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Yuns, is your firm considering moving to a PC from an LLP? I know my firm is looking into it but haven’t heard anything further. Will be interesting to see if a bunch of firms convert once partners get their year-end draw.
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Jun 14, 2018 07:48
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I haven't heard anything either at my old firm or my current one about a move to PC. That doesn't mean it's not happening though. I just don't know. I head up a practice but I'm not on management committee or anything.
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Jun 14, 2018 11:20
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My friend's been a biglaw associate for 9.5 years, he's pretty hosed in terms of getting partner isn't he
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Jun 14, 2018 13:40
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mastershakeman posted:My friend's been a biglaw associate for 9.5 years, he's pretty hosed in terms of getting partner isn't he My old firm, 9-10 yrs has become the norm for making junior partner.
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Jun 14, 2018 13:45
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Side note: Counsel/Of Counsel can also be used to mean former partners who have aged past the mandatory buyout but who continue to work because they’re masochists
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Jun 14, 2018 13:55
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Look Sir Droids posted:My old firm, 9-10 yrs has become the norm for making junior partner. The new normal sure sucks doesn't it
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Jun 14, 2018 13:58
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disjoe posted:Side note: Counsel/Of Counsel can also be used to mean former partners who have aged past the mandatory buyout but who continue to work because they’re masochists Or they realize they hate their spouse once they get more than 10 waking hours per week with them.
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Jun 14, 2018 13:59
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disjoe posted:Side note: Counsel/Of Counsel can also be used to mean former partners who have aged past the mandatory buyout but who continue to work because they’re masochists Or they bring in clients but are basically retired from doing actual law talking guy work.
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Jun 14, 2018 14:03
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mastershakeman posted:The new normal sure sucks doesn't it Lol Will no one think of the poor biglaw senior associate?
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Jun 14, 2018 14:10
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Here’s a story about clients and how they are the currency of partnership. A young, charismatic man, GJ, gets out of the navy and goes to law school. His naval experience, talent, and gift of gab help him build quite a reputation in the admiralty field, and he builds a well-respected firm that grows to 20-30 lawyers. Over the years, as he gets older, GJ starts to pull back, and other partners begin moving in to stake their claims. These guys have no clients of their own but were made partner in the 80s, when that didn’t matter. Now, they are fighting amongst themselves as to which clients are “theirs.” Generally the clients don’t care. Their work is being done and the old man is still the face of the company, still visits them and takes them out for a few drinks to talk sailing stories. One of these clients, Refinery, is claimed by a partner named Paul, who for the next 20 years jealously guards their business. Of course Paul eventually doesn’t do any work for the client, and is content to let associates do everything and just collect the money because of course everyone knows the client is his. This is how it goes for all of them, really—all these partners in their 60s who never developed their own business but who have no problem telling associates the partnership is closed unless they bring in new business. Eventually Paul retires too. One associate, Greg, who is very talented and experienced and has a great relationship with Refinery, gets passed over. Another partner has decided that he gets to inherit Refinery, you see. Our firm requires partners to manage clients and well, you’re not a partner. Greg quits and lo and behold takes the general counsel position at Refinery (for an 80% bump in salary). Now imagine the glee with which Greg calls outside counsel, his former firm, and tells them Refinery’s business is no longer theirs. Phil Moscowitz fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 14:20
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Fairy tales make such good bedtime stories
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Jun 14, 2018 15:12
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Firms dont have associates or partners sign agreements that forbid them working with former clients of that firm for x number of years of a noncompete or whatever?
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Jun 14, 2018 15:15
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Pretty sure noncompetes are illegal for lawyers. I know they are in Louisiana. The rationale is that clients should have absolute choice over who their lawyer is. e. There are ethical obligations as far as how clients are supposed to be handled and limitations on solicitation, and partners certainly have fiduciary relationships with one another. Phil Moscowitz fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 15:21
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Noncompetes are either illegal or an ethical violation. Or both. You can’t restrict the practice of law because it might mean someone is deprived of their choice of lawyer. Conflicts of interest rules kind of serve the purpose of noncompetes without being as draconian.
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Jun 14, 2018 15:40
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Anyone know of any good job posting sites? indeed & monster have the exact same posts, most of which are reports of state job postings, and my schools career page has a lot of posts as well, but most are for associates with a few years under their belts.
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Jun 14, 2018 15:43
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Phil Moscowitz posted:Pretty sure noncompetes are illegal for lawyers. I know they are in Louisiana. The rationale is that clients should have absolute choice over who their lawyer is. you do, however, sometimes see people manage to find ways around this since it's frequently a demand from defendants that the lawyers representing the plaintiff agree never to represent similar plaintiffs in a settlement iirc it came out that one of the Fox News sexmonsters basically made this happen by making it a condition of the settlement that the plaintiff's firm advise him on how to protect himself from sexual harassment, making it an irreconcilable conflict for them to represent someone suing him for sexual harassment
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Jun 14, 2018 15:55
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Mr. Nice! posted:Anyone know of any good job posting sites? indeed & monster have the exact same posts, most of which are reports of state job postings, and my schools career page has a lot of posts as well, but most are for associates with a few years under their belts. The Texas State Bar does job postings. Maybe yours does too? Also, one of the things I did during the grind was to start writing letters to every 1-3 attorney firm in town saying, "Hey, I'm a new lawyer looking for work - if you're busy or need temporary or contract labor for a project or something, I'll bill out at $XXX an hour. Hit me up!" It gave me something to do, got a few part time things, and eventually turned into my first real job.
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Jun 14, 2018 16:01
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Check out docketly too. Can I hire you at 10 an hour to write my briefs? Hey zwabu could I DM you about an anesthesia question? My kid is having general anesthesia for dental work and a kid in Austin died under that a few years ago, and well I'm nervous. Hot Dog Day #91 fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 16:12
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Here is a small firm, Plimsoll, McClean & Maersk, that has been around for over a hundred years, in a niche practice area. Names on the door have been dead for fifty years. Five partners and two experienced associates. Three of the partners, Randolph, Mortimer, and Smails, have the lion's share of the business, maybe 90% of it split evenly between each of them. The remaining two partners have the rest, but most everyone works on Randolph's or Mortimer's cases. Randolph and Mortimer are having lunch one day and decide they have had enough of footing the bill for the firm's overhead. The associates are approaching a decade with the firm and are demanding more and more every year. One of them even asked about partnership. With no clients of his own, can you imagine? Smails is getting old, and he isn't very leveraged anymore---he supports himself and his secretary, and pitches in to keep the lights on. But his clients are merging or going out of business and leaving the firm one by one. Mortimer says a large local firm has been sniffing around, feeling him out about leaving. Randolph thinks that sounds capital. One morning they both announce they are leaving the firm. It's been a great run, but its time to move on. We will be bringing our secretaries, but nobody else unfortunately. Don't worry, this firm has been around a hundred years, we're sure it will be around another hundred. Okay, we're going to lunch. 60% of the firm's business walks out of the door with them. Smails is struggling to pay himself, and certainly can't pay the salary and benefits for two associates, three secretaries, an office manager and a paralegal. The associates have nothing to work on, because they have no clients and all their time was spent servicing Mortimer and Randoph. The other two partners are bringing in about $150k in business a year each, so they immediately look for somewhere to land. Six months later, Plimsoll, McClean & Maersk has dissolved. Mortimer and Randolph are doing great---when they left, a couple of the younger partners' clients freaked out and came with them. How fortunate! The new firm has lots of young, hard working associates that put to shame the two kids from PM&M. Smails is of counsel with a small local firm. His client base has evaporated but he's made enough money that he doesn't care. He goes into the office for a few hours every day to get away from his wife. If he retires, he's certain he will drop dead, so he dresses in his three piece suit and heads to work every morning to read the newspaper and work on the four or five cases he still has. The associates landed at firms that pay a little less than PM&M, for a little more work. They are told in vague terms that they're on the partnership track, but they know better. They're 10th year associates, and the firms haven't made a new partner in a decade (but plenty of associates have come and gone). One of the junior partners gets an in-house job in Texas. His wife divorces him and keeps the kids and house, but he buys a Porsche and starts working out a lot. Life is "good." The other junior partner kills himself.
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Jun 14, 2018 16:19
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Uplifting stuff.
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Jun 14, 2018 16:43
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How's the Porsche handle, Phil?
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Jun 14, 2018 17:10
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Mr. Nice! posted:Anyone know of any good job posting sites? indeed & monster have the exact same posts, most of which are reports of state job postings, and my schools career page has a lot of posts as well, but most are for associates with a few years under their belts. goinhouse has different stuff sometimes but it's kind of niche and probably not very entry level friendly
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Jun 14, 2018 17:30
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Phil Moscowitz posted:Here is a small firm, Plimsoll, McClean & Maersk, that has been around for over a hundred years, in a niche practice area. Names on the door have been dead for fifty years. Five partners and two experienced associates. Three of the partners, Randolph, Mortimer, and Smails, have the lion's share of the business, maybe 90% of it split evenly between each of them. The remaining two partners have the rest, but most everyone works on Randolph's or Mortimer's cases. Keep going 
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Jun 14, 2018 17:32
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Phil Moscowitz posted:all their time was spent servicing Mortimer and Randoph. Hot.
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Jun 14, 2018 17:51
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Mr. Nice! posted:Anyone know of any good job posting sites? indeed & monster have the exact same posts, most of which are reports of state job postings, and my schools career page has a lot of posts as well, but most are for associates with a few years under their belts.
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Jun 14, 2018 18:00
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Where does Eddie Murphy fit in
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Jun 14, 2018 18:03
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:Check out docketly too. Sure.
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Jun 14, 2018 18:09
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EwokEntourage posted:Where does Eddie Murphy fit in If Plimsoll had still been around to draw the line the firm wouldn't have gone under.
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Jun 14, 2018 18:45
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joat mon posted:If Plimsoll had still been around to draw the line the firm wouldn't have gone under.  Anyone else?
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Jun 14, 2018 18:54
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Goddamn I love Phil's stories. Just fyi Phil was the suicide from that tale did unclear how he's posting.
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Jun 14, 2018 18:55
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Phil Moscowitz posted:
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Jun 14, 2018 18:55
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Zwabu posted:Firms dont have associates or partners sign agreements that forbid them working with former clients of that firm for x number of years of a noncompete or whatever? They'd much rather have you work for the former clients so that you continue to steer business their way, which is why they tend to try to maintain good relationships with the associates they're pushing out.
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Jun 14, 2018 21:19
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I've had to sign noncompetes for insanely assholish doc review companies that presumably never try to enforce them
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Jun 14, 2018 21:43
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That awkward moment when you’re at annual prosecutor training and remember the spouse of the last “expert” you got disqualified is also a prosecutor. And the even more awkward moment when another person high fives you for it. In front of her. Union picnic tomorrow will be grand. Families are invited.
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Jun 14, 2018 23:36
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Interesting. Noncompetes are very much a thing in medicine employment contracts. People tell you when you start out that "they're not really enforceable" but I don't know the track record of success in pursuing these, so I always assume they are at least to some degree enforceable or why would they bother putting them into contracts. I do know that a number of my current partners who used to be with a local competitor brought substantial business from that competitor when they joined us. I'm pretty sure most or all of them got sued by that group which was well known for suing people who left, but we still have all that business so I'm not sure what if anything their employment contract said about it or what the outcome of those lawsuits were. I do also know that my own group's contract has pretty onerous noncompete restrictions for anyone leaving. The only issue I know is that it got tested in a minor way by one former member who has poached off a small amount of business but noncompete issues have not been pursued. In the anesthesia business surgeons are the most analagous thing to a law firm's clients. Even though we bill insurance companies or bill the patients directly, the source of ongoing business is the surgeons and other doctors who seek anesthesia services for whatever procedures they are doing. In much of America anesthesia groups have an exclusive contract with a hospital, sort of like being in house counsel I guess, with all kind of arrangements ranging from billing insurance and the patient to being salaried employees of the hospital, so the main business relationship is with the hospital or larger company that owns that hospital. The surgeons are still important in that if there becomes a broad perception that the group is performing poorly there will eventually be a move to end the exclusive contract and find/hire different anesthesiologists. Or if a particular surgeon is a very influential "rainmaker" to that hospital, making them unhappy can start to have repercussions even if the rest of the hospital's surgeons are happy. In my area however we compete directly with other anesthesia practices for each and every surgeon we work with. Even within a surgical practice, some of their partners will use our group and some will use our competitors. It can and does happen that a surgeon fires our group for whatever reason, or that they fire a competitor and start using our services. Anesthesia billing is also time based (ten to fifteen minute "units") although there are other fudge factors involved.
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Jun 14, 2018 23:59
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This is mindblowing to me. I assumed that hospitals just had anesthesiologists on staff directly. I didn't realize it was more of an "in-house" contract gig.
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Jun 15, 2018 00:05
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Pook Good Mook posted:This is mindblowing to me. I assumed that hospitals just had anesthesiologists on staff directly. I didn't realize it was more of an "in-house" contract gig. They're famous for being out of network at in network hospitals
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Jun 15, 2018 00:07
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Pook Good Mook posted:This is mindblowing to me. I assumed that hospitals just had anesthesiologists on staff directly. I didn't realize it was more of an "in-house" contract gig. One of the greatest parts of American health care is when you make sure to go to the hospital that's in your insurance network and then get billed by the out of network anesthesiologist anyway.
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Jun 15, 2018 00:07
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Doctor noncompetes are going to be a bit different than noncompetes for other professions because 1) patients should get to stick with their doctor and 2) scarcity. If you’re rural and there are only three cardiologists in a 50 mile radius, a noncompete probably won’t be enforced on public policy grounds. Some states require doctor noncompetes to have buyout clauses too.
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Jun 15, 2018 00:12
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Pook Good Mook posted:This is mindblowing to me. I assumed that hospitals just had anesthesiologists on staff directly. I didn't realize it was more of an "in-house" contract gig. Well in a lot of instances the anesthesiologists will in fact be salaried employees, and that's becoming increasingly common not just for anesthesia but for all kinds of specialties nationwide, so if you work for a big health care org like Kaiser or a university you will generally be salaried although there may be considerable incentives for seniority and production. But a lot of times being "exclusive" with a hospital just means that you agree to provide all the anesthesia services needed at that facility, but in many or most instances you will still bill and collect from the patients and their insurance yourselves. Even though your billing is your own business, if your billing and collection practices are abusive and wind up generating a lot of patient complaints and negative publicity for the hospital then they may fire your entire group or pressure you to change these, or become employees, etc. Big hospital chains see profit in acquiring and running services like anesthesia, radiology, and pathology themselves, doing their own collections, salarying the docs and skimming the rest. A nice way to pad their bottom line while the current system of insurance based medicine still exists. This kind of fits in with a lot of younger med school grads now being more interested, as a cultural matter, in having more reasonable hours and a livable lifestyle as opposed to the older vision of being a feudal baron of private practice and grinding every last possible dollar out of the system before it dies or they die. It is simplest and easiest to be salaried, if not the most lucrative. At least you get paid and you know how much. Hospital takes care of your office space, hiring your office people, equipment, covers your malpractice insurance, credentialing fees etc. If you are exclusive but are doing your own billing/collections you have to continually evaluate revenue vs. cost. For instance a hospital may be nice and profitable, but now to maintain your exclusive they want you to have a person in the hospital at all times, 24/7 to cover a new trauma service. If that work is either low volume or has volume that generates no revenue (patients all uninsured etc.) then that is a substantial net cost that eats into your bottom line. If you are losing money at a hospital or barely breaking even then it is easier to just become employees and get a salary if you don't have the option to leave that hospital or area, and if your group doesn't have the leverage to extract some kind of stipend or compensation to cover your losses. It goes without saying that things change in hospitals too. Some hospitals that were losers find a nice niche of practice and blow up ("we're a center for excellence in robotic pediatric neurosurgery!") and others that were King Turd of poo poo Mountain make a bunch of bad decisions and slide into Failed Shopping Mall territory.
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Jun 15, 2018 00:35
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