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There's no diametric good guy/bad guy divides in this show. Farouk and David are essentially the same character from different perspectives - both examples of how power inevitably corrupts.
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Jun 14, 2018 17:56
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One reason I don't buy "the Shadow King is behind it all" is the look of genuine surprise that he got when he learned from future Syd that David becomes Legion. This is a dude who is almost always completely in control of the situation and seemed unflappable but that moment was a real shock to him. That doesn't mean he didn't inadvertently set up a self-fulfilling prophecy in this version of the timeline, but I don't think he had anything to do with the original Future Syd situation.
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Jun 14, 2018 17:57
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Terror Sweat posted:He clearly isn’t the bad guy, the entire season was Farouk’s manipulating everyone around him, hes probably the one who sent syd back into the past. People are annoyed at the ending because it’s not obvious just how much control he has over everyone Manipulations or not, David drugged Syd then had sex with her. Hard to claim that's not obviously bad actions.
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Jun 14, 2018 18:01
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JossiRossi posted:Manipulations or not, David drugged Syd then had sex with her. Hard to claim that's not obviously bad actions. Especially when the show very deliberately and explicitly calls it out as such.
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Jun 14, 2018 18:02
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David is unequivocally in the wrong in what he did to Syd, and is also in a situation where his enemy is gleefully taking advantage. There's no contradiction between the two. David has genuine reasons to be angry and hurt, which he is clinging to so he can ignore the things that he did to hurt others -- rejecting information that contradicts his self-image. It's exactly what's described in John Hamm's monologues.
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Jun 14, 2018 18:11
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Escobarbarian posted:Is this ending as bad as it sounds It's pretty great and it's a lot better than "and then a Pokeball got him."
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Jun 14, 2018 18:36
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glad she is dead posted:There's no diametric good guy/bad guy divides in this show. Farouk and David are essentially the same character from different perspectives - both examples of how power inevitably corrupts. I’m pretty sure shadow king is the bad guy. And I’m pretty sure the guy who spent decades being tortured and manipulated but is still trying to be good is the good guy.
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Jun 14, 2018 19:28
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Monglo posted:There's a lot of hot takes the finale ITT, but what's the explanation for them just releasing the totalitarian mind controlling mutant loose? They were bent on apprehending him and stopping him from getting his body, but then suddenly let him walk free and potentially mind-control them all? This is very much a comic books thing.
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Jun 14, 2018 19:37
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Terror Sweat posted:I’m pretty sure shadow king is the bad guy. And I’m pretty sure the guy who spent decades being tortured and manipulated but is still trying to be good is the good guy. What you're calling "the good guy" tortured a man to death, then brainwashed and raped his girlfriend.
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Jun 14, 2018 19:37
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No bad guy. No good guy. Can we move on? There's only a guy who's been doing hosed up poo poo for hundreds of years, and a mentally unstable guy who is capable of doing insanely hosed up poo poo who has recently embraced the fact that he has done some hosed up poo poo. Both are very dangerous. Both are very likable in their own way. The end.
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Jun 14, 2018 19:46
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David has never once been likeable to me. He is just this walking power package that everyone has to deal with So I don't mind if he becomes a grey zone "maybe good maybe bad sometimes" character
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Jun 14, 2018 19:49
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Feenix posted:No bad guy. No good guy. Can we move on?
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Jun 14, 2018 19:50
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glad she is dead posted:What you're calling "the good guy" tortured a man to death, then brainwashed and raped his girlfriend. He didn't kill Oliver.
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Jun 14, 2018 20:32
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Let's say we put aside Syd thinking David was going to end the world and believing she had to kill him and all the SK stuff, just for a minute: She made it very clear earlier this season that him kissing future!Syd would be a complete dealbreaker. The fact that he knowingly removed that particular truth from her mind had nothing to do with 'curing' a Shadow King brainwashing. He tried to reset her to "happy girlfriend mode" and it didn't fully work since she didn't want to see him, felt disorientated and got drunk. There are multiple things going on in the finale that only contradict themselves if you have a binary view of the world. Yes: Farouk is up to something and it's messed up that he's free and at David's trial. He is a bad guy who will always have an angle. and Yes: David crossed two lines that left all his friends unable to trust him. The fact that he retreated into his delusions when confronted with the pain he caused the woman he supposedly loves makes him a *bad guy* until he decides to pull himself together. When you have delusions, there's a point where you have to face the harm caused and choose whether you try to not hurt people again or choose to blame everything and everyone but yourself. David went from self absorbtion to malignant narcissism in the finale. He can come back from this (ask anyone with mentally ill or addict loved ones!) and it would make a VERY interesting story arc. I'm getting a tired of tv shows making the protag get more and more morally compromised as they go on. It's pretty much cliché at this point so I'm holding out hope that a season 3 might handle this with the kind of subtlety we saw in the alternative universes episode.
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Jun 14, 2018 21:01
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so what are all the great musical scenes in the show? I remember - the bollywood scene in episode 1 - bolero scene in the penultimate episode of season 1 - the dance off in season 2 episode 1 - behind blue eyes Farouk/David showdown in season 2 finale. Any that I'm missing?
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Jun 14, 2018 21:54
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double nine posted:going to try and write down my thoughts, for my own benefits. Was Farouk really there? I mean the mouse shows that his psychic powers are leaking out of his cell.
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Jun 14, 2018 21:57
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Shageletic posted:Was Farouk really there? I mean the mouse shows that his psychic powers are leaking out of his cell. 
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Jun 14, 2018 22:07
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Honestly wonder if people are watching the same show as me. David's "turn" doesn't come out of nowhere. They've been building it up since the beginning of the show. The whole point is that we, the audience, are finally being clued in the same time that Syd is. David has always been selfish. His relationship with Syd has always been shallow and unbalanced. Farouk just helped us piece it all together. The best comparison I can make is to The Prestige, in which a movie about magic tricks is constantly using those same methods via direction/editing to misdirect the audience. This season's main theme is Delusion, and we as an audience have been as deluded as David into thinking he's a "good person". The things he says and does to Syd in this episode are absolutely within character of everything the show has established thus far. What makes it so much more horrifying is that these are very REAL atrocities that people commit all the time. And real people always convince themselves that their actions aren't wrong, using any justification they can. Legion uses superheroes and avant-garde cinema to explore the imperfections of consciousness. It's one of the most human shows on television right now, despite the spectacle. The story itself is simple. The lessons are unambiguously spelled out. The show was just successful is getting the audience to sympathize with David's plight. It NEEDED to pull the rug out from under us to show that, no, David is not okay and he needs to change. And don't get me started on the geometry. I loved the way the hexagonal imagery kept increasing until David was trapped in an inverse hexagram, giving us the beautiful image of those lights shining off of Farouk's sunglasses.
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Jun 14, 2018 22:23
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I do wonder about the connection between “my love is vengeance” and the Shadow Kong’s line later about trying to get David to love him.
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Jun 14, 2018 22:26
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Shageletic posted:Was Farouk really there? I mean the mouse shows that his psychic powers are leaking out of his cell. I thought he was there and he had his stupid hat gone which was baffling. David reacts to him and they don't get weird about it. I might have to rewatch that. As an intervention I thought like what a terrible way to go about it. Like they have to contain him, ok fair enough but then they come at him in a super judgemental way almost designed to piss him off. Sydney its ok from but the rest of them, like guys have some perspective if you think there's even a possibility he could break free maybe don't antagonise him into losing his poo poo because he has a short fuse and you know that. Overall I wasn't that happy with this series. I wouldn't call it bad by a longshot. I needed to have the Hamm lectures pay off in some much bigger way and then there was all the weird visual stuff that we don't really get enough explanation of even hinted at. Why is there is a sinkhole in the desert. Is that metaphorical or did David make it in his sleep? Or the thing with all the green arrows pointing at him. I guess with the Hamm thing it might be David deluded himself into thinking he's a good guy so he felt like he could be with Syd but pre tv series David seems more like a total loser than a monster. A lot of the stuff with David didn't make a lot of sense as well. Like he goes evil or just starts lashing out, you can do that but I think you need like a lot of smaller steps on the way to make it fit with the character we got to know a bit. Like David isn't an intellectual guy with big thoughts about ethics but before the last 2 episodes if you told me he was going to put a drill in someone's kneecap or sedate and gently caress his girlfriend I'd have said that's retarded. I mean all the stuff with the monk and the mind prisons was him doing empathy better and learning to listen to people. The guy above mentioned Walter White and that's a good comparison, Walter was probably always a kind of lovely person but he got more and more vile over time so when he does the worst things you're surprised but its of course he did that. That's who he is. Farouk as the mustache twirling villain was great though. I didn't even miss yellow blob man and the angriest boy in the world like I thought I would. I really enjoyed the psychic battle as well. In a shitter show they'd have been throwing fireballs at each other or fighting with not lightsabres
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Jun 14, 2018 22:29
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I had some problems with pacing and such this season, but man I am so psyched to see an unleashed Legion with Aubrey Plaza. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W97I_IRmkdM poo poo timestamp didn't work, oh well. Barreft fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 23:21
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I could be WAY wrong about Farouk in the trial chamber, but I assumed his suppressor crown was off because the whole point of him even being remotely friendly with Div3 was to stop David if he was needed to. That said, he didn't do poo poo, which, I mean, come on. You're lucky he didn't just turn you all to smoke and ash, I guess. Also, for what it's worth, I sort of assumed that the tear they show him shedding after talking to David was to indicate he was being sincere in the moment. (But I suppose it could have been pride/joy tears for realizing he'd finally made a monster of David, or any other thing... hard to know with this show...) [edit] Also going to say that despite how sweet it seemed in the framing, if you really look at how David and Syd interacted, it was that needy, childish high school love where it's more about codependencies and being convinced that "they are my world! I will die without them!!" dramatic poo poo... so yeah, it wasn't all that healthy. Feenix fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 23:25
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rapeface posted:Also, if you guys want more insanity, check the subreddit. There's a stickied mod thread that starts with a definition of rape and gets more insane from there.  The finale owned. I notice the parallels from season one, with the villain grabbing someone and peacing out. Did the flashback mean that David's had his "egg" since the mental hospital when he first saw Syd?
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Jun 14, 2018 23:51
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What was the Persian word Farouk kept calling David? Sounded like "juneim" if that helps. From the context I'm guessing it was just like when a southerner calls you "son" or "boy" so not that important but still curious.
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Jun 14, 2018 23:59
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Feenix posted:I could be WAY wrong about Farouk in the trial chamber, but I assumed his suppressor crown was off because the whole point of him even being remotely friendly with Div3 was to stop David if he was needed to. Did anyone go back and watch the full ending? I haven't but I just felt like Farouk wasn't really there, just a projection. But if they mentioned him being there guess there goes that. ee: "Boo" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74VYxi_LQ60 e: I'm sure this was posted, maybe even by me, but here's the opening with Farouk's Farsi subtitled. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP13Vd4fIoY Barreft fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Jun 15, 2018 |
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Jun 15, 2018 00:05
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Barreft posted:Did anyone go back and watch the full ending? I haven't but I just felt like Farouk wasn't really there, just a projection. But if they mentioned him being there guess there goes that. He physically reacts to the explosion but doesn't get blown back, just sort of braces himself. The weird thing about Farouk making the comment about David being "undone by revenge" is that he spent 30 years hoping to get back at his enemy (Professor X) by loving with his kid's head. Kind of hard to take the stated motivations in the show seriously. night slime fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jun 15, 2018 |
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Jun 15, 2018 00:12
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night slime posted:He physically reacts to the explosion but doesn't get blown back, just sort of braces himself. Oh I don't trust a drat thing Farouk says. The actor is incredible tho. Barreft fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Jun 15, 2018 |
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Jun 15, 2018 00:17
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Barreft posted:Oh I don't trust a drat thing Farouk says. The actor is incredible tho. yeah he's loving fantastic, he's so charismatic I half root for him to win
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Jun 15, 2018 00:27
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Goofballs posted:yeah he's loving fantastic, he's so charismatic I half root for him to win And that's what is so good about him. He's SUPPOSED to be this evil guy who manipulates people. And you see him doing it, but goddamn he's just so, captivating? weird word but I dunno, that you don't even realize he's taking control of everything.
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Jun 15, 2018 00:37
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the more i think about it the more it seems that david also put the delusion birds in other peoples' head as well considering he was working with farouk against fukuyama for the first part of the season, so david killed ptonomy also
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Jun 15, 2018 00:37
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Doorknob Slobber posted:the more i think about it the more it seems that david also put the delusion birds in other peoples' head as well considering he was working with farouk against fukuyama for the first part of the season, so david killed ptonomy also
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Jun 15, 2018 00:43
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night slime posted:What was the Persian word Farouk kept calling David? Sounded like "juneim" if that helps. From the context I'm guessing it was just like when a southerner calls you "son" or "boy" so not that important but still curious. joonam "my dear"
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Jun 15, 2018 00:52
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double nine posted:so what are all the great musical scenes in the show? I remember The cover of White Room in 2x04 was really good
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Jun 15, 2018 01:21
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The Hambulance posted:The cover of White Room in 2x04 was really good ummmm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AfE3TDJwHs
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Jun 15, 2018 01:23
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Barreft posted:ummmm I forgot about that one!
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Jun 15, 2018 01:30
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Doorknob Slobber posted:the more i think about it the more it seems that david also put the delusion birds in other peoples' head as well considering he was working with farouk against fukuyama for the first part of the season, so david killed ptonomy also After seeing the finale, it seems like David and Syd see their dead bodies in the desert tent to signify their relationship dying in the desert. David even says "nothing good" when Syd asks what happened to "them/us" in the desert. My guess for the rewind entering the tent is that both timelines are being shown, i.e. the first and second trips to the desert.
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Jun 15, 2018 01:32
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The Hambulance posted:I forgot about that one! How dare you e: considering it was like 30 years together, isn't David/Farouk like Kerry/Cary? He even says my boy, about David, when no one is around to hear it. gently caress I love this show. Barreft fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Jun 15, 2018 |
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Jun 15, 2018 01:38
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the ptonomy delusion sequence set to nicolas jaar's mi mujer is a really good musical segment imo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RieXq8zGIc
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Jun 15, 2018 02:11
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This show has a lot of rapists for main characters. Shadow King is probably a rapist, David is, syd is a rapist, I bet you lenny has hosed some people who were too messed up to consent
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Jun 15, 2018 03:42
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The Pink Floyd segment at the end of season 1 was also pretty good. I don't think its up there with Bolero or even Behind Blue Eyes, but its really well put together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReyS_IKeXKE
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Jun 15, 2018 04:15
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