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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Bullets and trains aren’t sci-fi, on their own. What is the film saying about guns and trains?
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Jun 6, 2018 22:06
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Dishwasher posted:This is mainly what I dislike. Many people thought of Luke as the hero of heroes, especially if you count the old EU. While he redeemed himself, it'd be nice if he had another movie to be a solid warrior of justice and not a sad sack. But then again, I guess he shouldn't have hosed up like he did. It's a shame, if very realistic to how life is. People gently caress up and end up stuck in lovely places and it doesn't matter 'what' your name is when that happens. rian johnson was just dealing the hand already dealt to him; the way TFA goes already necessitates that the OT protagonists ultimately failed RJ does deserve credit for dealing with that setup how he did though
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Jun 6, 2018 22:11
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Halloween Jack posted:I half expected you to praise this one solely because it actually engages with droid slavery and the idea that the spaceships are alive. Yeah but it also indicates that the Kessel Run actually happened and Han didn't just make it up so
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Jun 6, 2018 22:14
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Dishwasher posted:I feel like all the angst for TLJ will be forgiven if IX sticks the landing even somewhat adequately. We both know that's not going to happen
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Jun 6, 2018 22:15
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Brother Entropy posted:rian johnson was just dealing the hand already dealt to him; the way TFA goes already necessitates that the OT protagonists ultimately failed I think the reason I haven't been put off by it is because I read too much Star Wars tie-in stuff when I was a teenager and nearly all of it relies on that premise. 
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Jun 6, 2018 22:15
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Wheat Loaf posted:I think the reason I haven't been put off by it is because I read too much Star Wars tie-in stuff when I was a teenager and nearly all of it relies on that premise. No it didn't. I read all of the Banthem era novels, the Dark Horse comics, and even some of the later Del Rey stuff and the heroes never became failed losers like they do in the new films. They had set backs and had to overcome obstacles sometimes even dealt with bleak poo poo but they were still the mostly optimistic group from the original trilogy and eventually they overcame all that bullshit.
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Jun 6, 2018 22:18
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Zoran posted:What does Ben Solo's fall say? We can tell that it is bad to listen to scary evil wizards, and that sometimes good people mess up or don’t raise their kids right, but is there anything more than that? I see a lot of that in Ben too. Ben is also in a search for identity, which is defined in large part by his relationship with his parents, both biological and parental figures (Luke, Snoke). In regards to Leia and Han, he goes the opposite direction that Luke did, trying to distance himself from them as much as possible. In TFA, he's changed his name, identifies more with (an idealized version of) his grandfather, tries to kill his parents, and is pretty much defined entirely by his opposition to the trappings of "Ben Solo". As expected, this does very little to actually give him any real sense of purpose or identity, which is where he's at as of the beginning of TLJ. Where Luke just sort of had a vague apathy towards ideology, but still stuck to the side of liberal democracy, Ben is constantly changing what he identifies with. in TLJ alone, he goes from "be a good follower of the First Order" to "tear down the First Order" to "lead the First Order". He doesn't really seem to believe too strongly in any of those (although I don't think it's accidental that his "gently caress all this" speech is by far his most sincere), they're just more identities he adopts while continuing to be mainly motivated by personal connections and a need to find a place for himself that isn't just "son/follower of X". And the thing that I think makes his character interesting is that none of it works for him. He will always have that hole inside, because everything he's doing is in opposition to someone else and not actually something he wants to accomplish for himself. That's what separates him from Luke (well, besides Luke picking liberal democracy to side with and Ben picking genocidal fascist cosplayers). Luke found something he wanted to work for - becoming the ideal version of his father. Ben only has things he wants to fight against, and since all those things are such integral parts of himself, it's also a weird sort of self-hatred, and it prevents him from ever being satisfied. I think it's a neat take on Star Wars' recurring theme of the emptiness of hatred and the dark side.
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Jun 6, 2018 22:19
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Wheat Loaf posted:I think the reason I haven't been put off by it is because I read too much Star Wars tie-in stuff when I was a teenager and nearly all of it relies on that premise. yeah that's kind of a thing with expanded universes where stories never get to end, there's always a new bigger threat or sometimes an old threat comes back bigger, it's a real bummer
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Jun 6, 2018 22:20
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Top Gun posted:No it didn't. I read all of the Banthem era novels, the Dark Horse comics, and even some of the later Del Rey stuff and the heroes never became failed losers like they do in the new films. They had set backs and had to overcome obstacles sometimes even dealt with bleak poo poo but they were still the mostly optimistic group from the original trilogy and eventually they overcame all that bullshit.
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Jun 6, 2018 22:26
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Wheat Loaf posted:Yeah but it also indicates that the Kessel Run actually happened and Han didn't just make it up so Oh no you guys! Your head canon!
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Jun 6, 2018 22:26
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A.I. Borgland Corp posted:Deep Space 9 does go into the economy of planetary energy distribution a little, on the planet of Bajor. Each Federation planet-state has its own political and economic system, and Bajor isn’t even a member. The other stuff just raises more questions than it answers, since it’s some kind of weird edge case where the government is repurposing obsolete military technology for a highly specific purpose.
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Jun 6, 2018 22:31
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It is vindicated for me by Han immediately telling some rando refinery worker what the ship just did and the dude doesn't appear to understand what it means much less care. And I mean, sure, maybe you lose the one example that Han is a low-rent bullshitter, but the movie characterizes him pretty much exactly that way nonetheless. He survives by bullshitting and luck and basically fails upwards through the story. Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 22:35
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Elysium not only has fans, but it specifically got a flurry of reactions from free-market ideologues, arguing that the technological singularity will render anticapitalist revolution unnecessary. The wealth will trickle down, they insisted. I think Star Wars has political subtext, but it is mostly subtext- lacking the didacticism of contemporary dystopias such as Logan's Run or Rollerball, movies which go to greater. Elysium belongs more in that dystopian tradition, it exists to draw clear lines between modern problems (wealth inequality and health care as commodity) and a potential nightmare future. quote:I didn’t say anything about “powerful people.” I said that energy companies must be massive. How will the energy distribution be handled in the communist utopia? Like it seems to me you're trying to steer everyone towards being fans of the Good and Virtuous Anti-Capitalist science fiction films instead, but there is apparently no utopian or truly escapist fiction in this category- no visions of a better world, just visions of our modern lovely world to be fought against.
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Jun 6, 2018 22:37
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sponges posted:It’s a shame the Luke character will be remembered as the pathetic fat coward from TLJ. He’s a hero but people who are dumb can’t see that. He’s the exact same character he was before. Hamill is wrong, Johnson is right. *hurles mic at the audience*
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Jun 6, 2018 22:37
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Dishwasher posted:This is mainly what I dislike. Many people thought of Luke as the hero of heroes, especially if you count the old EU. While he redeemed himself, it'd be nice if he had another movie to be a solid warrior of justice and not a sad sack. But then again, I guess he shouldn't have hosed up like he did. It's a shame, if very realistic to how life is. People gently caress up and end up stuck in lovely places and it doesn't matter 'what' your name is when that happens. It isn't about what's realistic, it's about what makes a good story, and there are two weaknesses with Luke's arc between RotJ and TLJ that hinder it. 1) The most interesting part of the story would have been how Luke went from someone who was willing to abstain from killing his father even though it meant giving up his life, to someone that would threaten the life of his nephew's out of anxiety, and that part isn't addressed. It's like if the film after TPM skipped to Darth Vader already in a mask and explaining how the Jedi were wiped out in a flashback. 2) The over-all outcome of the story is just a perpetuation of the status quo re: ESB. The end result is that RotJ and TFA are made irrelevant. Luke falling in this manner wouldn't necessarily be a bad story, but what we got was largely uncompelling.
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Jun 6, 2018 22:39
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AndyElusive posted:Name one ancillary character that dies who doesn't go out like a chump in the entire Saga other than Crynyd. I don't actually care about Ackbar, my post was a joke. Although I did think it was funny he gets killed off-screen & another character specifically says that he's dead after being a non-presence. I have no idea who Crynyd is.
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Jun 6, 2018 22:48
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Brother Entropy posted:yeah that's kind of a thing with expanded universes where stories never get to end, there's always a new bigger threat or sometimes an old threat comes back bigger, it's a real bummer Sure, the chronologically final story in the Legends EU that I read (the Dark Horse comic Star Wars: Legacy) was about how the Sith returned 100 years after the movies, destroyed the Jedi and drove the survivors into hiding, conquered the Republic and restored the Empire with the remnants of the Republic fleet roaming around space fighting to survive and winning whatever victories they can. Largely similar to the movie premise again. (It was a good story, though.)
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Jun 6, 2018 22:49
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Schwarzwald posted:1) The most interesting part of the story would have been how Luke went from someone who was willing to abstain from killing his father even though it meant giving up his life, to someone that would threaten the life of his nephew's out of anxiety, and that part isn't addressed. It's like if the film after TPM skipped to Darth Vader already in a mask and explaining how the Jedi were wiped out in a flashback. it's not expressed strongly enough but the idea i got was that it was supposed to be a dramatic irony thing where luke's fear of a new sith or a new empire undoing all that they fought for was ultimately what made it happen they should've spent more time on that moment in general, elaborate on why luke already felt like snoke was targeting ben and if it was even inevitable before ben saw luke eyeing his saber
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Jun 6, 2018 22:52
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I don't know if I've ever heard a single person talk about Elysium outside of the internet. It was pretty good though the concept art was way better.
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Jun 6, 2018 22:53
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CelticPredator posted:He’s a hero but people who are dumb can’t see that. No, he ran away like a coward. And he died like a coward. All the new Luke stuff is extraneous tacked on shite. (It’s not your faultt Luke. You’re the victim of a bad script)
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Jun 6, 2018 22:53
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Dishwasher posted:This is mainly what I dislike. Many people thought of Luke as the hero of heroes, especially if you count the old EU. While he redeemed himself, it'd be nice if he had another movie to be a solid warrior of justice and not a sad sack. But then again, I guess he shouldn't have hosed up like he did. It's a shame, if very realistic to how life is. People gently caress up and end up stuck in lovely places and it doesn't matter 'what' your name is when that happens. The most important part of passing the torch is to keep hanging onto it. Schwarzwald posted:Luke falling in this manner wouldn't necessarily be a bad story, but what we got was largely uncompelling. It's not Luke's story. Maybe they'll release Skywalker sometime later.
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Jun 6, 2018 22:54
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Schwarzwald posted:It isn't about what's realistic, it's about what makes a good story, and there are two weaknesses with Luke's arc between RotJ and TLJ that hinder it. 1) This is explained, though! Luke calls it hubris. He's the head honcho Jedi now. There's no one to defer to. He gets to decide who gets to be a Jedi and who isn't worthy of it. In his moment of weakness he believes that he has the right to kill people who might fall to the Dark Side, but he comes to realize that he shouldn't have that power, and furthermore, nobody else should either. His encounter with Rey teaches him that this is further hubris, that he doesn't have the right to decide that there shouldn't be any more Jedi. This is what people point to when they say that TFA is subversive. It criticizes the notion that the Force makes people powerful, which a lot of Star Wars fans mistakenly thought was what the previous movies were about. 2) Irrelevant to what? You saw them, right? You still like those movies? If you're actually upset that the "status quo of the Star Wars galaxy" has regressed, then I'm sorry, all I can say is that it's not real, don't worry about it. sponges posted:No, he ran away like a coward. And he died like a coward. Was Obi Wan a coward? pospysyl fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Jun 6, 2018 |
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Jun 6, 2018 22:56
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Brother Entropy posted:it's not expressed strongly enough but the idea i got was that it was supposed to be a dramatic irony thing where luke's fear of a new sith or a new empire undoing all that they fought for was ultimately what made it happen
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Jun 6, 2018 23:05
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Schwarzwald posted:
You literally just described A New Hope, before any planned sequels or prequels. Nobody had any problem not knowing those details when that movie came out. Plus like other people mentioned, TLJ isn’t about Luke, just like ESB isn’t about Yoda. We know Yoda was once a great master who is now a weird hermit, the details of why are irrelevant because he is a side character.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:14
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There is a rumor that Kathleen Kennedy will be leaving Lucasfilm in September.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:15
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Colonel Whitey posted:You literally just described A New Hope, before any planned sequels or prequels. Nobody had any problem not knowing those details when that movie came out. Then don’t put Luke in the movie in the first place
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Jun 6, 2018 23:16
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Colonel Whitey posted:You literally just described A New Hope, before any planned sequels or prequels. Nobody had any problem not knowing those details when that movie came out. Is there a difference between these two scenarios? [A] Disney's first Star Wars film introduces Ben Solo as a gruff thirty-something Jedi who lost his way and hurt people in his past but who is now on the side of good. [B] In the opening scene of Star Wars Episode IX, the sequel to the Episode VII and Episode VIII that actually exist, Ben Solo is introduced as a gruff thirty-something Jedi who lost his way and hurt people in his past but who is now on the side of good.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:21
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pospysyl posted:1) This is explained, though! Luke calls it hubris. He's the head honcho Jedi now. There's no one to defer to. He gets to decide who gets to be a Jedi and who isn't worthy of it. In his moment of weakness he believes that he has the right to kill people who might fall to the Dark Side, but he comes to realize that he shouldn't have that power, and furthermore, nobody else should either. Yes, that's the thing interesting thing that I think would have been cool to see. The flashbacks we got were like reading a wikipedia plot summery of a second film. pospysyl posted:2) Irrelevant to what? You saw them, right? You still like those movies? If you're actually upset that the "status quo of the Star Wars galaxy" has regressed, then I'm sorry, all I can say is that it's not real, don't worry about it. Two of the things I really appreciate about the Lucas films were the scope of the setting and the fact that it changes lastingly and meaningfully over the course of them. I wouldn't say that I'm upset, but it's a little disappointing that some of what I liked is apparently no longer a part of the series.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:24
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sponges posted:Then don’t put Luke in the movie in the first place Why? Zoran posted:Is there a difference between these two scenarios? This is not analogous to how Luke was handled.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:26
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:There is a rumor that Kathleen Kennedy will be leaving Lucasfilm in September. I'd leave too if I had that much heat and knew I could jump somewhere else for the same or more money to another project that people aren't literally calling for my head for. And I can't blame Disney, when people are being so irrational it's best to cut losses. It's a shame you can count this as a victory for the alt-reich though.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:28
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Colonel Whitey posted:This is not analogous to how Luke was handled. You were responding to someone saying it would have been bizarre to go straight from TPM Anakin to Darth Vader by saying that A New Hope came out first and didn’t have all the backstory. You completely missed the point.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:30
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Colonel Whitey posted:You literally just described A New Hope, before any planned sequels or prequels. Nobody had any problem not knowing those details when that movie came out. I was describing TPM before AotC and RotS came out. I agree that the original trilogy is self contained, but if you go straight from TPM to ANH you're going to have some questions. I honestly don't know how to respond to the second paragraph. Are you saying it's OK that Luke's story sucks in TLJ, because he doesn't matter to the film? I might not disagree, but I don't really think that counts as a defense.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:33
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Dishwasher posted:I'd leave too if I had that much heat and knew I could jump somewhere else for the same or more money to another project that people aren't literally calling for my head for. And I can't blame Disney, when people are being so irrational it's best to cut losses. It's a shame you can count this as a victory for the alt-reich though. I don't know. She's been in charge for five years now and she's in her mid-60s. Maybe she just wants to leave anyway? Though I wouldn't be surprised if she's getting the sack over Solo since most of the problems seem to have come down to her wanting to assert the fact that she is in charge. 
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Jun 6, 2018 23:35
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Schwarzwald posted:I was describing TPM before AotC and RotS came out. I agree that the original trilogy is self contained, but if you go straight from TPM to ANH you're going to have some questions. It’s not analogous. TFA came out thirty years later, following entirely new characters with the old characters as side characters. It’s a new story that is loosely tied to the old trilogy. The original characters are not who we are following anymore, that kind of thinking needs to be reframed. You’re assuming a lot about what these new movies are supposed to be doing. And I’m not saying it’s ok his story sucks because I don’t think it did suck. I’m saying it’s mistaken to say it’s Luke’s story. Its Ben’s story.
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Jun 6, 2018 23:42
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Saying it’s not Luke’s story is dumb as hell. What does that even mean? Did they put him on the screen for half the runtime and give him character development and the climactic battle scene on accident?
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Jun 7, 2018 00:13
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Certainly TLJ is far more about Luke than it is about Rey, Finn, Poe, or Rose. Why are all the new heroes' names monosyllabic?
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Jun 7, 2018 00:15
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luke is a more important character to TLJ than finn is, one of the ostensible major characters of the new trilogy
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Jun 7, 2018 00:17
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Zoran posted:Certainly TLJ is far more about Luke than it is about Rey, Finn, Poe, or Rose. Why are most of the old heroes names monosyllabic. The answer is who cares?
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Jun 7, 2018 00:20
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rewatching Attack of the Clones and boy, the blocking and pacing is absolutely bizarre It looks like cutscenes in a Spy Fox game
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Jun 7, 2018 00:41
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Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Dan Dare. It's a space hero thing. Not 100% mandatory, you got your Valerians and Barbarellas and whatnot.
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Jun 7, 2018 00:41
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