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I watched up to Syd shooting David, then I made the dumb mistake of reading reviews and spoiling the rest of the episode for me during the commercial break. I don't think I'm going to finish it. The whole turn from tortured hero to villain for David feels super-unearned. Particularly a villain who's capable of kinda-sorta sexually assaulting the woman he loves. e: what ekeog said, basically. What a disappointing finale to an otherwise interesting (if at times taxing) season. Majorian fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Jun 13, 2018 |
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Jun 13, 2018 05:14
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Yeah, if Hawley is trying to make everyone root against David and for Syd... I uh, don't think that'll work. Especially David with Lenny, who is probably the most popular character on the show. The non-consensual sex thing was gross and wrong, but seems like an easy way for someone to go "they're a villain!" And if he's trying to set up Syd as the protagonist, I think they messed that up when they had her spend an hour getting manipulated by the Shadow King and falling for his tricks. Because now it seems like everyone thinks David is a bad guy because the Shadow King manipulated them to think that. Especially now that they seem to have forgiven the Shadow King for, you know, killing a whole bunch of their guys and David's sister. "Well we know you're a murderer and have possessed our friends and allowed them to be tortured and killed scores of people... but you say that the guy who stopped you is going to do bad stuff in the future? Well poo poo, welcome to the team!"
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Jun 13, 2018 05:27
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David's always been a bit selfish, and we just saw that expressed in a way that's totally believable and totally horrifying. Trying to codify this into heroes and villains is dumb to begin with, but it's very much in character for David to try to "fix things" when they break and to think he's owed something for his suffering. Ironically (and tragically) Syd herself kind of reinforced that thought. Rather than "villain" the way I would put it this that this episode should have shaken you out of David's perspective, at least for a moment -- made you think "oh gently caress, his very existence is terrifying." And of course Shadow King is exploiting and amplifying this. Not necessarily in the sense of some Rube Goldbergian psychic master plan, maybe just in the sense that as an utterly selfish creature who's lived in David's head for most of his life he knows how to make him vulnerable and how to force his hand.
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Jun 13, 2018 05:33
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i looked other places and there's a whole lot of "david was just removing the shadow king's brainwashing that literally made her try to kill him" going round. it just seems like if the big twist is going to be an out-of-nowhere sexual assault that's supposed to hit the viewer hard in a "jesus what has he become" kind of way, you need to not give those same viewers a ton of reasons to think it isn't real, is all a hoax, is a mass delusion, etc. or find a way to let them go through those rationalizations while watching and then make sure the text strongly conveys no, this really happened. doing it all at a trial for Pre-Crimes orchestrated by the series' main villain just doesn't accomplish that.
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Jun 13, 2018 05:36
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Codependent Poster posted:Yeah, if Hawley is trying to make everyone root against David and for Syd everyone was rooting for walter white the whole way through so I don't think he expects this at all. David raped syd though so he's the bad man now, just because you're rooting for or against someone doesn't make them bad/good. I loved this episode, from sing off at the start all the way to the escape. gently caress man this was pretty good.
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Jun 13, 2018 05:38
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ekeog posted:i looked other places and there's a whole lot of "david was just removing the shadow king's brainwashing that literally made her try to kill him" going round. This is not a failing of the series. You absolutely should think that, for a second; it's exactly what David's thinking and we're along for the ride with him. Then you should have a moment of introspection and realize how hosed up and self-serving that is.
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Jun 13, 2018 05:38
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:This is not a failing of the series. You absolutely should think that, for a second; it's exactly what David's thinking and we're along for the ride with him. i agree with you that this is what they were going for, but i think it did not accomplish that nearly as well as it could have
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Jun 13, 2018 05:42
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ekeog posted:i agree with you that this is what they were going for, but i think it did not accomplish that nearly as well as it could have I think they accomplished it perfectly and that if they tried to remove the ambiguity and messiness you seem to object to it wouldn't be even half as effective a statement. It's necessary for David to be able to excuse this to himself, to be able to believe there were mitigating circumstances, that it's all a conspiracy against him, that he was just fighting back on the same terms that Farouk set, and so on -- that's the temptation. The thing is, circumstances don't actually mitigate what he did, and while it may or may not in fact be a conspiracy, he can't morally afford to fight on Farouk's terms, because Farouk is a monster. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Jun 13, 2018 |
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Jun 13, 2018 05:43
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:This is not a failing of the series. You absolutely should think that, for a second; it's exactly what David's thinking and we're along for the ride with him. I think everyone realizes how bad that was and his actions afterwards were even worse. But then the other people join up with a remorseless mass murderer and uh, they kind of lose the moral high ground.
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Jun 13, 2018 05:49
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Codependent Poster posted:I think everyone realizes how bad that was and his actions afterwards were even worse. He's the only person on Earth who might be able to stand up to David. They spent almost the entire season establishing that. 
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Jun 13, 2018 05:50
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Oh good, stopping immediately after Syd shot David was the right move. She's an insufferable hypocrite and they cut across expectations to be clever one too many times. I knew they were going to gently caress this up.  e: jesus gently caress that was the right move. those spoilers 
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Jun 13, 2018 05:57
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Also think about who's present at the trial. Fukuyama and Clark were pretty hostile towards him to begin with, because they're basically approaching this from the angle of "protect the world from the insane god-like mutant who might do anything." He's a new and apocalyptic force while SK has been around for ages and, while dangerous and evil, hasn't ended the world yet. Syd has a very good reason to distrust him right now and has the Shadow King whispering in her ear, again. Kerry probably has a better scientific understanding of what David and SK are respectively capable of than anyone, and like Syd he knows (or "knows") that he ends up having to fight David in the future, in his case by designing the orb trap. Cary's not likely to disagree with Kerry much to begin with, and she's also pretty good at evaluating threats and prioritizing (if probably in a somewhat nearsighted way, at that.)
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Jun 13, 2018 05:58
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Chokes McGee posted:Oh good, stopping immediately after Syd shot David was the right move. I think you're trying to project narrative subversions where they don't actually exist.
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Jun 13, 2018 06:00
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:He's the only person on Earth who might be able to stand up to David. They spent almost the entire season establishing that. If the point of this season has been, "The enemy of your enemy isn't necessarily the good guy," then having the team join up with SK to stop David doesn't suggest that the writers learned their own lesson.
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Jun 13, 2018 06:09
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My Vue recorded an hour and a half even though this was only an hour episode so the ending felt extra abrupt.
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Jun 13, 2018 06:19
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Henchman of Santa posted:My Vue recorded an hour and a half even though this was only an hour episode so the ending felt extra abrupt. Better than my directvnow which cut off the last 5 minutes or so. Managed to catch the end on another service.
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Jun 13, 2018 06:41
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:He's the only person on Earth who might be able to stand up to David. They spent almost the entire season establishing that. I don't get why the shadow king is so scary if he got brutally owned by Professor X in like 2 seconds and fell into his dinner. Maybe they should go get Professor X instead.
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Jun 13, 2018 06:59
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I think they accomplished it perfectly and that if they tried to remove the ambiguity and messiness you seem to object to it wouldn't be even half as effective a statement. What are Farouk's terms that David can't morally afford to fight on? You're praising the ambiguity but the argument against isn't so much that there's any ambiguity but that the show went way too far into it. The show itself obliterates any easy or final read into what David did during the mindwipe because earlier in the season he literally expunges people's thoughts and it's shown as unambiguously good because those thoughts (presumably from the Shadow King although this was not clear) are described as diseases infecting the minds of those around them. Also, where was Chapter 11?
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Jun 13, 2018 07:15
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Zachack posted:The show itself obliterates any easy or final read into what David did during the mindwipe because earlier in the season he literally expunges people's thoughts and it's shown as unambiguously good because those thoughts (presumably from the Shadow King although this was not clear) are described as diseases infecting the minds of those around them. I think you're meant to contrast the two expunging situations. The Fukuyama delusion was demonstrably incorrect, he wasn't some weird evil bug thing when they lifted his mask. Whereas the show wants you to believe that David actually is not a good person and that Farouk was showing Syd more truth than lie (this is David's yellow shirt personality in the finale) so him expunging the truth is a huge negative. This season, we all kind of wondered what the delusion reveal was going to be, and I can understand why some people may not have been convinced by the shows presentation of the "turn". I'm actually ok with it though. We mostly see David in his puppy love phase with Syd so his "good" side is showing up the most. This is how most new romantic relationships are, where you may not see someone's true self. This is even more true with David because he is seriously loving mentally ill and it didn't even take that long (he was in the sphere for a year) with his relationship with Syd for him to do something really hosed up to her. We never really see him treat other people that well either. He seems to take his friends for granted and when he saves them, its always kind of because he's furthering his own goals. He really did care about his sister but she's gone and knowing that probably worsened his already fragile psyche.
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Jun 13, 2018 07:49
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So is this supposed to make us argue whether trying to kill somebody is worse than trying to rape them or vice versa? It's a total over simplification of what happened but Syd tries to murder David in her potentially misguided attempt to be a hero. Then David, as a crazy person, mindwipes Syd because he still wants to believe he's a good person and has been using her as the justification for that belief. However by not letting her sort through her complete thoughts and attempting to continue their physical relationship as normal later that evening, David commits sexual assault. Yet she just tried to kill him hours before, which is super hosed up in its own way, so technically his panicked response makes sense considering his psychological issues. I feel like not having her shoot but him still reacting similarly would be a better way of showing him as the monster they end up treating him like at the end. Whatever the answer is supposed to be, after two seasons of trying to defeat him, keeping the Shadow King completely unrestrained was foolish even if they thought David was going to become a world destroyer. Hopefully next season there's some answer to why Farouk is gallivanting around freely not killing or manipulating everyone possible. My only guess is that he's tickled at the idea of getting to play the hero to the son of his worst enemy's villain, so he agreed to play along with whatever stipulations were given to him for the time being. I binged this season and actually really enjoyed it, I hope they keep up all the weird vibes this show has. I can see how watching it weekly could get frustrating, but I thought the build up to the Shadow King vs David fight throughout the season was pretty enjoyable overall when I just was able to watch the next episode immediately after one would finish. Mr_Moose fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 13, 2018 08:25
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The show seems to have gotten itself into trouble trying to frame ethical dilemmas using fake ill-defined superpowers. He spent like 2 hours doing some fake mental drill thing to a guy and he's Eichmann? I just don't find it that interesting or convincing. Also last season there's a scene where Syd saw all those dead soldiers in the ground at division 3 and nodded her head approvingly. Now she's supposed to be concerned about it. It's like they're writing a different show now.
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Jun 13, 2018 08:29
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Yeah it really felt like they were going for a "Uh oh David's turned now guys and he doesn't realize it, he's the bad guy now!" ending and they muddied it up with a lot of weird shenanigans in that last scene. Good setup for S3 though. Should be fun!
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Jun 13, 2018 09:20
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With the season done, I have to say it feels like we only got maybe 75% of the actual story and a lot of it was set-up for season 3 (so good thing they got renewed I guess!) - there is still a lot of stuff that feels incomplete or unrefined in a way that the far tighter season 1 didn't. Still loved the show, but I do feel like something was missing this time around (probably just not enough Aubrey Plaza, so woop for season 3!). I did absolutely love the line "If only you could see how we see you instead of how you see yourself", it really hammered home the notion of how David is filtering everything through his determination that he is the good guy in a love story, and his understandable horror/rejection/denial of the idea he needs therapy/treatment after being told last season that he wasn't insane and there really was a horrible demon in his head causing all these problems. That said, the fact they let the Shadow King out and about at the trial was terrible and made no sense. night slime posted:I don't get why the shadow king is so scary if he got brutally owned by Professor X in like 2 seconds and fell into his dinner. Maybe they should go get Professor X instead. My understanding has always been that while Professor X is an extremely powerful psychic, what truly makes him formidable is how skilled he is. It's why the Shadow King is able to keep up with David in spite of David being an order of magnitude more powerful than pretty much everybody. The skill and cleverness in which he (and Professor X) use their powers is what truly makes them dangerous. Which is why David setting up Lenny to shut down he and Farouk's powers was so interesting, it was a demonstration of David finally figuring out how to think beyond just smashing through everything with pure (psychic) muscle. Strobe posted:This psychic fight to a synth-distorted cover of Behind Blue Eyes with the rotoscope-like animation is fully sick and all kinds of my poo poo. 
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Jun 13, 2018 12:06
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They could not have found a better song for the end credits.
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Jun 13, 2018 12:12
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Jerusalem posted:With the season done, I have to say it feels like we only got maybe 75% of the actual story and a lot of it was set-up for season 3 (so good thing they got renewed I guess!) - there is still a lot of stuff that feels incomplete or unrefined in a way that the far tighter season 1 didn't. Still loved the show, but I do feel like something was missing this time around (probably just not enough Aubrey Plaza, so woop for season 3!). i hope next season gives us more Glasses McLabcoat and the Girl Who Kicks though, it seems like everyone realized what a cool pair they are and started to go out of their way to develop them this year
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Jun 13, 2018 12:43
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I'm just watching it now, the intro is loving magnificent. I'm awarding that scene for an Emmy.
Rocksicles fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Jun 13, 2018 |
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Jun 13, 2018 12:49
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ekeog posted:Glasses McLabcoat Especially loved this, and the first shot of the cage reflecting off of Farouk's glasses. Amazing episode.
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Jun 13, 2018 12:57
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The Legion subreddit is tying itself in knots trying to conclude it wasn’t actually rape.
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Jun 13, 2018 13:54
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Danger posted:The (fill in the blank) subreddit is tying itself in knots trying to conclude it wasn’t actually rape.
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Jun 13, 2018 13:55
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The almost complete lack of use of Jean Smart this year was quite baffling too, and I'm still irritated that the "resolution" of her story was largely her being used as a prop by Farouk. While it was sweet seeing her and Oliver "retired" together, it didn't even slightly address any of her concerns or complaints about the way she was almost always an afterthought in his life. Not to mention we (admittedly deliberately so) got no idea of exactly how or why they recovered/escaped beyond Farouk apparently dumping them the moment he had his own body back.
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Jun 13, 2018 14:12
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Need that Behind Blue Eyes cover right now.
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Jun 13, 2018 14:13
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Did Farouk use the transform gun on Melanie to restore his body? I didn't notice.
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Jun 13, 2018 14:19
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Wasn't his body preserved but just "empty" until he could get back into close physical proximity to it? Basically a slightly weirder (if that is possible) version of Oliver's condition in season 1?
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Jun 13, 2018 14:24
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Jerusalem posted:My understanding has always been that while Professor X is an extremely powerful psychic, what truly makes him formidable is how skilled he is. It's why the Shadow King is able to keep up with David in spite of David being an order of magnitude more powerful than pretty much everybody. I haven't watched the first season in forever, so I assume that's when they mention how he's super crazy powerful? Cuz he got his rear end kicked
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Jun 13, 2018 14:45
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Danger posted:The Legion subreddit is tying itself in knots trying to conclude it wasn’t actually rape. I was just about to make this same post.
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Jun 13, 2018 15:50
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night slime posted:I don't get why the shadow king is so scary if he got brutally owned by Professor X in like 2 seconds and fell into his dinner. Maybe they should go get Professor X instead. i think its safe to say that professor x is dead or whatever he was doing in logan i think he was senile and on his way to being dead
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Jun 13, 2018 16:05
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Professor X is
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Jun 13, 2018 16:21
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While this season had some great episodes, and some outstanding individual scenes, I don't feel like it really came together. There is just way too much stuff that felt like random crap that didn't fit into any greater whole. The first season felt far more coherent. Some random observations: * I guess the insanity bird really was just a completely unreleated threat, or what? David even flat out tells it that it's just an annoyance and that they are kinda busy with the main plot. Where did it come from? Why did it want them to kill the Admiral? No one cares. It's never mentioned again and no one follows up on this in any way. * Poor Ptononomy. He dies horribly and no one cares. Everyone just acts like he never existed, except for that one scene with David. I guess he is till stuck inside that computer, wondering what his friends are up to. * There is a minotaur in a wheelchair in the background of several scenes. What does it mean? Well, it's a minotaur, it's no longer in a wheelchair, and now it's dead. * A mysterious cow shows up as well. Who cares? * Division 3 appears completely deserted most of the time. Is this deliberate by the producers, to make some kind of point about reality? Apparently, not. They just couldn't afford extras, I guess. * Oliver vows to kill Farouk. He has a secret plan for doing so. The hint: One and one don’t always equal two. Now, let us never mention this again, and he will be perfectly fine with Farouk being released later. * Kerry and Cary has switched roles! How will they deal with this new situation? Who cares? Let's never mention it again after one episode. * Farouk doesn't seem any more powerful in his body than without it, so what was the big deal about him getting it back? He appears pretty evenly matched with David whenever they fight. * We still don't know what David was doing in that orb for a year, do we? If future Syd has the power to imprison David for years, why not just keep him there, so he is no threat? On the plus side, David finally seems to be developing multiple personalities, after nearly two seasons of just being a slightly unstable mutant. I was starting to worry that they would simply ignore this aspect of his character. I still enjoyed watching the show, and I'll definitely tune in for season 3, but I feel like this was a huge step down from season 1. I hope the writing improves in the next season. SimonChris fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Jun 13, 2018 |
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Jun 13, 2018 16:33
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The insanity bird is an interesting prop as a physical entity, because David recognizes it immediately in someone else for what it is and literally squashes it (which has some interesting implications just by itself) but is completely unable to recognize it in his own head even when he's shown directly to it by his own insecurities. We all want to believe we're the heroes of our own stories. 
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Jun 13, 2018 16:41
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David was with farouk for the missing year, helping him look for his body, I thought that was pretty obviously explained in one of the earlier episodes. He lies about it because he goes to division 3 to look for the monk i agree though there was a bunch of poo poo that either was just completely random craziness or never resolved or brought up again. Maybe now that david is the bad guy we will get more focus on everyone else? Like we didn't even see real melanie or oliver in the last episode what the gently caress? This season felt kind of pathworky in that a lot of episodes didn't even need to be there, but then some of them were really great. Like alternate reality david episode was really fun. Doorknob Slobber fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Jun 13, 2018 |
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Jun 13, 2018 16:42
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