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It’s Death Star tech!!
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Jun 8, 2018 14:36
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euphronius posted:his maneuver was ineffective and hopeless and he was throwing his life away out of blind rage towards the first order . The cinematography made it seem like if he flew into the maw of the thing it would explodulate
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Jun 8, 2018 14:40
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His ship was melting before he even got close Regardless Oscar Isaac called if off because he realized it would not work. Ie the movie told you it was hopeless
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Jun 8, 2018 14:41
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I'm just baffled as to how the First Order let them get back to the base
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Jun 8, 2018 14:42
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euphronius posted:His ship was melting before he even got close Oscar Isaac called off the group attack where they were going to laser it, and called it off because he realized they were all going to get slaughtered by the AT-ATs. Finn's suicide run was a different tactic. (The AT-ATs stopped firing at him for some reason, maybe their targeting cameras can't see black people like a ton of webcam software)
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Jun 8, 2018 14:46
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LGD posted:e: oh and as a data point that may have some bearing on the business and audience reception side of this (and related) discussions, TLJ appears to have only sold about half as many blu-rays as TFA did during the first 3 weeks of release What a weird metric to measure a movie's success on, as more and more movies are bought as digital downloads. BravestOfTheLamps posted:He goes to his sleeping nephew with intent to kill and readies a weapon. No he doesn't. He has no intent to kill when he goes to him. He goes to him trying to see how far he's falling to the dark side. When he sees it, he has a moment where he thinks of stopping the destruction he'll surely cause before it happens. His grief and regret from this moment is something he's been plagued by ever since.
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Jun 8, 2018 15:02
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It's a rashomon situation. Whether Ben's, Luke's, or Rey's perception of how it went down is accurate, or even if any of them are, is unknowable.
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Jun 8, 2018 15:04
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A.I. Borgland Corp posted:It's a rashomon situation. Whether Ben's, Luke's, or Rey's perception of how it went down is accurate, or even if any of them are, is unknowable. I feel like the movie is telling you Luke's version is correct, because his version doesn't mean what Kylo saw isn't accurate (he didn't know why Luke was there, just that Luke was over him with a lightsaber). Kylo's version being true doesn't make Luke's version not true. The movie presents it to us as the final, true version of events. Maybe the movie is lying to us, but it gives us no reason to believe that.
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Jun 8, 2018 15:07
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thrawn527 posted:No he doesn't. He has no intent to kill when he goes to him. He goes to him trying to see how far he's falling to the dark side. When he sees it, he has a moment where he thinks of stopping the destruction he'll surely cause before it happens. His grief and regret from this moment is something he's been plagued by ever since. That's rather obvious self-delusion on Skywalker's part.
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Jun 8, 2018 15:51
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Angry Salami posted:I've actually got a crackpot theory that RotJ didn't happen in TLJ's continuity. I am really not looking forward to the thread trying to convince Jivjov that the Star Killer was actually the second Death Star.
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Jun 8, 2018 16:09
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:It is the same Luke. He learned to control his darker impulses and focusing on the future rather than the present, but he has been consistently shown in the OT as a guy whose basic character is to buck authority, rush off heedless, daydream of the future and neglect the present. I say he learns to control it, but he can't suppress it fully on an instinctive level. in a word- horseshit, and one of the weakest attempts at justification I've seen "original sin" is not an explanation for a character doing a complete 180 behaviorally, and in no way does a tendency to "buck authority, rush off heedless, daydream of the future and neglect the present" equate to a tendency to murder your nephew and student because you have a suspicion they might go bad (if anything those traits would lead you to overindulge that person and overlook their flaws until it was too late) nor is it in any sense "character growth" when we don't meaningfully see what led to such a dramatic and drastic change in the character- sure he appears to feel bad for the grossly out-of-character action he took in the narrative past, but it doesn't feel in any way credible for him to have taken that action in the first place because it goes directly against his established character/behavior in the OT and TLJ does not care/bother to show us how he actually evolved to the point of being willing to act that way - it's simply bad and lazy storytelling that betrays a lack of understanding or respect for the source material there's nothing wrong with revealing Luke to be a more flawed character than he was in the OT, but the how/why of it matters quite a bit and TLJ fucks that up enormously
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Jun 8, 2018 17:05
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“Why did you consider murdering your nephew as you stood over him holding a laser sword?” “Well, original sin you see, and pobody’s nerfect!”
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Jun 8, 2018 17:18
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Man, Snoke made me do it. You know how Snoke is
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Jun 8, 2018 17:19
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I mean Luke (entirely correctly) sensed that Ben Solo had the potential to become a galaxy-threatening force of evil. It's not as ethically simple as some are making it out to be. I believe Luke when he says he wouldn't actually go through with it but it makes sense he'd at least consider trying to stop that new threat from arising.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:27
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Honestly, given everything we've seen of Ben Solo, the only thing Luke should be regretting is that he didn't follow through.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:30
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I disagree that it's a complete 180 (or that drastic a change), and I think that's the main thing separating the two sides of the argument. This is the Luke of ROTJ: But so is this:  That part of his character doesn't just vanish when he decides to spare and forgive Vader. In fact, I think that would be pretty poor take on his character; if Luke was just automatically a good person, that makes his decision to spare Vader not the big deal it is, it's just...Luke being a good Jedi robot. Luke's strength of character is most visible when he struggles with it, and when he struggles with himself. Luke in the OT never has to deal with failure on a personal level. (The closest he comes is in ESB, but even that he's more caught up in the failure of Ben to tell him the truth about his father, and the trauma of his hero and villain being the same person.) He never has to deal with the idea that something he's responsible for could become evil. Vader, after all, went to the dark side before Luke was even born. Luke could believe in him in part because he never actually had to see the Anakin that went bad. He could believe entirely in the fictional hero Anakin. So when he realizes Ben has been drawn to the dark side, that's the first time he ever has to handle evil that's his own fault (at least in his mind). And it's the first time he's seen nascent evil, something that can be stopped before it begins. And for a moment the Luke that responds to this is a glimmer of the one that did slip into darkness, that did try to murder a relative. It's only for a moment; I think it's incredibly important that Luke stops himself. He doesn't go through with killing Ben and just get stopped by chance, or hesitate and let Ben defend himself, he straight up knows it's wrong and stops before he's even done anything besides draw his weapon. (I mean, I guess you could believe Kylo's version, but since it's on incomplete information and the story is structured to tell us that it's not the whole truth, I think at that point you're just creating the problem you're complaining about.) It's just that, in this case drawing his weapon was enough to gently caress things up. Like, Luke absolutely fails here, he completely screws the pooch. I'm not defending his choice. I just don't think it's one that's out of character.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:32
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LGD posted:in a word- horseshit, and one of the weakest attempts at justification I've seen It's, at base, the impulsive nature of Luke I intended to highlight. In Jabba's palace he grabs for a gun to shoot Jabba in cold blood. He reacts impulsively to a Force vision in ESB. He doesn't have a "tendency to murder his nephew" - he has a vision of evil in the Force and his first, gut-level instinct is the same as it's always been: to use violence and destroy it. He restrains himself, also as per his character, but the damage is done. quote:nor is it in any sense "character growth" when we don't meaningfully see what led to such a dramatic and drastic change in the character- sure he appears to feel bad for the grossly out-of-character action he took in the narrative past, but it doesn't feel in any way credible for him to have taken that action in the first place because it goes directly against his established character/behavior in the OT and TLJ does not care/bother to show us how he actually evolved to the point of being willing to act that way - it's simply bad and lazy storytelling that betrays a lack of understanding or respect for the source material I don't know what to tell you; if you've never been betrayed or disgusted by your thoughts and instincts, then you're either an angel or you've never engaged in any form of self-reflection.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:33
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Lord Hydronium posted:I disagree that it's a complete 180 (or that drastic a change), and I think that's the main thing separating the two sides of the argument. This is the Luke of ROTJ: What on earth Him throwing away the lightsaber to spare vader is the most powerful act in the whole series. He tells the Emperor and Yoda to gently caress off in one swoop but then I guess he makes a jedi school and almost kills his nephew? turn left hillary!! noo posted:I don't know what to tell you; if you've never been betrayed or disgusted by your thoughts and instincts, then you're either an angel or you've never engaged in any form of self-reflection. I can 100% say I have never stood in my nephew's bedroom with a cocked and loaded gun pointed at him, no It's not like he stopped at the door to the hut and had second thoughts, he got all the way through the walk to Ben's room, opening the door, walking in, pulling his weapon and igniting it
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Jun 8, 2018 18:02
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:It's, at base, the impulsive nature of Luke I intended to highlight. In Jabba's palace he grabs for a gun to shoot Jabba in cold blood. He reacts impulsively to a Force vision in ESB. He doesn't have a "tendency to murder his nephew" - he has a vision of evil in the Force and his first, gut-level instinct is the same as it's always been: to use violence and destroy it. He restrains himself, also as per his character, but the damage is done. yes, it's definitely the people who are unable to differentiate the perverse thoughts and instincts common to every human from someone being so close to seriously murdering a relative/student/child in their sleep that they have a naked blade at the child's throat who are incapable of self-reflection in the OT luke is impulsive in a very real, understandable manner, and the force vision he reacts impulsively to is one of his friends in peril and pain- he leaves his training to go save them from present danger, and the person he attempts to shoot is a dangerous crime lord who had enslaved his sister/friend into his space harem this is clearly no different from a man who receives a vision of an unrealized future and decides the best course of action is to murder a sleeping child entrusted to his care
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Jun 8, 2018 18:04
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Waffles Inc. posted:What on earth what did he do right before that
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Jun 8, 2018 18:11
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He had a whoopsie But have a whoopsie don't make you go recruit a bunch of kids, build a temple and a bunch of lightsabers
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Jun 8, 2018 18:15
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CelticPredator posted:what did he do right before that Fought Vader? Then he had what we call an epiphany Are you attempting to draw a parallel between almost killing Kyle and almost killing Vader?
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Jun 8, 2018 18:15
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Yes. Because both are acts of aggression and impulse Also I’m happy you don’t have future seeing powers and can’t look into who is and isn’t a mass murder, so you never have to face the burden that you could’ve killed this person to save others It’s a nice thing not to have.
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Jun 8, 2018 18:20
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Waffles Inc. posted:
You need to rewatch the film. He had originally gone to the hut to try to use the force to suss out what kind of darkness was in Ben. He was already inside before the brief flash of "kill this threat" happened. This was clearly not presented as premeditated, he didn't walk out there, weapon drawn,ready to kill.
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Jun 8, 2018 18:21
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jivjov posted:You need to rewatch the film. He had originally gone to the hut to try to use the force to suss out what kind of darkness was in Ben. He was already inside before the brief flash of "kill this threat" happened. This was clearly not presented as premeditated, he didn't walk out there, weapon drawn,ready to kill. Why was he even carrying his gun with him then?
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Jun 8, 2018 18:23
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He carries his lightsaber wherever he goes He’s a Jedi and has his concealed carry license
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Jun 8, 2018 18:24
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If only Luke had some precedent he could think of in a situation like that. The Last Jedi is a poorly written movie.
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Jun 8, 2018 18:25
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A.I. Borgland Corp posted:Why was he even carrying his gun with him then? Do we ever see a lightsaber wielding character not routinely carry the lightsaber as a matter of course? Obviously you see characters lose theirs or have it confiscated...but I'm pretty sure ever Jedi and sith we see in the films always has their weapon on hand if they can.
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Jun 8, 2018 18:26
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CelticPredator posted:He carries his lightsaber wherever he goes He threw his lightsaber in the garbage and then the garbage can exploded. Why the hell would he build a new one and then build a lightsaber school? His continued training in the ways of the force would be more like karate kid 3, practicing his kata and trimming bonsai tree.
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Jun 8, 2018 18:26
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Because he’s teaching Jedi. Jedi use lightsabers:
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Jun 8, 2018 18:27
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In most of Europe very few Jedi carry lightsabers
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Jun 8, 2018 18:29
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TLJ wouldn't have happened Luke had a blaster.
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Jun 8, 2018 18:40
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I mean Luke (entirely correctly) sensed that Ben Solo had the potential to become a galaxy-threatening force of evil. It's not as ethically simple as some are making it out to be. I believe Luke when he says he wouldn't actually go through with it but it makes sense he'd at least consider trying to stop that new threat from arising. Leia also had the potential to become a galaxy-threatening force of evil. In fact, it's quite likely that after the events of RotJ and for a significant length of time afterwards, that she would have been the single most influential person in the galaxy. Her potential for evil is even acknowledged by the film; it's the context for that gif Lord Hydronium posted! Is is an ethically complex question if Luke should have killed her? Would you expect him to try, from what you've seen of his character?
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Jun 8, 2018 18:44
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A.I. Borgland Corp posted:Man, Snoke made me do it. You know how Snoke is Man, you know Kylo was the only one who could even make heads or tails of the guy.
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Jun 8, 2018 18:46
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CelticPredator posted:Because he’s teaching Jedi. Jedi use lightsabers: compelling stuff OP jivjov posted:Do we ever see a lightsaber wielding character not routinely carry the lightsaber as a matter of course? Obviously you see characters lose theirs or have it confiscated...but I'm pretty sure ever Jedi and sith we see in the films always has their weapon on hand if they can. the choice for a jedi to carry a lightsaber or not is one that the writer of a film can make. there aren't rules, because star wars is not real after all, yoda stopped carrying one. by showing us that luke reconstructed his, that's characterization that basically retcons ROTJ in a confusingly muddy way
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Jun 8, 2018 18:52
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Waffles Inc. posted:Fought Vader? What it isn't is a change in his personality that means he's free from ever doing or thinking bad things again. He doesn't become a different person in between those two scenes; he comes right to the edge of giving into his anger and hatred, sees the danger, realizes there's a better way, and steps back. He triumphs over the dark side in that moment, but that struggle isn't a thing that just ends once you have the right epiphany. Those feelings of anger and hatred, that temptation to take the quick and easy path will come again. It's part of being human. (Since this is a fantasy story about superpowered beings, that struggle is also expressed in a more extreme form than something like "Should I get mad at that bad driver".) Luke fails that test once, in a situation that I don't believe the fight with Vader ever prepared him for - namely, one where he's responsible for the bad guy and can stop all the darkness before it begins. I don't think that condemns him forever as a failure, but the funny thing is, that's exactly what Luke thinks. He's bought so hard into his own myth of being the unfailing Luke Skywalker who saves everyone that it hits him harder than it would for anyone else, and rather than learn from it and try to make amends, he decides he's doing more harm than good and removes himself from the picture. Schwarzwald posted:Leia also had the potential to become a galaxy-threatening force of evil. In fact, it's quite likely that after the events of RotJ and for a significant length of time afterwards, that she would have been the single most influential person in the galaxy. Her potential for evil is even acknowledged by the film; it's the context for that gif Lord Hydronium posted!
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Jun 8, 2018 19:00
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tino posted:You sound like some angst Rion Johnson type who doesn't know anything about history and just randomly make up poo poo from your rear end. Nah.
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Jun 8, 2018 19:07
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actually, upon thinking about it more it's possible we're all totally missing the intended message- Luke isn't flawed because he considered murdering Ben, it's his compassion that is the issue and his error is lacking the conviction of Abraham and being unwilling to immediately follow through on a divine imperative to murder/sacrifice his student (The Force being less compassionate/more inhuman than YHWH) this is far more thematically consistent with the poe/holdo storyline's message of unquestioning obedience to authority (regardless of how inexplicable, self-evidently stupid, or harmful their decisions seem to be) because authority ultimately knows best and all that you must do is follow your duty unto death TLJ is a really bad movie
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Jun 8, 2018 19:08
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Waffles Inc. posted:after all, yoda stopped carrying one. by showing us that luke reconstructed his, that's characterization that basically retcons ROTJ in a confusingly muddy way 
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Jun 8, 2018 19:10
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If Poe hadn't interfered, Holdo's plan would have worked, so long as no one in the imperial fleet looked out the window or pressed the "look for ships" button
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Jun 8, 2018 19:10
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