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Sure worked out well for China that shooting thousands of protesters led to the ultimate defeat of the bourgeois liberal middle class, a thing it definitely does not have today
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Jun 5, 2018 01:09
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Fojar38 posted:On the other hand, maybe they shouldn't have murdered thousands of people. Those who chose to remain in the square has been told by their own leaders what was going to happen. It wasn’t murder, it was self-martyrdom; suicide by PLA.
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Jun 5, 2018 01:24
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proletarian_pixie posted:Those who chose to remain in the square has been told by their own leaders what was going to happen. It wasn’t murder, it was self-martyrdom; suicide by PLA. Implicitly comparing the PLA to cops is pretty harsh in this of all threads
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Jun 5, 2018 01:31
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Jun 5, 2018 01:42
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sincx posted:Too harsh for who? Is the PLA better or worse than American cops? ACAB
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Jun 5, 2018 02:01
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caberham posted:Yeah the current system is so great Yeah well it's not like a straight up choice between current mainland and current Taiwan. Russia aint exactly a great place to be
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Jun 5, 2018 02:03
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And Taiwan is so bad
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R. Guyovich posted:i can't believe i read the whole thing Oh hey congrats on the admin guy. Also you're a braver man than I, my eyes glazed the gently caress over halfway through and I skipped to the end. caberham posted:Yeah the current system is so great China is seriously ramping up pressure against Taiwan with the military buildup and flexing their claims over the South China Sea. Taiwan must be worried about Trump being Trump and trying to remove the US from the defense deal they have.
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Jun 5, 2018 02:23
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Peven Stan posted:The protests were real, people did not like capitalism and felt that they were betrayed by their capitalist road leaders. Wait wait wait. If 1989 China was a capitalist hellscape, then what is China now?
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Jun 5, 2018 03:04
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China is a capitalist state controlled by a communist party.
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Jun 5, 2018 03:11
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I must say, the PRC apologists in this thread are kinda subdued today. I wonder why, nothing of importance happened on this date 29 years ago in China. No Why.
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Jun 5, 2018 03:27
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Willie Tomg posted:If Chinese intellectuals wrote half as voluminously obnoxious as this, then Mao was utterly correct to persecute, pillory, and execute them. I gotta admit my brain is so broken from reading Western writing on Asia and reading stuff like the NYRB and NYT that that article seemed completely unremarkable in that sense icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Jun 5, 2018 |
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Jun 5, 2018 03:32
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Darkest Auer posted:Wait wait wait. If 1989 China was a capitalist hellscape, then what is China now? "State Capitalism" is the specific terminology that you're looking for. Mantis42 posted:China is a capitalist state controlled by a communist party. Are they still a communist party if they don't bother with communism anymore?
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Jun 5, 2018 03:53
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Jun 5, 2018 04:26
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If I remember the one class I took on this correctly, the official party line is something along the lines of "So the communist revolution happened, which is good, but unfortunately too early in our historical march to really give everyone the benefits of full state control. So we're gonna go capitalist and build up infrastructure and fun things and then we'll switch over to communism once everyone has enough. Also we're not giving up control because then the capitalists would get elected and just perpetuate that forever."
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Jun 5, 2018 04:33
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Benagain posted:If I remember the one class I took on this correctly, the official party line is something along the lines of "So the communist revolution happened, which is good, but unfortunately too early in our historical march to really give everyone the benefits of full state control. So we're gonna go capitalist and build up infrastructure and fun things and then we'll switch over to communism once everyone has enough. Also we're not giving up control because then the capitalists would get elected and just perpetuate that forever." There was a good interview with some random Important Guy who said he asked some of the CCP higher ups if they are capitalist, socialist or communist these days. The guys answer was "We will be whatever works. But we will always call it 'Socialism with Chinese Characteristics'".
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Jun 5, 2018 04:47
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Benagain posted:If I remember the one class I took on this correctly, the official party line is something along the lines of "So the communist revolution happened, which is good, but unfortunately too early in our historical march to really give everyone the benefits of full state control. So we're gonna go capitalist and build up infrastructure and fun things and then we'll switch over to communism once everyone has enough. Also we're not giving up control because then the capitalists would get elected and just perpetuate that forever." the theory of the productive forces is as old as the communist manifesto.
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Jun 5, 2018 05:53
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It’s a pretty big part of Chinese communism; idea being that a certain level of economic development and industrialization are necessary for socialism to happen. Capitalism is explicitly okay in Chinese communism as long as the country is still developing and the people as a whole are getting richer and end up better off.
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Jun 5, 2018 06:28
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Last night Victoria Park 
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Jun 5, 2018 06:49
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Former DIA case officer arrested for trying to pass intelligence to a Chinese agentBBC posted:Mr Hansen, who lives in Syracuse, Utah, was charged with attempting to gather or deliver national defence information to aid a foreign government.
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Jun 5, 2018 06:55
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Pirate Radar posted:It’s a pretty big part of Chinese communism; idea being that a certain level of economic development and industrialization are necessary for socialism to happen. Capitalism is explicitly okay in Chinese communism as long as the country is still developing and the people as a whole are getting richer and end up better off. it's essentially a much longer iteration of the soviet nep, longer because 1) there isn't a looming world war to spur rapid mobilization of production and 2) in '78 china was even less developed than pre-revolutionary russia
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Jun 5, 2018 07:05
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Grapplejack posted:"State Capitalism" is the specific terminology that you're looking for. It's an authoritarian single-party state, all authoritarian parties have wrong names so it doesn't matter what it is. They also make a Marx statue for Germany so that's that.
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Jun 5, 2018 07:23
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R. Guyovich posted:it's essentially a much longer iteration of the soviet nep, longer because 1) there isn't a looming world war to spur rapid mobilization of production and 2) in '78 china was even less developed than pre-revolutionary russia The other big difference is unlike the NEP, China was able to gain a long-term large positive balance of trade with its Western trade partners. We will see how long it goes on for, but yeah they obviously branched out a while for orthodox state socialism and are not going to come back. As for Russia, yeah in the 1990s it certainly wasn't a great place to live. Now, eh, depends on exactly where you are talking about.
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Jun 5, 2018 11:34
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Russia is a poo poo hole that doesn't have any signs of improvement or hope as it's political and economic situation keep getting worse.
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Jun 5, 2018 18:23
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Boris Yeltsin's economic policy was responsible to Russians' high mortality rate. He led the charge and drank himself to death.
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Jun 5, 2018 19:07
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Baronjutter posted:Russia is a poo poo hole that doesn't have any signs of improvement or hope as it's political and economic situation keep getting worse. Uh according to that chart at least, inequality is slowly going down, lower is better. According to the St.Louis Fed, Russia has a lower index than the US. I mean I know you don't like Russia, but honestly your not right here. Life expectancy has been rising, and a lot of regional cities are improving (outside of Moscow). I have seen it first hand, and I talk to Russians pretty much every day about it. Inequality is still an issue, and life isn't necessarily easy especially in villages but no, and it could certainly happen faster but things actually did change and are still changing. I don't know what to say if both statistics and personal experience is not enough. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Jun 5, 2018 |
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Jun 5, 2018 19:20
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If you want a really depressing chart it's anything to do with Ukraine, stagnant or falling since soviet times    But things have not been going well for Russia economically the last few years. Less to do with sanctions and military conquests and more to do with pegging so much of your economy on a few resource exports. The people I know in Russia are all fairly insulated middle class folk living in the big cities, but even they've felt it over the last 5 years or so. Cost of living is up, wages are down, and the extremely conservative authoritarianism is becoming more and more heavy handed. The sense of growth and stability under Putin have given way to stagnation. People are more than willing to trade their political freedom for better material conditions, but once the growth of those conditions stagnates for too long, or crashes, who knows.
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Jun 5, 2018 19:36
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Baronjutter posted:If you want a really depressing chart it's anything to do with Ukraine, stagnant or falling since soviet times Okay, back to the discussion of PPP, in both charts they are citing nominal GDP, in terms of USD, and while it is true wages dropped in terms of US dollars, in actual terms in rubles they have grown with inflation (current GDP per capita in PPP terms is $28,000). Certain foreign items got far more expensive but have gradually been replaced by Russian made or former-Soviet made items. Assuming Russians had their wages halved because the Ruble lost its value is only correct if their entire paycheck goes to foreign made items.... but the Russians economy just doesn't work that way and inflation is at a historical low (although it was pretty high during the crisis). I have had a similar argument before, but people (especially in larger countries) use a local currency to buy local goods and pay local rent. If anything it is arguably the Ruble was overvalued and needed to be devalued to a pretty sizable extent since imports were relatively too cheap for Russian industry to compete. (Btw, a bunch of foreign companies make items in Russia itself to get around tariffs.) As for growth and stability giving away to stagnation, eh I wouldn't say so either looking at most criteria. Russian growth could be higher, but unemployment is low, wages (in rubles) are relatively up and at least in Moscow, the housing market has stabilized. The Russian budget also very well may be in a surplus soon. As for people ready to revolt...also man, I just don't see it and I talk to a lot of educated Russians, many of whom don't like Putin (and yes the Authoritarianism is clearly there). It is an issue of data doesn't necessarily represent what you may think it does. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jun 5, 2018 |
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Jun 5, 2018 19:44
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Ardennes posted:It is an issue of data doesn't necessarily represent what you may think it does. Things are getting better but considering Russia is one of the largest oil exporters in the world it's hard to not see a huge wasted potential.
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Jun 5, 2018 20:05
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Bates posted:Things are getting better but considering Russia is one of the largest oil exporters in the world it's hard to not see a huge wasted potential. Obviously, it could be doing better than it is, and part of that is just the government and its spending practices but it is also a separate argument. (I don't think privatization would help the country btw.) A big part of is just spending more money on education and healthcare. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jun 5, 2018 |
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Jun 5, 2018 20:13
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Ardennes posted:
Pretty big deal though. It's not like Putin haven't had the funds and time to reform it. Or to diversify the economy. Now the demographics are coming home to roost and the labor force will start shrinking which will make everything more difficult.
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Jun 5, 2018 21:17
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Bates posted:Pretty big deal though. It's not like Putin haven't had the funds and time to reform it. Or to diversify the economy. Now the demographics are coming home to roost and the labor force will start shrinking which will make everything more difficult. Admittedly, sanctions probably has lead to some diversification, exports are obviously still dominated by energy but it is clear imports have fallen considered and replaced by domestic manufacturing. Supposedly, the government is supposed to divert spending next year, we will see. (There was obviously a cost to military and defense spending, and we will see if the Kremlin can actually pivot on the issue.) The demographics issue is more tricky, since admittedly, a temporarily shrinking workforce may not actually be that bad for many Russians since they can start demanding higher wages. Also, the demographic collapse is a more than a bit oversold, since much of it had already come to pass, and the demographics after another 2-3 years will probably start trending the opposite direction looking at the stats. Also, the "echo collapse" doesn't seem as bad as predicted (pro-natalist policy helped I guess) due to the fact that young Russians seem to have started having kids again. (Btw Russians by and large still get married young (18-21 years), so 20 years is still a decent benchmark for generations. The worst year demographically was 2000.) Ardennes fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Jun 5, 2018 |
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Jun 5, 2018 21:29
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Jun 6, 2018 23:39
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As that story in particular starts to gain traction, I'd be just a little bit surprised that the cause is not related fundamentally to something the U.S. was doing that had unintentional ramifications, but that no matter what it'll be amazing to find out what the hell it actually is. In the case of Cuba, the reaction of the government there was pretty telling. IIRC, they immediately treated it with a diplomatic panic, like something they sincerely wanted to deny participation in out of outright concern that it would harm relations in ways they 100% would not have risked in the first place ever. Like "oh god, it's not us, poo poo, we swear. it's NOT US"
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Jun 7, 2018 20:07
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Aren't a bunch of doctors saying it's pretty much textbook "mass hysteria" like people developing actual real symptoms because they so firmly believe living near a cell phone tower or power lines is hurting them and you'll get whole neighbourhoods getting symptoms and rashes and poo poo but it's entirely in their heads?
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Jun 7, 2018 21:29
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I mean, it's not impossible, but I imagine none of the doctors remotely qualified to make that diagnosis, who have been involved in observing or diagnosing what had happened to these people, will have said anything to the public. I don't consider it the most likely explanation. Just ... possible.
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Jun 7, 2018 22:26
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The CIA has to be stuffed full of Eric Garland style nutjobs who believe the Communist menace has invented brain rays to make them go insane. I’d put my money on it being paranoid as gently caress mid or lower level CIA employees making this up
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Jun 8, 2018 02:18
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icantfindaname posted:The CIA has to be stuffed full of Eric Garland style nutjobs who believe the Communist menace has invented brain rays to make them go insane. I’d put my money on it being paranoid as gently caress mid or lower level CIA employees making this up What, are you kidding? The CIA is just jealous they didn’t invent brain melting sonic rays first. Unless they did 
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Jun 8, 2018 03:15
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Pirate Radar posted:What, are you kidding? The CIA is just jealous they didn’t invent brain melting sonic rays first. Get with the times.
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Jun 8, 2018 03:30
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Yeah given the actually god drat microwave pain ray and those focused sonic guns that have been around for like 5 years Its not super unbelievable.
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Jun 11, 2018 14:47
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Peven Stan posted:The protests were real, people did not like capitalism and felt that they were betrayed by their capitalist road leaders. The only man speaking truth in this entire thread. The protests are spun wildly out of proportion in the decedent West, it’s the reason why every single person otherwise ignorant of Asian affairs knows about it while virtually none know of, for example, the Gwangju Uprising. I wonder why.
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Jun 14, 2018 18:50
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