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yeah they are.
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Jun 12, 2018 13:06
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Syzygy Stardust posted:Alito’s opinion covers that - actually, they’re not. Breyer's an actual jurist while the only reason Alito's the second most worthless hack to be sat on the court in living memory is because of Gorsuch
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Jun 12, 2018 13:09
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*the second amendment wasn't written to enshrine an individual right to firearms and over two centuries of jurisprudence agreed* "BUT SCALIA SAID IT DID" - syzygy stardust
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Jun 12, 2018 13:13
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mdemone posted:H-h-h-holy poo poo I see that my earlier evaluation of that poster was right on the money. Mr. Nice! posted:Breyers’ dissent covers all of that. The ultimate point is they’re removing people for failure to vote which is in direct violation of the NVRA. And they effectively nullified the power of the act, rather similar to what they did with the VRA.
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Jun 12, 2018 13:33
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exploded mummy posted:Ultimately it comes down to a proof of residency. Tax records, social security records, and deployment records aren't really great proofs of residency. Neither is sending people one piece of junk mail, in fact the false-positive rate is overwhelming, Breyer covered this in his dissent. It is disenfranchising overseas veterans, with little if any benefit.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:22
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An ohio GiP poster and veteran was removed from the rolls for this and never got the postcard.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:35
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A question about the voter purge bit - Why does anyone care about the theoretical right of people to (a) not vote and (b) stay on the rolls? If you aren't voting...you aren't voting? Aside for Washington: It's amazing that that case essentially dates all the way back to the 1970s and 1980s; I never would have expected that Kennedy would be recused from any cases in the 21st century.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:40
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ulmont posted:A question about the voter purge bit - Why does anyone care about the theoretical right of people to (a) not vote and (b) stay on the rolls? Because there's no notification of voter roll removal and often times voters do not know they've been removed until they go to cast a vote and find out they cannot. Ohio, like many states, does not do same day voter registration. It's a tactic specifically used to disenfranchise voters. Sotomayor's dissent explains the way laws like Ohio's were first conceptualized during Jim Crow and how the VRA and NVRA were in direct response to states' continued shitheadedness. And this happens fast, in the sense of election frequency. If you miss the two midterms around a presidential election and the presidential election (like say tea party wave, second obama vote, and 2014 midterms) then suddenly you were prevented from voting in the Clinton/Trump election. You are right, though, that if people voted more this wouldn't be an issue, but at the same time we have one major party in the country working constantly to prevent people that vote against them from voting at all. Mr. Nice! fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 15:42
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ulmont posted:A question about the voter purge bit - Why does anyone care about the theoretical right of people to (a) not vote and (b) stay on the rolls? Because sometimes that person decides to vote and are disenfranchised because they've been removed from the rolls without their knowledge, and this is not theoretical. If there were same-day registration this wouldn't be a problem, but guess what, there's not because keeping people from voting is the point. Why should constitutional rights be use-it-or-lose-it
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Jun 12, 2018 15:49
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ulmont posted:A question about the voter purge bit - Why does anyone care about the theoretical right of people to (a) not vote and (b) stay on the rolls? Because it's a loving right? This is the literal cornerstone of democracy, and it's being stripped from people because they missed a piece of junk mail. That's without even addressing that it's legislation that very clearly has a disproportionate impact on minorities and the impoverished. Why are you so unconcerned about this?
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Jun 12, 2018 15:54
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News article linked by VitalSigns' posted:The outcome will directly affect Ohio and six other states that have similar laws — Georgia, Montana, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania and West Virginia. More than a dozen other states have indicated they would like to adopt the same system. 
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Jun 12, 2018 15:59
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ulmont posted:A question about the voter purge bit - Why does anyone care about the theoretical right of people to (a) not vote and (b) stay on the rolls? We should adopt the same logic for all other rights. Don't own a firearm for a year or two? Lol, sorry, there's a long long long process to even be eligible to buy a gun. Haven't responded to government mail about your privacy? Sorry, we don't need warrants for you anymore, please apply to get those rights back. Haven't written an oped? Shucks, I guess we need to have you apply for this permit to even try to do so, free speech is only for those that use it every week. Don't want to be tortured? You should have notified us! Too late now, I suppose. Maybe next time?
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Jun 12, 2018 16:16
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Mr. Nice! posted:And this happens fast, in the sense of election frequency. If you miss the two midterms around a presidential election and the presidential election (like say tea party wave, second obama vote, and 2014 midterms) then suddenly you were prevented from voting in the Clinton/Trump election. That doesn't seem fast to me. That would have been somewhere between 8 and 12 elections minimum where all a person had to do was cast a single vote to stay on the rolls. Hell, I have voted 5 times post Clinton/Trump and we're not even 2 years on. Keeshhound posted:Because it's a loving right? This is the literal cornerstone of democracy, and it's being stripped from people because they missed a piece of junk mail. No. These people were not, by definition, voting. If they gave a poo poo about democracy, they would vote more than once every 8? (we know it's more than 6 based on how Ohio's process works) years.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:17
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ulmont posted:That doesn't seem fast to me. That would have been somewhere between 8 and 12 elections minimum where all a person had to do was cast a single vote to stay on the rolls. Hell, I have voted 5 times post Clinton/Trump and we're not even 2 years on. what the gently caress is this
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Jun 12, 2018 16:19
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Keeshhound posted:Because it's a loving right? This is the literal cornerstone of democracy, and it's being stripped from people because they missed a piece of junk mail. That's without even addressing that it's legislation that very clearly has a disproportionate impact on minorities and the impoverished. Under the Ohio law, it takes 6 years of not voting and ignoring a government request for verification to get deregistered. In Ohio, you can check your registration status online and it takes literally 5 minutes to register. If you're even running into these barriers, you care so little about your right to vote that I have no idea why anyone else should care on your behalf or why the government should change it's procedure to cater to you.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:19
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what the gently caress is happening in this thread 
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Jun 12, 2018 16:20
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Mr. Nice! posted:An ohio GiP poster and veteran was removed from the rolls for this and never got the postcard. The Ohio process to deregister takes years longer then an entire standard enlistment.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:22
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ulmont posted:That doesn't seem fast to me. That would have been somewhere between 8 and 12 elections minimum where all a person had to do was cast a single vote to stay on the rolls. Hell, I have voted 5 times post Clinton/Trump and we're not even 2 years on. So we should deprive people of their right to vote to teach them a lesson about giving a poo poo about democracy. Ooooookay.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:22
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Oh you wanted to be secure in your person, house, papers, and effects from unreasonable search and seizure? Well if you cared about that you would have been more diligent about sorting your mail, we sent you one postcard one time maybe if it didn't get lost, and we never heard back so I guess you didn't want those constitutional rights after all!
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Jun 12, 2018 16:24
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VitalSigns posted:So we should deprive people of their right to vote to teach them a lesson about giving a poo poo about democracy. Ooooookay. The case comes up demanding that people who do not vote stay on the rolls so they can...keep not voting. I do not see the point. VitalSigns posted:Oh you wanted to be secure in your person, house, papers, and effects from unreasonable search and seizure? Well if you cared about that you would have been more diligent about sorting your mail, we sent you one postcard one time maybe if it didn't get lost, and we never heard back so I guess you didn't want those constitutional rights after all! This and the related analogies in the past few posts are both severely tortured and ignoring the existence of expiring passports, concealed carry licenses, and FCC licenses. A closer analogy, although even there massively strained, would have been something about not locking your door for 6 years. ulmont fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 16:24
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I think this is what Great Again America looks like.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:24
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botany posted:what the gently caress is happening in this thread And people say I'm being alarmist when I say that small reductions in rights lead to bigger infringements.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:25
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ulmont posted:The case comes up demanding that people who do not vote stay on the rolls so they can...keep not voting. I do not see the point. I've already linked you a guy who wanted to vote and couldn't, he didn't want to stay on the rolls to "keep not voting", so you are just being disingenuous about the effects of this policy. E: Also you're ignoring that since the gutting of the VRA, state governments have been notoriously finding ways to discourage people from voting, so it's also disingenuous to assume that people who aren't voting in the face of barriers to exercising the franchise "don't care about democracy"
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Jun 12, 2018 16:27
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ulmont posted:A question about the voter purge bit - Why does anyone care about the theoretical right of people to (a) not vote and (b) stay on the rolls? Jethro fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 16:29
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VitalSigns posted:I've already linked you a guy who wanted to vote and couldn't, he didn't want to stay on the rolls to "keep not voting", so you are just being disingenuous about the effects of this policy. I looked at your article, the Supreme Court opinion, and the 6th circuit below. The court challenges were squarely facial and do not discuss the facts of any particular individual. The article asserts that Larry Harmon was removed from the rolls sometime before 2015, and wanted to vote in 2015, but provides no further details.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:30
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ulmont posted:I looked at your article, the Supreme Court opinion, and the 6th circuit below. The court challenges were squarely facial and do not discuss the facts of any particular individual. You weren't making an argument about the court cases, you were making a normative case that people shouldn't be allowed to vote if they don't meet some arbitrary standard of caring about democracy which includes making sure a postcard makes its way to them while they're deployed for some reason.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:32
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VitalSigns posted:You weren't making an argument about the court cases, you were making a normative case that people shouldn't be allowed to vote if they don't meet some arbitrary standard of caring about democracy which includes making sure a postcard makes its way to them while they're deployed for some reason. My normative case is that it is not the end of the republic is people who don't vote are removed from the rolls, and that not voting in any election in 6 years means you don't vote. The postcard does not matter to me at all.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:34
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maybe they sat out elections cuz their state was too red and now it looks like a dem vote would make a difference? the onus should be on the state to justify purging not on the citizen having to justify their franchise.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:36
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ulmont posted:My normative case is that it is not the end of the republic is people who don't vote are removed from the rolls, and that not voting in any election in 6 years means you don't vote. The postcard does not matter to me at all. OK well it is literally against the law to remove people from the rolls for not voting, and you haven't been able to come up with a good reason to do it except "they suck anyway", so thanks for your dumb anti-democracy opinions. And just lol at liberals jumping on board with GOP voter suppression of Democrats' own voter base because the desire to win elections is dwarfed by their contempt for the proles.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:39
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ulmont posted:No. These people were not, by definition, voting. If they gave a poo poo about democracy, they would vote more than once every 8? (we know it's more than 6 based on how Ohio's process works) years. The franchise should only be extended to those who use it?
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Jun 12, 2018 16:40
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All constitutional rights are now use-it-or-lose-it Take away all guns from anyone who hasn't shot it during wartime at a Tory or Loyalist in the past 10 years
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Jun 12, 2018 16:46
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...And if there's no election you care about for an arbitrary period of time, you lose the right to vote in one you do care about? This is the stupidest poo poo I've ever seen in D&D or anywhere else
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Jun 12, 2018 16:48
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moths posted:This is the stupidest poo poo I've ever seen in D&D or anywhere else You must have missed Syzygy Stardust on the previous page saying that black people being removed from voter rolls at a higher rate than white people, is "probably related to the behaviors that also lead to lower credit ratings. Or why disenfranchisement of felons hits them harder. Not everything is a conspiracy, some groups are just better and worse at some objective criteria."
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Jun 12, 2018 16:51
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We'll teach the masses respect for democracy by arbitrarily taking away their right to vote and telling them "better luck next year, fill out all the paperwork again" when they do show up at the polls.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:52
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Mr. Nice! posted:Because there's no notification of voter roll removal and often times voters do not know they've been removed until they go to cast a vote and find out they cannot. Mr. Nice! posted:An ohio GiP poster and veteran was removed from the rolls for this and never got the postcard. That is untrue. He's from Mississippi, and it's just his word that he was never notified. Mr_Ruckus posted:I was purged from the voter roll once without any knowledge. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 16:52
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Given the unreliability of such notifications actually reaching voters, it is absurd to deregister them based on "well you should have got a postcard" unless you have same-day registration so they can correct the error at a polling place when they go to vote.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:57
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There's no taking away of the right to vote. Current registration status is readily available in Ohio and it's a simple process to re-register. It's a sub 10 minute time investment to take care of both.
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Jun 12, 2018 17:03
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SickZip posted:There's no taking away of the right to vote. Current registration status is readily available in Ohio and it's a simple process to re-register. It's a sub 10 minute time investment to take care of both.* *assuming you know you were de-registered, and as Breyer covered in his dissent, it is overwhelmingly likely that people will not since they're striking many times the number of voters a year as there are people who actually move outside their country.
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Jun 12, 2018 17:05
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moths posted:...And if there's no election you care about for an arbitrary period of time, you lose the right to vote in one you do care about? Groovelord Neato posted:*the second amendment wasn't written to enshrine an individual right to firearms and over two centuries of jurisprudence agreed* Admiral Ray posted:Don't own a firearm for a year or two? Lol, sorry, there's a long long long process to even be eligible to buy a gun. 
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Jun 12, 2018 17:12
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Dead Reckoning posted:So this theoretical voter cares enough about an upcoming election that they're going to vote for the first time in over six years, but not enough to check that they're registered to vote? It's not theoretical it actually happened, I provided you a link to a Navy vet this happened to. And yes, most people don't just assume that they got deregistered at some point and check months before the election just in case, they go to the polling place like they did the last time they voted.
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Jun 12, 2018 17:22
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