 30, 2018 19:23
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OctaviusBeaver posted:The English do the same thing. They're constantly going on about how self deprecating they are and are clearly very proud of it. It's true, we are terrible people.
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May 30, 2018 19:27
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feedmegin posted:It's true, we are terrible people. That's why Mel Gibson keeps having to battle your people through time and space.
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May 30, 2018 19:28
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have you seen my baby posted:This post has me curious. If I want to build a repertoire of annoying questions to ask historians, what would the thread recommend? "How did China manage to maintain five thousand years of unbroken culture, and why didn't Europe manage the same?" "Why did Western Europe manage to civilize itself while the rest of the world didn't?" The trick is to bake the irritating part into an unspoken assumption that underlies the whole question, and if you want to be REALLY annoying say "Yeah, but..." and then repeat your question when they try to point out that said assumption is flawed.
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May 30, 2018 19:32
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Zopotantor posted:There are no Greeks, there are just Western Turks. There are no Turks, just Western Mongols, who are Eastern Finns.
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May 30, 2018 19:42
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Marxist-Jezzinist posted:There are no Turks, just Western Mongols, who are Eastern Finns. All of which are Koreans
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May 30, 2018 19:50
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WoodrowSkillson posted:All of which are Koreans Are you proposing that the Finno-Korean hyperwar was, in fact, a civil war?
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May 30, 2018 19:55
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Tomn posted:"How did China manage to maintain five thousand years of unbroken culture, and why didn't Europe manage the same?" Just answer one of those questions with the other. "China maintained five thousand years of unbroken culture because, unlike Western Europe, they didn't civilize themselves."
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May 30, 2018 19:56
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just trawl r/history for discussion topics.
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May 31, 2018 00:28
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Grand Fromage posted:I think you're conflating "not supposed to" and "didn't", there. Yeah, I'm "not supposed to" get hosed up on vanilla extract and get into a fist fight with my uncle Magnus because I hurled on his dog Mavis. Don't mean I don't.
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May 31, 2018 10:42
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:Are you proposing that the Finno-Korean hyperwar was, in fact, a civil war? Blasphemy.
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May 31, 2018 10:47
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Two questions. So could you have say a black Greek dude in ancient Greek thought? Are there any recorded examples? And Did Macedonians wear pants?
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May 31, 2018 11:09
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I read a little bit about ideas of "race" in ancient Greece recently https://aeon.co/essays/when-homer-envisioned-achilles-did-he-see-a-black-man http://pages.vassar.edu/pharos/2018...oward-africans/
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May 31, 2018 11:14
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Something that came up in a different thread: Could you smelt/work bronze if you were limited to seasoned wood as a fuel (not charcoal) ? How much of a pain in the rear end would it be?
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May 31, 2018 11:17
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