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Fat Turkey posted:I've only played the plastic version with all the add-ons, and while there is an element of "Oooooo"...it never seems worth it to me. I enjoyed my time with the game without wanting to own it, but it seems to be expensive by choice. It’s raised. I’ve seen it raised over and over again in board game groups but usually the canned response is letting the market decide, it’s just Ameritrash vs euro (and you euro havers can have all your mountains of wood, let us be). So it’s responded to like party lines and quieted ASAP so as to not disturb the conspicuous consumption trend that’s lauded and encouraged in such groups.
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Jun 12, 2018 13:50
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Oh I didn’t even come at it from an environmental angle, I just figure those components, between material and design costs, are more expensive than a piece of 2D art printed on a cardboard chit or standee.
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Jun 12, 2018 13:55
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I knew what you meant, the idea that this game could be cheaper and therefore generally more affordable for purpose without the extra plastics and I agree. The environmental tangent was my own, something that I mentally associate with Rising Sun. Interesting response from chill, I don't see these gaming groups discuss it so has passed me by, I guess I mean on things like Dice Tower, SUSD and the like. Of course I'm not seeing it if not looking in the right place! 
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Jun 12, 2018 14:29
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Does anyone have any thoughts on the Orleans: Invasion expansion? I think I like Orleans more than the thread consensus and I'm a sucker for cooperative games, so it's probably the next thing I'll pick up.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:00
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I’ve heard it pulls of the comp -> coop conversion really well, against all odds.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:09
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Fat Turkey posted:I knew what you meant, the idea that this game could be cheaper and therefore generally more affordable for purpose without the extra plastics and I agree. The environmental tangent was my own, something that I mentally associate with Rising Sun. SUSD's also brought it up, but never to the point of it being an actual discussion, I don't think. I remember one video where they basically were just like "hey sometimes we think about how much cardboard and wood and plastic are in these boxes and it's kind of worrying. Makes you think, huh?" And yeah, given that at least one of the Dice Tower guys has an actual limited-edition mini in Blood Rage, there's no way they're going to start decrying the solid blocks of plastic that are CMON games. To the question of why these games aren't done without minis and made cheaper overall... well, somebody at CMON has definitely sat down and made the calculation to determine that between what they make off of kickstarter and the profit margin at that higher price point, it's definitely more lucrative to sell high-priced games chock full of minis than it would be to sell the same game with less elaborate components. Also it's CMON, they started as a mini company and are ostensibly still one at heart.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:43
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MockingQuantum posted:SUSD's also brought it up, but never to the point of it being an actual discussion, I don't think. I remember one video where they basically were just like "hey sometimes we think about how much cardboard and wood and plastic are in these boxes and it's kind of worrying. Makes you think, huh?" I remember that the gloomhaven guy said hero miniatures were cheaper than hero standees. I think plastic dudes are almost pure profit once you're moving enough units.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:50
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MockingQuantum posted:SUSD's also brought it up, but never to the point of it being an actual discussion, I don't think. I remember one video where they basically were just like "hey sometimes we think about how much cardboard and wood and plastic are in these boxes and it's kind of worrying. Makes you think, huh?" The answer is that the re-launched KS had a minis pledge level from the start and not minis added as optional purchases at the end in order to prop up a KS that wasn't going to meet its target. The case study above clearly shows that miniatures sell games on KS, and that unless the game can build up on a history of strong mechanisms, if the game is mediocre/has poor rules, most of the sales will be on the back of miniature sales rather than people buying the game because of its ruleset.
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Jun 12, 2018 15:58
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Bottom Liner posted:I’ve heard it pulls of the comp -> coop conversion really well, against all odds. It does a reasonable job, but I don't think it has much replayability. If I hadn't snarfed the handful of place tiles for my base game I'd sell it no regrets. Trade & Intrigue, on the other hand, is a fantastic change up to the game.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:00
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I backed lords of hellas recently, and that absolutely falls into the "craploads of superfluous minis" trough. However, I feel like they do actually add something to the game. One of the victory conditions is building one of the monolithic statues to the gods, which could absolutely just be tokens stacked on top of each other. It has similar fortifications to INIS where the meeples fit snuggly inside, but also has temples that work in much the same way, but are physical minis instead of tokens. There are hulking big monsters that could just be Arkham horror tokens, and they have separate cards that handle the tracking of wounds, upgrades, rewards for defeat etc. But the minis make it feel "fun" to attain those goals. You wanna go and slay the giant monster because it's not just some numbers, it's clearly actually a big ol' Hydra! You get that huge monster as a trophy, and it actually IS a trophy! Two more and you win! When you build a monument, you actually are erecting a big impressive monument! Putting a priest peg in the snug 'prayer hole' at its base just feels like it's going to give you a bigger benefit, it's all very visceral and grokkable. It's kind of like a ritual. It also means that at a glance you can tell what the victory status's look like, without really needing them explained even. I don't necessarily think that they really had this tie in between form and function when they designed it, and I was pretty surprised at how it actually works and doesn't feel excessive (although I'm pretty sure the expansions are immediately going to send it over the edge). I'm not really arguing a point here or anything, I just thought it was surprising and quite cool. There's that element that I suspect a lot of us have of enjoying games, but also enjoying "playing", and I think minis tap into that sense of "play" quite immediately, but usually very superficially.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:03
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look how are you even supposed to clip the corners off a mini
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Jun 12, 2018 16:04
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Personally to me, plastic poo poo is nowhere near the majesty of wooden pieces, cf. T&E Nice Wooden Edition vs T&E lovely Plastic Crap Edition.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:07
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yeah im old what of it, gently caress you
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Jun 12, 2018 16:07
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StashAugustine posted:look how are you even supposed to clip the corners off a mini Shaving the mold lines, which you can’t even do with CMON minis because they’re soft plastic wtf
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Jun 12, 2018 16:11
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Tekopo posted:Personally to me, plastic poo poo is nowhere near the majesty of wooden pieces, cf. T&E Nice Wooden Edition vs T&E lovely Plastic Crap Edition.  wooden pieces have a satisfying thunk that plastic doesn’t have. You can’t smash the Ra piece like a gavel in the new version which makes it inferior.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:12
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Tekopo posted:Personally to me, plastic poo poo is nowhere near the majesty of wooden pieces, cf. T&E Nice Wooden Edition vs T&E lovely Plastic Crap Edition. It's funny because SA is the only place I frequent where wooden pieces are preferred to minis. I know it's a lot more common of a preference than that suggests, it's just a funny indication of where tastes lie around here. Personally, I love games that do fun things with wooden pieces, like Ex Libris's wooden meeple golems or goblins or what have you, but personally games where the only non-paper components are colored wooden cubes feel very cheap to me. I know that probably makes me an ameritrash nightmare person but it feels very uninventive to just have four colors of wooden cubes, and in a lot of instances I'd prefer well-illustrated punchboard.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:18
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givecubes.jpg
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Jun 12, 2018 16:23
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All that said, I literally stop noticing wooden cubes once I start playing a game so it's hardly a loss, it's just when setting up a game with a bunch of wooden cubes and very little else sometimes my eyes glaze over and I fall into a light coma.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:30
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uuugh illustrated punchboard for resources kind of annoys me The obvious answer is having different shaped wooden counters for resources, just like Kitchen Rush
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Jun 12, 2018 16:40
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Resin pieces are nice, Azul is a great use of them. Sometimes wooden pieces are simply too generic and abstract for me, resin lets the artist do a little art without making the pieces cheap.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:46
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It might be that it's easier for ~immersed~ gamers (as in you have stopped "noticing" the literal worky bits of a game) to underestimate just how visual people really are and how much of an effect it has on choices and initial impressions. Grab them by their eyes, as they say. It's tempting to just file it under lol consumerism, but I'm not convinced that's the whole story.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:47
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I’d say it’s actually worse for immersion to use plastic over wood sometimes. Wooden cubes are better for illustrating abstract concepts and physically holding/feeling them, imo. You could replace the wooden cubes in sidereal with resin/plastic food/tech/etc pieces but it loses something. It loses the charm of space aliens trading weird poo poo in crates to each other because now there’s a visually locked physical component for each of them. The cubes look like crates and it probably would’ve been better served by plastic cubes (like Gaia Project) instead, but not plastic minis. Cool wooden shapes are awesome though. Imperial has a great look with wooden pieces. I think Rising Sun would have superior aesthetics to match the art if it was wood, but it’s a CMON game. Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 16:50
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Mister Sinewave posted:It might be that it's easier for ~immersed~ gamers (as in you have stopped "noticing" the literal worky bits of a game) to underestimate just how visual people really are and how much of an effect it has on choices and initial impressions. Grab them by their eyes, as they say. I agree with this post. Production quality matters in basically all forms of entertainment, and while there will always be purists in all mediums, the most successful (commercially AND critically, I'd say) efforts in films, music, video games, etc., deliver well on all fronts, including surface-level appearance. There is, obviously, a scale that matters (the difference between a Michael Bay movie and... insert movie that you like here that had good production values).
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Jun 12, 2018 16:54
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Mister Sinewave posted:It might be that it's easier for ~immersed~ gamers (as in you have stopped "noticing" the literal worky bits of a game) to underestimate just how visual people really are and how much of an effect it has on choices and initial impressions. Grab them by their eyes, as they say. In my limited experience playtesting stuff for the local studios, it always seems to catch designers by surprise when you tell them a game or component looks uninteresting. Every once in a blue moon one of them will respond with a "who cares"... me. The person giving you feedback, who is a potential customer, cares. Not saying everything needs to be a thing of beauty, but yes, you absolutely can help the player not only learn the game but start to comprehend more involved strategies if you put some thought into how the components look and relate to each other visually. I think we can all agree, though, the absolute worst option is punchboard where it literally just says what it it is in plain text.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:54
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Cubechat - Imhotep has good cubes. That is my hot, cubic take.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:55
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Three Kingdoms redux has plain punchboard for all its resources but I’ll take that if it means it has a skinny box.
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Jun 12, 2018 16:57
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Chill la Chill posted:Cool wooden shapes are awesome though. Imperial has a great look with wooden pieces. I think Rising Sun would have superior aesthetics to match the art if it was wood, but it’s a CMON game. I enjoy the minis in Rising Sun fine, but this is actually a great idea I'd love to see someone tackle DIY, with some custom cut wooden shapes for faction's different units and all the monsters.
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Jun 12, 2018 17:01
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The real issue is that minis becoming the focus of KS games which leads to more half baked crap that sells vs. a decent underlying game. I’d love to see more things like Container where classic games are lavishly overproduced.
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Jun 12, 2018 17:36
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Gen Xers and Millennials have embraced nostalgic infantilism like no previous generation. How many adults do you know who have shelves lined with Funko Pops or a "man cave" filled with Star Wars, He-Man, and GI Joe poo poo? People our age want to keep playing with toys forever. Most people supporting these Kickstarters only want the minis. Any underlying game is just an excuse.
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Jun 12, 2018 17:41
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CaptainRightful posted:Gen Xers and Millennials have embraced nostalgic infantilism like no previous generation. How many adults do you know who have shelves lined with Funko Pops or a "man cave" filled with Star Wars, He-Man, and GI Joe poo poo? That’s horseshit. The only difference is what’s acceptable to display. 30 years ago it was just man caves filled with model cars or Coca Cola or neon bar signs. I do agree a lot of KS get sales just for minis. “It’s a great value for the minis alone!” always makes me laugh because I’ve never seen anybody do anything but keep them in the box.
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Jun 12, 2018 17:45
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CaptainRightful posted:Gen Xers and Millennials have embraced nostalgic infantilism like no previous generation. How many adults do you know who have shelves lined with Funko Pops or a "man cave" filled with Star Wars, He-Man, and GI Joe poo poo? People our age want to keep playing with toys forever. Most people supporting these Kickstarters only want the minis. Any underlying game is just an excuse. What the gently caress is this. You do realize that millenials are in their goddamn thirties, right?
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Jun 12, 2018 17:57
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I've only taken part in one Kickstarter and it was totally about the minis and I hope I don't regret spending too much money on it. (Nemesis) ((I already regret spending too much))
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Jun 12, 2018 18:07
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silvergoose posted:What the gently caress is this. You do realize that millenials are in their goddamn thirties, right? I don't see how that changes what he's saying or even begins to address the argument, fwiw
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Jun 12, 2018 18:13
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silvergoose posted:What the gently caress is this. You do realize that millenials are in their goddamn thirties, right? Yeah, that's my point. I'm in my 40s and many of my friends collect toys, artwork based on the toys of their youth, etc. They went nuts over Ready Player One. They're the people who can afford expensive games that come with minis. Crackbone posted:That’s horseshit. The only difference is what’s acceptable to display. 30 years ago it was just man caves filled with model cars or Coca Cola or neon bar signs. I'll give you model cars, but those other things you mention are irrelevant. Toy collecting by adults is far more mainstream now than ever before. You say "acceptable to display", which is also what I'm saying. A shelf of Avalon Hill and 3M bookcase games vs. X-wing and Zombicide. EDIT: I think I see why silvergoose misread my first post, because I was unclear. I wrote "How many adults do you know who..." meaning "You probably know lots of them", not the opposite. CaptainRightful fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 18:19
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What do people think of 18Lilliput thats up on KS right now? It looks interesting but the shipping is brutal, almost as much as the bloody game.
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Jun 12, 2018 18:44
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FulsomFrank posted:What do people think of 18Lilliput thats up on KS right now? It looks interesting but the shipping is brutal, almost as much as the bloody game. I backed it because I’m always looking for simpler games with 18xx concepts, and that has value to me Right now I have (complexity order): TransAmerica Paris Connection Mini-Rails Chicago Express And I’m hoping 18Lilliput will be about CE level. Plus its more of a direct tie to 18xx Also us dirty americans finally taste shipping woes, whatev
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Jun 12, 2018 19:16
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I know we were talking about mech minis and board games but oh my god its so cool guys https://www.plaidhatgames.com/news/880
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Jun 12, 2018 19:31
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SVWAG keeps talking about that and Seal Team Flix and joking that they are the only games that will ever be played in the future.
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Jun 12, 2018 19:37
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Has plaid hat games ever produced a good board game?
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Jun 12, 2018 19:37
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golden bubble posted:Has plaid hat games ever produced a good board game? Isn't Specter Ops supposed to be good? I've never played it.
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Jun 12, 2018 19:39
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