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yeah, something about this arc feels like the death of Endeavor is coming
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Jun 1, 2018 19:37
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Well, somebody has to die if Gang Orca is going to reclaim his rightful place in the Top Ten.
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Jun 1, 2018 19:49
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Yeah I'm not on board with an endeavor redemption arc
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Jun 1, 2018 19:59
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Carlosologist posted:yeah, something about this arc feels like the death of Endeavor is coming Either him or Hawks. I glanced over someone saying the latter represents Icarus and now I can't get that theory out of my head.
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Jun 1, 2018 20:03
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Endeavor is almost certainly going to get redeemed and forgiven and probably live because that's seemingly what happens in WSJ to horrifically abusive parents
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Jun 1, 2018 20:26
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What's wrong with Endeaver being redeemed? As long as it happens in a natural and believable way I have no issue with it. I'm way more interested in the story of a flawed man working to make up for his past mistakes than having him just being a jerk.
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Jun 1, 2018 20:56
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symbolic posted:Either him or Hawks. I glanced over someone saying the latter represents Icarus and now I can't get that theory out of my head. Hawk's gonna try and taunt/mess with Endeavor to try and get his rantings tanked by getting him to blow up at him or just "nominally" attack him, and is going to end up getting loving murdered by him instead.
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Jun 1, 2018 21:00
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if endeavor acknowledged what he did was wrong, apologized to the people he abused and then worked to change himself, that'd be one thing. his family could then individually decide whether or not to forgive him. instead, he is working on his public image.
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Jun 1, 2018 21:09
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:if endeavor acknowledged what he did was wrong, apologized to the people he abused and then worked to change himself, that'd be one thing. his family could then individually decide whether or not to forgive him. instead, he is working on his public image. We don't know that though. This seems to be something hero's HAVE to show up for. But on the downtime he might actually be trying to make amends with his family. It's also not realistic to have him turn from shithead to best dad ever. So maybe this arc will teach him, that in order to be the true #1 hero, he first has to get his personal life in order.
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Jun 1, 2018 21:16
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Mulderman posted:What's wrong with Endeaver being redeemed? The biggest worry is Todoroki saying "You were the coolest dad" after Endeavor dies and there's no buildup to it.
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Jun 1, 2018 21:52
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i trust MHA to handle it appropriately. more than a lot of shonen mangas its really good at gradual changes in characters/motivations/perceptions.
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Jun 1, 2018 21:56
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like todoroki himself, i really liked that he unleashed the fire vs deku but couldn't bring himself to use it vs bakugo. he had started changing but it wasn't an overnight or overfight things. also now that i think about it did all of those fights happen in 1 day lol
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Jun 1, 2018 21:57
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tbp posted:like todoroki himself, i really liked that he unleashed the fire vs deku but couldn't bring himself to use it vs bakugo. he had started changing but it wasn't an overnight or overfight things. yea
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Jun 1, 2018 22:00
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The end of the make up exam clearly showed us Todoroki is not ready to forgive his dad just yet.
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Jun 1, 2018 22:03
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Mulderman posted:What's wrong with Endeaver being redeemed? Because the redemption of a wife beating child abuser takes a long time and most of the time that wound never heals. They can become a better person but the damage they inflicted on their child is permanent and they will never have a normal parent child relationship. There's also the case where there absolutely are kids in abusive households reading this manga which means you have to be very careful with how you resolve this kind of conflict since it's so real to the readers. Any kind of scenario where Endeavour was a bad person back then but now he does good things so Todoroki should forgive him and love his father would be a tremendously bad idea.
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Jun 1, 2018 22:11
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Also, something that is kinda sorely lacking in these sort of stories is the concept that sometimes you just really need to cut people out of your life. There's a point where forgiving people isn't something you have to, or can do.
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Jun 1, 2018 22:19
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Brought To You By posted:The very first tag for endeavor was for how he had the most number of cleared cases even over All Might. And it was reinforced after all might officially retired that the public just has never had that high an opinion of endeavor despite his accomplishments. And it's attributed to the difference in demeanor and personality. Not just raw physical strength. The danger, size, etc. of cases also matters. Endeavor clearing the most in sheer quantity doesn't mean that he surpassed All Might in effectiveness as a hero, because All Might also did stuff like his debut where he saved all those people from that disaster. The severity of cases he could handle, sometimes on his own, was probably a big, big factor there too, even if the first page seems to say that big incidents count more due to the popularity boost they bring rather than the case itself being valued more. Which seems incredibly silly, weighing each incident the same, but that's a bit of a tangent.
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Jun 1, 2018 22:23
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Eej posted:Because the redemption of a wife beating child abuser takes a long time and most of the time that wound never heals. They can become a better person but the damage they inflicted on their child is permanent and they will never have a normal parent child relationship. I fully get your first point. But Horikoshi has shown multiple times now that Endeaver's redemption isn't going to be a one chapter or hell, a one arc thing. So I don't get the complaints here. People want this to be an actual process and not just a switch that's being flipped. Which is exactly what Horikoshi has been doing. So before calling judgement who not just sit back and see where he takes this. There's plenty of time to bitch when next chapter ends with a family group hug and everything is forgiven. But for now, let's let the guy tell his story. There have also been plenty of families who have dealt with abuse, but managed to put it past them and move on. Thanks to things like therapy. It's very short sighted to deny this manga the chance to tell a story about a family that manged to overcome this, just because sadly it doesn't always pan out like that in the real world. Hell, perhaps a story about redemption, could spark and help some families to overcome this instead. It can work both ways.
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Jun 1, 2018 22:32
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We haven't seen anything redeeming from Endeavor yet, though. He's just been less overtly assholish and framed more sympathetically; he hasn't done anything to even suggest he deserves redemption, so the story seeming to be handling him with nicer gloves and suggesting he's not so bad now is worrisome because it's ignoring what the problem is. Namely, that Endeavor is an abusive rapist who psychologically and physically tortured his family in pursuit of a homegrown eugenics project. Him not being as hostile or dismissive towards others doesn't balance that out.
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Jun 1, 2018 22:51
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Fabricated posted:Also, something that is kinda sorely lacking in these sort of stories is the concept that sometimes you just really need to cut people out of your life. There's a point where forgiving people isn't something you have to, or can do. This would be the best ending to the Shotou/Endeavour conflict that we're definitely not going to get
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Jun 1, 2018 23:08
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I'm waiting to see how this plays out. I'm not sure Horikoshi has the chops to handle such a complicated issue well (My stepdad was abusive and my feelings about him are confusing and lovely), but he's given us enough good story that I'm at least willing to give him a chance. To me the ideal scenario is that Endeavor really does change but Todoroki never forgives him and Endeavor accepts that, with no one guilting Todoroki about it. Forgiveness is a pleasant ideal but society often overemphasizes it and that's the main thing I'm worried about here. It's not always healthy for the person being compelled to forgive. Edit: Honestly I wish that Todoroki's mom was getting more emphasis than Endeavor but considering the manga's focus I can understand why that's not the case. I wish she had been a former hero, then we could have a storyline about her recovery instead of this. Viridiant fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jun 1, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 23:09
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more concerning is that it’s probably not up to Horikoshi, there have been at least two high profile Jump series that tried abusive parent storylines only for the editors to very obviously seize the reins and go “no, filial piety 5ever”
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Jun 1, 2018 23:12
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i really haven't yet picked up on the idea that they've framed him as nicer but i will admit i could have missed that stuff, or am not that good at reading it
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Jun 1, 2018 23:16
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I think it's less that he's nicer (he's not really) and more that it's shown him thinking more about how he's been acting in his role as hero, what with him having that talk with All Might about it. I think that kind of self-reflection is leading people to think that it will begin to extend into his family life and how he's handled that in the past.
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Jun 1, 2018 23:18
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Oxxidation posted:more concerning is that it’s probably not up to Horikoshi, there have been at least two high profile Jump series that tried abusive parent storylines only for the editors to very obviously seize the reins and go “no, filial piety 5ever” Which ones are those?
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Jun 1, 2018 23:21
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Silver2195 posted:Which ones are those? AssClass and, more recently, Shokugeki no Souma I'd imagine. It's basically just become a thing where there's no real reason to give a Jump series the benefit of a doubt on parental abuse issues and it's just better to keep your expectations low.
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Jun 1, 2018 23:25
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Silver2195 posted:Which ones are those? Azami from Souma is so mentally abusive (with some physical abuse) to Erina it emotionally stunts her for years and he loses custody of her. He comes back to try and take over the school and it immediately basically triggers panic attacks in Erina upon merely seeing him again. At the end of one of the most publicly despised arcs of a manga I've seen in a long time she eventually overcomes her fear of him and defeats him with Souma's help...then she thanks him as he silently walks out in a huff. Edit - Some Naruto-esque levels of forgiveness creep. Note that the third page is the same in the Viz translation.   ->  tahnks for mentally abusing me dad, i know you did it for my sake Fabricated fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Jun 2, 2018 |
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Jun 1, 2018 23:39
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Roland Jones posted:The danger, size, etc. of cases also matters. Endeavor clearing the most in sheer quantity doesn't mean that he surpassed All Might in effectiveness as a hero, because All Might also did stuff like his debut where he saved all those people from that disaster. The severity of cases he could handle, sometimes on his own, was probably a big, big factor there too, even if the first page seems to say that big incidents count more due to the popularity boost they bring rather than the case itself being valued more. Which seems incredibly silly, weighing each incident the same, but that's a bit of a tangent. Size matters but that is a detraction from the point being presented. All Might was the symbol of peace, as a poster already pointed out his presence alone was a deterrent to crime on some level. We know its for feats like when he held a burning building in place so rescue workers could evacuate the building and his personality and style of assuring people. Endeavor is literally incapable of feats like that so instead of going for "quality" he went for Quantity and earned his reputation as this dogged fighter. With respects to hero rankings, we have no idea of knowing what big events Endeavor handled compared to All Might. But the story more than tells us that one big reason why Endeavor was always second place was because because he's a gigantic rear end in a top hat. But with the rankings finally being re-established it's interesting to note that he's now 1st place even after basically falling into the title with All Might's retirement. Before it was just because he was No. 2. Now it's because the powers at be recognize him over the others who shifted up and down the rankings. My point was simply that in terms of recognized feats, there is something to actually show that Endeavor had surpassed All Might in one area if only on paper as the stuff like confronting AfO was never known until recent events and taking down the boss of the criminal underworld twice is definitely something major that probably isn't comparable to Endeavors own feats. But with Hawk talking about the next move being the establishment of a "leader" I really do question if that's what the Hero world and this society really need. The story has made a point to show the good and bad of the commodification of saving people. Having a monolithic figure is great for morale, and it can create an easy way for people to rally around an ideal. But I don't think the series has really sold me on the idea of why we need to go back to it when a lot of problems have been derived from the adoration of All Might, problems that really should be happening as they undermine the entire foundation. I know because it's the Main Character's goal that Hori isn't trying to villify this concept, but I can't help but feel that what's needed is for hero work to stop being so individualistic and shift to the same mentality that people have towards say the police. I think of "protect and serve" before I think of individual officers. It may be different for others though. But for Hero work in this series, because it's based around individuals competing and pushing their own brand for lack of a better term, and trying to differentiate themselves while conducting their civic duties. It's far easier to forget that the ideal of a hero isn't embodied by one person but it's supposed to be inherit to everyone. Getting a leader now makes sense as a short term solution to All Might retiring. But in the long run will it really be healthy to keep having to set one guy on top of the pile as the moral leader of the industry? And what happens if the next time another AfO steps up that guy loses? What will society do when they lose the beacon/leader figure?
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Jun 2, 2018 01:01
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The thing about All Might is that he was powerful to the extent where almost all villains were completely powerless against him. Endeavor might be really strong, but he doesn't have the same "there's no way I could ever touch that guy" thing going on. Like, some hypothetical villain with Bakugou's powers could at least envision a fight against Endeavor, but the same isn't true for All Might, who can move faster than the eye can see and smash buildings with shockwaves from his punches and poo poo. So All Might serves as a deterrent in the sense that any prospective villain will always be aware that they'll have to face him at some point if they reach a certain level of notoriety.
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Jun 2, 2018 02:09
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Fabricated posted:Nagisa's mom from Assassination Classroom was pretty horrifically abusive and at the end of the manga she uh, just changes and is better now and apparently tries to reconcile. boy am I glad I never got into soma
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Jun 2, 2018 02:21
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sns is good that part is just very not
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Jun 2, 2018 02:52
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Ytlaya posted:The thing about All Might is that he was powerful to the extent where almost all villains were completely powerless against him. Endeavor might be really strong, but he doesn't have the same "there's no way I could ever touch that guy" thing going on. Like, some hypothetical villain with Bakugou's powers could at least envision a fight against Endeavor, but the same isn't true for All Might, who can move faster than the eye can see and smash buildings with shockwaves from his punches and poo poo. Even that gets called into doubt as you look at how technology and criminal society has progressed. When we start to look at the endgame of people like Overhaul; how long until someone finds a way to get a dart into a hypothetical fully healed all might (or in this case a 100% Deku)? Once you figure that out no hero is safe and that's a very strong message to send. Quirk interaction also get weird, Shigaraki just doesn't care about physical durability so long as he can get his hand on a person. Can Compress contain someone like all might? Shouldn't Overhaul himself have been able to kill All Might with just a sustained touch? We've even seen that a coordinated dimensional warper can lock down All Might's movements if assisted. Granted, this all comes with the caveat that someone has to be able to actually get in contact with him to activate their ability without getting a Hawaii Smash to the noggin. But it's not like it's impossible either. All Might presented not just a deterrent, but a challenge to people who would want to get him off his throne. I hope none of this is coming across as overly cynical. I just really think Deku is going to have problems trying to be another symbol of peace in a world where villains would like to nip that notion in the bud so they never have to hide in the shadows, or under their own monolithic dictator again.
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Jun 2, 2018 03:07
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Brought To You By posted:Even that gets called into doubt as you look at how technology and criminal society has progressed. When we start to look at the endgame of people like Overhaul; how long until someone finds a way to get a dart into a hypothetical fully healed all might (or in this case a 100% Deku)? Once you figure that out no hero is safe and that's a very strong message to send. Quirk interaction also get weird, Shigaraki just doesn't care about physical durability so long as he can get his hand on a person. Can Compress contain someone like all might? Shouldn't Overhaul himself have been able to kill All Might with just a sustained touch? We've even seen that a coordinated dimensional warper can lock down All Might's movements if assisted. Granted, this all comes with the caveat that someone has to be able to actually get in contact with him to activate their ability without getting a Hawaii Smash to the noggin. But it's not like it's impossible either. All Might presented not just a deterrent, but a challenge to people who would want to get him off his throne. I hope none of this is coming across as overly cynical. I just really think Deku is going to have problems trying to be another symbol of peace in a world where villains would like to nip that notion in the bud so they never have to hide in the shadows, or under their own monolithic dictator again. It's not that no-one could actually get a hit in on him. We've seen plenty of people with enough power they could have taken on the SYMBOL OF PEACE. It's that nobody felt like they could. Guys with powers that, on paper, could have taken All-Might down did give it a shot. And then he kicked their asses into next week. Hell, that's why Bakugo idolized All-Might. He wasn't just the guy who could win when the odds looked good. He was the guy who always won. Who crossed the invisible threshold from "I only need one good day" to "Yeah, this isn't happening." And that's what Deku needs to do, and, importantly, what Deku is doing. He keeps getting himself into fights he shouldn't be able to win, and wins anyway. He's won a fight that should have been actually impossible. Better teamwork is good, but if villains think they have even a one in a million longshot, that means All-Might's role is still unfulfilled.
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Jun 2, 2018 03:39
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Fabricated posted:Azami from Souma is so mentally abusive (with some physical abuse) to Erina it emotionally stunts her for years and he loses custody of her. He comes back to try and take over the school and it immediately basically triggers panic attacks in Erina upon merely seeing him again. At the end of one of the most publicly despised arcs of a manga I've seen in a long time she eventually overcomes her fear of him and defeats him with Souma's help...then she thanks him as he silently walks out in a huff.
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Jun 2, 2018 03:50
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I just don't feel Endeavor is irredeemable. And we do know that one of his goals now is to try and fix his relationship with Shoto.
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Jun 2, 2018 04:04
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I hope Endeavor dies and Class 1-A have to convince hero society that he's still alive because it can't take two shocks so close together. A "Weekend at Burnie's" situation.
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Jun 2, 2018 04:33
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I feel like the anti-quirk serum is going to come back but in a way bigger way than just someone else having bullets they can use on a single hero or even a team of heroes. Like, someone is going to get that poo poo in the water supply and we'll see a swath of the country go quirkless.
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Jun 2, 2018 05:14
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I'm not sure how you'd resolve that, though. Like, the Quirkless from what we've seen are pretty poorly regarded and inflicting that on a wide area seems like a recipe for societal breakdown. It's a good villain plan, but I'm not sure how you'd write it in a shonen series. It's, uhh. It's not a problem you can punch.
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Jun 2, 2018 05:30
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I remember reading that soma panel was a poor translation but idk for sure since I'm not particularly into that series
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Jun 2, 2018 05:30
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I want to recontextualize the 'Endeavor redemption' issue. Consider instead 'Endeavor atonement'. I trust Hoshikori's character chops to know exactly the weight of what he's done with Endeavor and by that same respect know the level of weight that would be required to even come close to offsetting it.
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Jun 2, 2018 05:38
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