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PostNouveau posted:Mustache-twirling villainy from the look of it. Lindsey Ellis had a pretty good video about it, calling it Ur-Fascism. Being really bad isn’t a belief system. Neither the republic or the FO seem to be fighting for anything in particular, other than control. Which is probably why no one seems to care who wins outside of those two.
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Jun 12, 2018 06:17
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I'm sympathetic to people being confused about the state of the Resistance, the actual scope of power and governance of the First Order, the strange character choices for people like Maz, the blank character slate of Rey, etc etc, because the movie is really lazy about hashing things out and pretty much not interested in much more beyond spectacle.
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Jun 12, 2018 06:23
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Again, why is anyone finding a resistance against a thing nobody apparently knows about or takes seriously? It's all stupid nonsense, but you're pretty much in "head-canon" territory here. This poo poo isn't very complicated: quote:Following the Battle of Jakku, Grand Vizier Mas Amedda and the New Republic Chancellor Mon Mothma signed the Galactic Concordance, which dissolved the Imperial government. Mothma then issued another declaration designating all surviving Imperial officers as war criminals. In response, many Imperial nobles, technologists, warlords, and officers fled the Empire into the Unknown Regions in an effort to escape the prying eyes of the New Republic. They used information derived from Grand Admiral Thrawn[ who hailed from the Chiss Ascendancy, and the survey teams and droids that Emperor Sheev Palpatine had sent to explore the Unknown Regions. At the request of the dying Counselor to the Empire Gallius Rax, Grand Admiral Rae Sloane, and Commandant Brendol Hux rendezvoused with the Super Star Destroyer Eclipse. Sloane saw an opportunity to rebuild the Empire. Since nobody wants to read all this poo poo: Space Nazis were defeated. Many of the remaining Space Nazis hosed off to Space Antarctica with a poo poo-ton of gear, ships and knowledge. There they started to rebuilt, while Space Allies ignored them. Over time more Alt-Right Space Nazis joined the old timey Space Nazis with even more stuff, money and power. The New Republic didn't want to appear military at all and without much of a Navy or Army they were unable and unwilling to do much against the increasingly aggressive First Order (the usual "democracy is unable to defend itself, weak and cowardly" poo poo Fascists love to sprout). Since the Republic didn't do anything, Leia and her allies started their own private military and private war against the First Order (supplied by supporters in the Republic).
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Jun 12, 2018 06:46
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Massive war machines don't come out nowhere without anyone's knowledge. Previous movies even showed what it takes to covertly build a galactic military force in secret: erasing a planet from the maps. I think it's worth pointing out that it is a plot point in The Force Awakens that only the First Order has a complete map, which they took from the Imperial Archives. (R2-D2 had a copy of most of it and then went into a coma. Most likely Luke deleted the section of the map that he was hiding in, copying the old Kamino trick. Apparently the Millennium Falcon's navigational computer is also extremely thorough, which I haven't fully made sense of.) The First Order's existence isn't a secret, but Starkiller Base was a secret. I don't think it's that they control most of the galaxy as it is that they could strike with impunity throughout most of the galaxy (after Hosnian, all of it). The difference is the extent to which their force leads to political power. It does not appear to me that they have consolidated their rule. Nazis were fairly popular historically, of course. Hell, they're pretty popular today. But the First Order still thought of itself as distinct from the Republic, and it came to power through a coup d'etat, rather than through an election as fascists have often done. They clearly do have support, but for them to have chosen war, and to view the apparatus of the Republic's government as an impediment to their aims rather than a tool they can use to achieve them, is an indication of what kind of support they have.
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Jun 12, 2018 07:24
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CelticPredator posted:He made a near perfect movie so I don’t know what the gently caress you’re on about CelticPredator posted:Yeah. It’s amazing. And it killed the hopes and dreams of star war fans? My god, it’s done more good than most movies! Someday you actually have to justify calling it a great movie instead of making Eeyore-like posts about how unappreciated it is by those terrible fans.
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Jun 12, 2018 09:25
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Van Dis posted:I'm sympathetic to people being confused about the state of the Resistance, the actual scope of power and governance of the First Order, the strange character choices for people like Maz, the blank character slate of Rey, etc etc, because the movie is really lazy about hashing things out and pretty much not interested in much more beyond spectacle. The scripts were written by a bunch of history ignorant Hollywood liberals. The fact that they think totalitarian governments buy weapon from weapon dealers is just so cringe. No totalitarian governments deal with resource extraction and make their own weapons. What is this child fantasy is even about. I think the script committee came up with Maz Kanata because they were ordered to make a Yoda-like character.
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Jun 12, 2018 12:14
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PostNouveau posted:Yeah, I hope it's good. If you look at the disaster that is the DC movies and the pretty inconsistent quality of Marvel movies, Star Wars is doing really well to have the majority of the new films get good reviews and one off them getting a ton of love from the fanbase even if its underappreciated by critics who have mostly written lazy reviews of what they think the movie should or shouldn't be. Why do people think that Rey, the first Jedi trainee to actually actively question the order of things and how her actions can affect the world around her while in a film, is a flat character? tadashi fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 12:35
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tino posted:The scripts were written by a bunch of history ignorant Hollywood liberals. The fact that they think totalitarian governments buy weapon from weapon dealers is just so cringe. No totalitarian governments deal with resource extraction and make their own weapons. What is this child fantasy is even about.
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Jun 12, 2018 12:39
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The idea that totalitarian governments always make all their own weapons is bizarre (plenty of western arms dealers make bank selling to them in the real world). And the First Order didn't even start out as a 'government' in any case. I didn't think that was actually a serious post. At least not the first part.
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Jun 12, 2018 12:41
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I liked someone's early read that Snoke is basically space wizard Jordan Peterson and Ben started watching his videos. Hmm, work out to keep a healthy body, yeah. Make sure my environment is clean, yeah. Work on my own personal skills for self fulfillment, yeah. Darth Vader right. Kill you're parents, yeah. This guy's making a lot of sense!
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Jun 12, 2018 12:44
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I don't think it's meant to be a direct analogy but Kylo Ren does have that weak and insecure mindset that's easily seduced by ideologies offering validation.
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Jun 12, 2018 12:51
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People projecting paranoia about Alt-Right onto the character is still the funniest thing. It's an admission that the heroes are so incompetent that they're almost destroyed by internet trolls. tadashi posted:Why do people think that Rey, the first Jedi trainee to actually actively question the order of things and how her actions can affect the world around her while in a film, is a flat character? Anakin Skywalker already did that. Rey is a flat character because she's only ever acting either vague sense of necessity or in reaction to something. All of her strenuous objections and demand give th impression that she doesn't really feel strongly about anything in particular, but acts passionate because she's supposed to. And she's an absolute dullard. Remember that when confronted by the Dark Side, something that is able to realize her darkest desires, she was unable to fantasize about anything but herself. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 12:56
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:People projecting paranoia about Alt-Right onto the character is still the funniest thing. Nah it's just funny to imagine Kylo Ren telling all his knights they gotta check out this guys videos and Luke noticing subtle changes that makes him worried
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Jun 12, 2018 13:01
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A.I. Borgland Corp posted:Nah it's just funny to imagine Kylo Ren telling all his knights they gotta check out this guys videos and Luke noticing subtle changes that makes him worried Sorry, no humor allowed. BravestOfTheLamps posted:Anakin Skywalker already did that. quote:And she's an absolute dullard. Remember that when confronted by the Dark Side, something that is able to realize her darkest desires, she was unable to fantasize about anything but herself. She says "I need someone to show me my place in all this". And then the cave shows her herself, not someone else. tadashi fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 13:21
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tadashi posted:Was entirely driven by wanting to gently caress Natalie Portman and never once reflected on his actions and their relationship to the force except when side-coached by Sidious. I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to argue here. Are you saying that Anakin Skywalker is a flat character because he has romantic interests and is flawed? tadashi posted:She says "I need someone to show me my place in all this". And then the cave shows her herself, not someone else. Well yeah. Since the Dark Side reflects fear and desire, it's only reflecting her own fear and desires. She's so dull that she can't imagine anything else.
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Jun 12, 2018 13:33
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to argue here. Are you saying that Anakin Skywalker is a flat character because he has romantic interests and is flawed? I said she's trying to understand her relationship to the events around her. You said Anakin did that. What I'm saying is Anakin is all smash first ask questions later and his only real motivation we can see is that he wants to be with Padme. quote:
Rey's greatest fear is that there is no one else to rely on except herself, that's why she sees herself reflected back at her. It's similar to Luke facing his own self doubt. I'm just copying what Johnson has said here and it makes sense. Rey doesn't really have a lot "to do" in TLJ other than interact with Skywalker and train and then go try to save her friends. In TFA, I think her chemistry with the people around her was a breath of fresh air and, while she may be wide-eyed at times, she is definitely driven by empathy for other people along with her own motivations for wanting to explore her relationship to Kylo and the wider galaxy around her that she's finally able to interact with for the first time. tadashi fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 13:47
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tadashi posted:Why do people think that Rey, the first Jedi trainee to actually actively question the order of things and how her actions can affect the world around her while in a film, is a flat character? Luke does as well, especially in Empire, but Empire is pretty clear that he's making the wrong choice as he plunges headlong into a trap and doesn't really improve the situation for his friends. But I watched Empire and Jedi recently particularly looking for what Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted him to do about Vader. They're super vague, mostly saying he needs to "confront" him, but there is a definite exchange that goes Luke: I can't kill my father Obi-Wan: Then we're hosed His plan to turn Vader goes against everything the Jedi have been saying about the Sith being irredeemable. It's also exactly Rey's plan in TLJ.
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Jun 12, 2018 14:03
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PostNouveau posted:I'm just gonna start bolding the stuff you're pulling out of your rear end, feel free to come up with any evidence whatsoever. Again, the neo-Stormtrooper army is directly analogous to the Clone army. The characters themselves make that comparison. They certainly number in the hundreds of millions. In charge of those neo-Stormtroopers, we obviously have millions more like Hux. Let’s round it up to at least one billion people. That’s a conservative estimate - and yet that is just the First Order’s military. We don’t even see the average First Order citizens who grow the food and mass-produce the helmets or whatever. But they certainly exist. In TFA, there is a huge network of First Order spies. FN is terrified by the absolute certainty that they will run into First Order sympathizers at Max’s Castle. People have a lot of sympathy for Snoke. Next film, DJ carefully explains that there is no real difference between the First Order and Republic, as far as anyone’s concerned, except that the Republic is incredibly ineffectual. Worlds not directly controlled by Snoke still want his business, because he can actually pay them. Example: DJ actually gets paid. PostNouveau posted:It seems like there's a need here to justify anyone's failure as being rooted in some kind of moral shortcoming. Luke’s new Jedi temple had 12 students. Apparently over half of them freely decided the Republic was poo poo, joined the First Order, and became the Knights of Ren. Snoke’s hugely successful populist movement is obviously popular. The only counterarguments are transparently nonsensical EU horseshit (Grand Vizier Mas Amedda? The Hollow Earth theory that the Nazis escaped to Antarctica?), or the insistence that good guys are just good and we shouldn’t question them.
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Jun 12, 2018 14:04
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The First Order is literally just the Empire with a military that is willing to be more cruel to achieve their ends of total domination of the galaxy. The hard part about just ruling is that true justice is complicated and there will always be people willing to exploit that process to their own ends. Authoritative ruling doesn't have to be popular, you just have to give people the sense that what they do doesn't matter but they will be left alone as long as they stick to themselves and don't upset the rule of law. [E: Go ahead and vote for Harambe, because your vote doesn't matter!] Being allowed to live is pretty strong motivation.
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Jun 12, 2018 14:31
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It doesn’t have to be popular, but then Palpatine’s Empire was also extremely popular.
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Jun 12, 2018 14:41
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Again, the neo-Stormtrooper army is directly analogous to the Clone army. The characters themselves make that comparison. They certainly number in the hundreds of millions. In charge of those neo-Stormtroopers, we obviously have millions more like Hux. Let’s round it up to at least one billion people. When does a character talk about the size of the first order army? Also, they're kidnapping and brainwashing people, not recruiting them. Droids could do all the other work, and you could buy yourself a spy network. You're really seeing that the first order is well-funded, not necessarily super popular. The kids leaving Luke don't leave to join the first order, they leave in the aftermath of Luke looking like he tried to kill Ben, and they leave with Ben to start some kind of paramilitary group the nature of which hasn't been explained.
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Jun 12, 2018 14:45
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I thought the idea behind the Knights of Ren was that Snoke corrupted Kylo who then left with a bunch of Luke's students the night Luke tried to kill him?SuperMechagodzilla posted:It doesn’t have to be popular, but then Palpatine’s Empire was also extremely popular. Sort of. When you kill everyone who opposes you and then manipulate the public to believe a regime is popular, even where it isn't, then it's going to seem extremely popular. This is how fascist regimes work. tadashi fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 14:49
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tadashi posted:I thought the idea behind the Knights of Ren was that Snoke corrupted Kylo who then left with a bunch of Luke's students the night Luke tried to kill him? Yeah, that's about it. But we don't know what the Knights of Ren are, what Kylo told them they'd do or if they worked for the first order. It's a personal conflict, not a rejection of the republic.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:05
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PostNouveau posted:When does a character talk about the size of the first order army? Also, they're kidnapping and brainwashing people, not recruiting them. Droids could do all the other work, and you could buy yourself a spy network. You're really seeing that the first order is well-funded, not necessarily super popular. The characters in the film say that their army is like the Clone army (AKA The Grand Army of the Republic) but better. That’s in the film. Now you’re saying that maybe Snoke has an offscreen army of billions of robots, which built more robots that kidnap and brainwash children. So Snoke took over the entire galaxy with fewer ‘real’ supporters than the population of Saskatchewan, Canada. That’s not in the film.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:07
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The characters in the film say that their army is like the Clone army (AKA The Grand Army of the Republic) but better. They call it alike in size or in quality? None of this is in the film, but if there's an alternate explanation to your completely batshit "The First Order is realllllllly popular" theory, it's probably about as valid since there's no evidence for either. I don't think the filmmakers though too much about this, because they're telling a big broad story and didn't put a lot of thought into "how do we let everyone know the Republic is good and the First Order is bad?" Because, you know, even small children can tell through the music cues and actions of the characters and the things that the characters say which side is good and which side is bad. You'll notice this forum and like 3 posters in it is, like, the only place where anyone is saying poo poo like that. PostNouveau fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 15:11
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There is def evidence of the FOs popularity. As was mentioned you can draw a strong inference they are popular from the fact that the resistance is radically unpopular.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:17
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euphronius posted:There is def evidence of the FOs popularity. As was mentioned you can draw a strong inference they are popular from the fact that the resistance is radically unpopular. Counter-point: the American political system. Just because one side is unpopular doesn't make the other side popular. And just because nobody comes to the aide of the Resistance doesn't make them unpopular. It could mean everybody else is loving running for their lives, too.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:35
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tadashi posted:Sort of. When you kill everyone who opposes you and then manipulate the public to believe a regime is popular, even where it isn't, then it's going to seem extremely popular. This is how fascist regimes work. PostNouveau posted:When does a character talk about the size of the first order army? Also, they're kidnapping and brainwashing people, not recruiting them. Droids could do all the other work, and you could buy yourself a spy network. You're really seeing that the first order is well-funded, not necessarily super popular. (Remember when a teenage Luke Skywalker said that he hated the government, but didn't feel like it was his problem? And he also wanted to join the military? This is entirely normal from an American point of view. Perhaps many people living under the First Order don't like the government, but are jingoistic military-worshipers who don't want to join a rag-tag Republic that can barely stand on its own legs.) The politics of the sequel trilogy are so incoherent that you can't really make sense of it without making some reasonable assumptions based on the text. It's easy to make the assumption that the Rebellion overthrew the empire, established a New Republic, and is now dealing with a rump state calling itself the First Order. My understanding is that that's how it works with the Imperial Remnant in ye olde Expanded Universe, but you won't find it in Episodes 7-8. The truth is closer to the opposite. What is in the films is that the Rebellion assassinated the Emperor, blew up his new wunderwaffe base, and hastily established a provisional government in the style of the Old Republic. They're supporting a partisan movement called the Resistance that's fighting the Empire, reorganized as the First Order. But the First Order REIGNS. (Also, the New Republic leadership and the Resistance are desperate to find the self-exiled Luke Skywalker. I'm not sure why. I guess they regard him as an inspirational Ho Chi Minh sort of figure.)
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Jun 12, 2018 15:36
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tadashi posted:Counter-point: the American political system. Just because one side is unpopular doesn't make the other side popular. And just because nobody comes to the aide of the Resistance doesn't make them unpopular. It could mean everybody else is loving running for their lives, too. Possible. They seem pretty happy on Canto Bight tho
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Jun 12, 2018 15:37
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Halloween Jack posted:The First Order's big military assembly is clearly meant to evoke the Nuremberg Rally, and the Nazi government had broad popular support. Evoke doesn't mean completely equate. The rally is shorthand for "Evil guys are doing some evil poo poo like the Nazis did" and then they blow up 5 planets. quote:They have a huge fleet, and implicitly the infrastructure to support that fleet. It's just meaningless in a universe where droid labor is abundant. The Trade Federation has a huge army too, but they seem to be about 5 dudes total. quote:The politics of the sequel trilogy are so incoherent that you can't really make sense of it without making some reasonable assumptions based on the text. On this, we agree. These movies aren't really concerned with the political stuff, they're more about internal and interpersonal conflicts. With so little to go on, it's baffling to choose "Everybody loves the spaces nazis and hates the space liberals."
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Jun 12, 2018 15:44
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You can read how you want but there is evidence for the claims . That’s all.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:45
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euphronius posted:You can read how you want but there is evidence for the claims . That’s all. Yeah, I'm starting to see how one can take a super-thin scrap of information that's open to wide interpretation and claim it as complete proof of humongous changes in the story structure.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:53
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All we're really told about the size of the FO is that it's "more powerful" than the Empire which could mean Starkiller base plus the army/navy is more powerful than what the Empire created. You'd think it would have to be larger to be considered more of a military threat. Also, if the FO went outside the galaxy, then came back in, you'd think they'd have more control over the outer rim than the Empire did. Of course, there's also the Baghdad strategy in which you just go for the heart of the thing as quickly as possible and work backward.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:54
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No one said complete proof . Which is a ridiculous standard.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:54
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What we know: The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys the merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy. Only General Leia Organa's band of RESISTANCE fighters stand against the rising tyranny,
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Jun 12, 2018 16:00
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PostNouveau posted:They call it alike in size or in quality? Both. The First Order‘s military, just on its own, is absolutely ridiculous in scope. Their Death Star is ten times the size of the Empire’s Death Star. Snoke’s ship is three times bigger than Vader’s. Humans built those things, not robots: “This fierce machine which you have built, upon which we stand, will bring an end to the Senate!” A slave army doesn’t run itself. There are massive amounts of people supporting Snoke. Again, there are only around 50 Republican worlds out of 1000 in the Republic. I’d wager that Snoke directly controls 500 of them, plus sympathetic planets and other allies.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:01
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PostNouveau posted:Yeah, I'm starting to see how one can take a super-thin scrap of information that's open to wide interpretation and claim it as complete proof of humongous changes in the story structure. The Republic consists of thousands of worlds (in 1977 this was apparently 24,372 star systems with representation). That would equal trillions of people. The First Order has the manpower to seize control of the galaxy in a matter of days, and reign over trillions of people without meaningful challenge. They're not an unpopular fringe movement. tadashi posted:I said she's trying to understand her relationship to the events around her. You said Anakin did that. What I'm saying is Anakin is all smash first ask questions later and his only real motivation we can see is that he wants to be with Padme. You seem to pay attention to if characters visibly think hard enough rather than what they think or end up doing. This is how you're convinced that Rey breaks traditions, even though she ends up doing exactly the same thing as Luke Skywalker. Anakin is the one who questions and breaks Jedi tradition, including by getting married. And Rey's greatest fear is not having to rely on herself alone. She is an adult who's perfectly capable of relying on herself alone. That's how she's lived her life.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:10
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In fairness, Snoke is a pretty cool guy.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:11
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PostNouveau posted:I don't think the filmmakers though too much about this, because they're telling a big broad story and didn't put a lot of thought into "how do we let everyone know the Republic is good and the First Order is bad?" Because, you know, even small children can tell through the music cues and actions of the characters and the things that the characters say which side is good and which side is bad. quote:On this, we agree. These movies aren't really concerned with the political stuff, they're more about internal and interpersonal conflicts. quote:It's just meaningless in a universe where droid labor is abundant. The Trade Federation has a huge army too, but they seem to be about 5 dudes total. "A fascist government controls lots of territory and is popular" is much simpler to infer from the text than your idea of a small number of people running a galactic empire thanks to droid labour. That just doesn't show up anywhere else in Star Wars and doesn't make sense in these films either.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:26
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The Republic consists of thousands of worlds (in 1977 this was apparently 24,372 star systems with representation). That would equal trillions of people. Like I said, what I said about Rey is from Johnson. She is afraid that there's no one out there for her to ever rely on. She's lived her whole life believing her parents would return to save her. On a separate note, if Star Wars fans are any indication, it is clear that the First Order came to power thanks to the popularity of intergalactic Whataboutism. tadashi fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 16:48
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