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Typo posted:this wouldn't have happened if trudeau actually followed up on his promise of electoral reform Which wouldn’t have affected the provincial voting, but ok.
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Jun 8, 2018 16:26
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Risky Bisquick posted:e: Ikantski now you see why I was like >7 or >=7 Yeah but 7.5 for the over-under even bet was perfect, it was close right to the end and it came down to 40 people going one way instead of another. I can't believe another 180 people voting in Wynne's riding could have got her out, I should have been there knocking doors. She won by 181 votes this time. In 2014, she won by 12,000.
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Jun 8, 2018 16:27
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PT6A posted:We've not elected them yet, thank you very much. I wouldn't get so smug about electing a giant conservative moron in another province when your province is about to elect one in a massive Conservative wave in about a year.
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Jun 8, 2018 16:34
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Typo posted:this wouldn't have happened if trudeau actually followed up on his promise of electoral reform How? That was federal, not provincial. Also, municipally in Ontario we already have the option of PR if the municipality endorses it.
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Jun 8, 2018 16:39
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What tone did Horwath have in her speech?
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Jun 8, 2018 16:49
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If nothing else, last night should be a wake-up call for leftists. At this point, we're little more than a bogeyman to be used by centrists and conservatives to scare people into voting for them - we have no political power whatsoever, and few prospects of gaining it anytime soon. 40 years of Conservative efforts to demonize the left have made our positions illegitimate and our leaders unelectable to a large part of the electorate. I don't know what the answer is, but we need to do something to reverse it before the entire Western world turns into a right-winger's wet dream.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:09
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St. Dogbert posted:If nothing else, last night should be a wake-up call for leftists. At this point, we're little more than a bogeyman to be used by centrists and conservatives to scare people into voting for them - we have no political power whatsoever, and few prospects of gaining it anytime soon. I feel like four years of Doug loving Ford will do enough damage to the Conservative brand to make people realize how hollow their brand is.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:15
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I feel like four years of Doug Ford will cause anyone who will admit to voting conservative to double down on their brand loyalty and blame the NDP opposition, the previous Liberal government, and the nebulous "media" for the continued failures of his government
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Jun 8, 2018 17:21
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dev286 posted:I feel like four years of Doug loving Ford will do enough damage to the Conservative brand to make people realize how hollow their brand is. 30% of voters will still turn out for him, at the very least. Then you have to consider the large chunk of Liberal voters who consider the Tories "less extreme" than the NDP somehow, and will either vote PC or stay home if the Liberal candidates look weak - that's enough for a Tory majority every time. The anti-left bias is so strong that the only way for an NDP government to be elected is if there literally isn't any other choice, like in Alberta. I just don't see a way forward for us here. Conservatives seem to have every tool they need to dominate politically for decades to come.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:29
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infernal machines posted:I feel like four years of Doug Ford will cause anyone who will admit to voting conservative to double down on their brand loyalty and blame the NDP opposition, the previous Liberal government, and the nebulous "media" for the continued failures of his government the current economic problems is caused by bob ray
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Jun 8, 2018 17:29
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PR now
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Jun 8, 2018 17:31
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I wish all the people who complained that they "lived through the Rae days" actually didn't survive them.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:41
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Typo posted:the current economic problems is caused by bob ray *zzzap* oh no the economy's been hit by the bob ray!
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Jun 8, 2018 17:49
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Well if President Goodbrains' bullshit national security tariffs stick we can look forward to another recession as what little manufacturing we have left withers and dies.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:54
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DariusLikewise posted:I wouldn't get so smug about electing a giant conservative moron in another province when your province is about to elect one in a massive Conservative wave in about a year. I'll be smug while I can be smug, because I agree with you this is likely to happen.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:55
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PT6A posted:We've not elected them yet, thank you very much. Reminder your province is going to elect a dude who suggested they send in the army to make sure the pipeline is built.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:56
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PT6A posted:I'll be smug while I can be smug, because I agree with you this is likely to happen. Buck up, no matter what Albertans won't elect Doug loving Ford.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:56
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CanPol Megathread: Meet the new Ford. Same as the old Ford.
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Jun 8, 2018 17:59
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infernal machines posted:Buck up, no matter what Albertans won't elect Doug loving Ford. They are going to elect a somewhat competent Doug Ford. I find that a bit more terrifying as the damage they can do will be much worse and longer lasting.
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Jun 8, 2018 18:01
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melon cat posted:I honestly don't understand what the Liberals strategy was this election. Those weird #SorryNorSorry ads, Wynne telling people "If you don't vote, old white people like me are going to", the coup de grace early concession where she basically abandoned the remaining Liberal voters. And her refusal to step down showed an almost sociopathic disconnection with Ontarians. It loving confounds me that an actual team of highly-paid campaign "experts" got together, and thought all of this was a good idea. It was the most brainless campaigns that I had ever seen. Wynne single-handedly sunk the party. Remember when Harper conservatives tried to dogwhistle their way to another majority with “zero tolerance for barbaric cultural practices” and “no face coverings at citizenship ceremonies”
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Jun 8, 2018 18:06
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Cretler posted:It is no surprise that the town responsible for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5dhhT4YWn8 voted PC. I made it to 22 seconds - 7 seconds farther than two-girls-one-cup.
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Jun 8, 2018 18:21
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Hexigrammus posted:I made it to 22 seconds - 7 seconds farther than two-girls-one-cup. I can't believe they paid someone to make this
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Jun 8, 2018 18:23
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St. Dogbert posted:30% of voters will still turn out for him, at the very least. Then you have to consider the large chunk of Liberal voters who consider the Tories "less extreme" than the NDP somehow, and will either vote PC or stay home if the Liberal candidates look weak - that's enough for a Tory majority every time. The anti-left bias is so strong that the only way for an NDP government to be elected is if there literally isn't any other choice, like in Alberta. Yeah Western democracy has just taken a really unforeseen right wing turn that indeed seems really hard to reverse the trend on because thanks tools like social media and right wing media it's pretty easy for these populists to absolutely lie their asses off and say incendiary things that get picked up and become hot topics that then become normally and accepted as an "alternative fact". I feel like somebody has to be influencing some sort of social undercurrent now (probably done casually and subtly via social media) because I keep seeing these topics take hold in peoples mind that you just think shouldn't like the immigration thing specifically and those being made into key issues in deciding votes when they shouldn't be. That populist in Italy got in too and there just seem to be very little of the old familiar consequences for their actions and shortcomings in governing. It's like people are just growing tired of democracy too or something (again for some reason) and just want to tear down all the old institutions with these populist candidates and "shake things up" and I don't really know why. Like we haven't had flawless leaders in the 2000's but I don't really understand what was wrong with the established order and why people seem to be freaking out now and voting in all these cut from a similar cloth right wing populists that are wealthy businessmen who like to agitate about things like immigration and shoring up a global economy that wasn't exactly floundering like it was back in 2008. It just doesn't feel like the right agenda for the time we are (were?)in. Last time there was this much populism sweeping the globe there were special conditions like a brutal post WWI economy in Europe, the great depression and the start of the slow decline of the British Empire. The natural order of the time was just kind of collapsing on it's own, while this one seems to have just been triggered on a whim with no clear sign that things were heading in that direction. The Anti-Wynne sentiment also really reminds me of 2010 when the Democratic Party in the U.S lost control of congress. For just whatever reason, be it the influence of Fox News or constant bleating and lying from the right people were just "pissed off" at the Democratic congress and felt they needed to be punished by getting made the minority. It didn't really make sense to me then and it doesn't make that much sense to me with Wynne either that she just become so unpopular that her party needed to lose official status even. TL;DR I'm really trying to comprehend why suddenly the hot button political issues of the day seem to be things like immigration policy, gender equality (and seemingly trying to reverse the gains of the last 3 decades for disadvantaged groups), "forgotten people", protectionism and all those things that kind of hosed up the late 1930's and led to WWII. Kale fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 18:30
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The global economy is still floundering for anyone who isn't near the top, that's the people who aren't being convinced to go along with the neoliberal order anymore The global economy floundering is also scaring the people who vote the most (the middle class) into supporting the people who will keep the proles and foreigners in line the hardest. And it's only going to get worse with the climate. Denial and nonsense about personal responsibility isn't going to save us even if it makes liberals look good in their own bubbles while they do poo poo like double down on oil extraction. Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Jun 8, 2018 |
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Jun 8, 2018 18:42
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Late stage capitalism has been loving over everyone and hasn't stopped. Centrists are a vote for staying the course. The only things that offer change are the right and left but the left had been systematically suppressed in the west due to the cold war while the establishment has been using and cultivating the right to maintain power and now the chickens have come home to roost.
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Jun 8, 2018 18:58
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St. Dogbert posted:If nothing else, last night should be a wake-up call for leftists. At this point, we're little more than a bogeyman to be used by centrists and conservatives to scare people into voting for them - we have no political power whatsoever, and few prospects of gaining it anytime soon. I'm not sure if this was posted here already, but I found this interview with the author of "The Reactionary Mind" to be surprisingly relevant to the Ontario election, as well as lofty discussions about "leftism". The entire interview is interesting but here are a couple of key exchanges: quote:Chris Hayes: They won. They won all the supply side fights. They privatized everything that could be privatized. They de-regulated everything they could de-regulate. And now here we are, and it's like, what is your project? The only project they have left is to cut corporate taxes. There's nothing left for them to do. They have picked every cherry off the tree, and it stands there bare. Trump and Doug Ford are modern conservatives, in that they're classical reactionaries living in a time when conservatism has already won the main ideological debate over the organization of the economy. Organized labour is gutted, leftist parties chase the political center or are sidelined, privatization of public assets is common and public spending has been slashed about as much as it can without causing social instability. In a way conservatives are in a tricky spot, what do you campaign on when the ostensibly centrist party is already totally on board with selling off the few remaining public assets? Ford can only talk in the vaguest terms about fixing "inefficiencies" to fund his proposed tax breaks because any realistic proposal would be an obvious cut to vital spending. Trump's incoherence as he promised everything to everyone reassured decaying Boomer brains, also the resurgent white nationalism. I also don't know the best way forward for leftists, or what I'm talking about generally. I guess get ready for the next crisis? Capitalism emphatically can't solve the looming ecological disasters, climate change being only the most prominent, so that's one possibility. edit: Late stage capitalism chat!
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Jun 8, 2018 19:24
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Postess with the Mostest posted:Yeah but 7.5 for the over-under even bet was perfect, it was close right to the end and it came down to 40 people going one way instead of another. I can't believe another 180 people voting in Wynne's riding could have got her out, I should have been there knocking doors. It's better this way, she gets to sit in shame in the legislature with Premier Ford.
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Jun 8, 2018 20:02
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Risky Bisquick posted:It's better this way, she gets to sit in shame in the legislature with Premier Ford. The most likely scenario is she resigns from her seat once the polls don't make it look like it could go tory easily and the next OLP leader probably runs in the by election for Don Valley.
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Jun 8, 2018 20:07
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https://twitter.com/mbarber86/status/1005149345749102592
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Jun 8, 2018 20:17
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Jun 8, 2018 20:21
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Jun 8, 2018 20:28
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Yeah, I don't know what it is about on the fence liberals that think the way to go is PC, I mean, the whole thing about conservatives is the sell anything and everything that isn't nailed down and run the coffers dry via restriction. I had one tosser on facebook I added from my internship, but I kept him around because he is the poster boy for being against his own interests. He was so happy Doug Ford won, spoke up all of his favourite talking points and ended it with "but they better not touch my free education." He wants to keep other people down, he was pissed at the $14 min wage increase because HE was making $14 doing something with his education you see, and that's different, but HE didn't get a raise. But I'm fair confident, even if the PCs take away his free education he will always vote for them, because he just hates seeing other people get opportunities "they didn't work for it, b-b-b-but my free education."
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Jun 8, 2018 20:29
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lmao
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Jun 8, 2018 20:34
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Syfe posted:Yeah, I don't know what it is about on the fence liberals that think the way to go is PC, I mean, the whole thing about conservatives is the sell anything and everything that isn't nailed down and run the coffers dry via restriction. Canadian liberals have an almost religious belief in public-private partnerships and privatization being an ideal solution for a lot of poo poo, they're just less loud and universalizing about it than the tories. Also like, the federal and provincial lib parties literally spent decades banging on about balanced budgets, to the point of dipping in social service funds to get there. Is it that hard to see how this kind of hegemonic thinking might get the real middle class people to think the tories are just one step removed?
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Jun 8, 2018 20:38
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the cynical take is that the liberals and tories are two sides of the same coin, which makes the deep hatred of one party while voting for the other very funny. yes, they will spar over social issues constantly, but much like other conflicts within our current cultural space - the 'classical liberals' vs the 'SJWs' you see online - this is liberalism at war with itself, with the dividing lines around how and where the limits of things like universal rights should be defined, or how best to raise good liberal subjects. In comparison to the vast economic and environmental problems facing our society these aren't terribly important, unless you happen to be on the margins of liberal society in which case they could be extremely important. Hence you see a lot of friction between people on the left, one liberal, the other more critical of liberalism on the importance of these social issues and how it feeds into things like intersectionality, identity politics, and equality. the right tends not to see, or care about these very real divisions, so they get sidelined in electoral politics because everyone wants power along the axis of these social issues. a whiff of anti-capitalist sentiment is electoral suicide because the markets will start tanking and people with investments will start leaning hard with any influence they have to get these morons shut up. credit where credit is due, at least the parties with platforms this election cycle proposed real, substantial improvements in our healthcare and early education systems. whether or not those would have materialized is an entirely different matter of course, but they were there. And duly rejected by the electorate, of course.
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Jun 8, 2018 20:52
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Hexigrammus posted:I made it to 22 seconds - 7 seconds farther than two-girls-one-cup. That's too bad, you just missed the guy who loves the hydro pole.
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Jun 8, 2018 21:05
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Dreylad posted:the cynical take is that the liberals and tories are two sides of the same coin, which makes the deep hatred of one party while voting for the other very funny. yes, they will spar over social issues constantly, but much like other conflicts within our current cultural space - the 'classical liberals' vs the 'SJWs' you see online - this is liberalism at war with itself, with the dividing lines around how and where the limits of things like universal rights should be defined, or how best to raise good liberal subjects. Two sides of the same coin maybe, but the differences ends up being at bare minimum this. PC: We're the face eating leopards, yep Lib: We're face eating leopards, but we've put in place minimal support systems for (middle class) victims of face eating. I'll always take the Liberals meager handouts vs the PCs FYGM in it's entirety, I'll agree that there is very little difference, but there is some difference. The problem is indeed that neither party actually wants to deal with the issues that we actually face as a society.
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Jun 8, 2018 21:10
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Kale posted:Yeah Western democracy has just taken a really unforeseen right wing turn that indeed seems really hard to reverse the trend on because thanks tools like social media and right wing media it's pretty easy for these populists to absolutely lie their asses off and say incendiary things that get picked up and become hot topics that then become normally and accepted as an "alternative fact". I feel like somebody has to be influencing some sort of social undercurrent now (probably done casually and subtly via social media) because I keep seeing these topics take hold in peoples mind that you just think shouldn't like the immigration thing specifically and those being made into key issues in deciding votes when they shouldn't be. The right wing framing of stuff has Just Won. Was talking to a french friend today and he said he voted for the disgraced neoliberal "socialist" party in the french election because Melenchon (a watered down Keynesian of the type that ran most western democracies just a few decades ago) was "too far left" for him. The end result was him having to choose between a right winger (Macron) and a far right winger (Le Pen) in the runoff, both of whom he detested.
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Jun 8, 2018 21:18
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Syfe posted:Two sides of the same coin maybe, but the differences ends up being at bare minimum this. I'd categorize those meager offerings in the realm of the social issue axis (again, that's not dismissing them as unimportant, but operating under a different set of assumptions) because the conservatives will also offer minimal support systems of another kind. Both are targeted at each party's base imo. But overall I agree with what you're saying, I just don't believe that the Liberals will follow through with some of the good things they offer if they can get away with it any more than I think that Doug Ford is really going to deal with Hydro One beyond finish privatizing it.
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Jun 8, 2018 21:19
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I think my favourite PC talking point is "more of your money in your hands, not ours". When what they really mean is "we're offering tax cuts to businesses and we know they won't pass that onto workers in the slightest. but hey, we at least kept the promise that it wasn't in "our" hands." (board composed of ex-PC/Lib MPs who've reentered "private sector" work they prepared for themselves)
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Jun 8, 2018 21:24
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