|
It's not? Like the author is dealing with a whole imagined world but can't think of anything more interesting for characters to say than expletives. Not to mention it's redundant too.
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 10:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 16:55 |
|
|
Lol, Glotka is a well written fantasy character, the dialogue is really good and you're a pretentious twat (because you seem to think your opinion is more correct/important).
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 10:24
|
|
|
By contrast, I'm not pretentious at all, because I think all the opinions I hold are wrong.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 10:38
|
|
|
Walh Hara posted:Lol, Glotka is a well written fantasy characte Glokta represents a puerile fantasy - the desire for an authority figure who shares and understands the reader's cynicism and frustration, and through them proves himself superior to the corrupt world around them. In truth secret police officers will be people like Captain Pjele from The Land of Green Plums - banal idiots who will nevertheless ruin you, your family, and your friends. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Jun 14, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 10:51
|
|
|
But Glokta's whole thing is he constantly fails, abandons the tiny shreds of morals he had left, drowns in his bitterness and self-pity and merrily skips into no-redemptions no-morals gently caress-itville. I don't think at any point in the narrative are we not reminded at least once every POV chapter that he's a self-loathing, traumatized and crippled rear end in a top hat who's permanently under the thumb of an actual authority figure? If anything, he's middle management.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 10:58
|
|
|
Glokta is wildly successful through the narrative. He proves himself intelligent perceptive enough to outmaneuvre others, and manages to dodge even threats that he had no way of foreseeing (Shickel, Pike). Despite his life being miserable, he has power enough to humiliate and torture others. His story ends with him proving the superiority of his way of life to a man whom he's destroyed, creating another Glokta.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 11:03
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:Glokta is wildly successful through the narrative. He proves himself intelligent perceptive enough to outmaneuvre others, and manages to dodge even threats that he had no way of foreseeing (Shickel, Pike). Despite his life being miserable, he has power enough to humiliate and torture others. His story ends with him incapable of escaping or overcoming a life that he describes as hell, perpetuating the cycle of abuse as an ineffective salve to his own pain and ensuring he's perpetually trapped in misery, while also permanently under the control of Bayaz. He starts as a broken torturer under the thumb of someone, and he ends as... a higher-status torturer under the thumb of someone. Every effort he made to escape that state, help others or do heroics - proving that, at one point, he did want to actually make a less horrendous life for himself - is a hideous failure, he never gains true agency and in the end he's materially wealthier and utterly bankrupt in everything else ... and so I'm not sure where the superiority or success comes from here? We can even contrast his arc with Caul Shivers: Both of them tortured, both have a long arc filled with betrayal, vengeance-hunger and bloody dark acts. But Caul, at the end, manages to set down his grudge and his ending is: "Hey, maybe he's always going to be hosed up, and maybe it's all going to end horrendously, but he's overcome something and right now there's a chance for happiness, friendship and good things," While Glokta's ending is: "at least you can torture people better and you have a nice house to go with your complete and utter empty wreck of a life, i guess, enjoy."
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 11:34
|
|
|
Your argument is that the power and success don't matter because Glokta like, totally feels bad, man. What you're doing is simply justifying the fantasy: sure Glokta is a cool witty sarcastic dude who owns everyone and triumphs, but it sucks that he gets to do that because it's only because he got crippled. You're making a Glokta out to be some kind of "Misery Sue" who suffers all the time and sucks, but is the winner anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 11:42
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:Glokta represents a puerile fantasy - the desire for an authority figure who shares and understands the reader's cynicism and frustration, and through them proves himself superior to the corrupt world around them. this book sounds real lovely
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 13:06
|
|
|
first law is some good pulp fantasy and bravestofthelamps is a sperg
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 15:04
|
|
|
Big Bowie Bonanza posted:first law is some good pulp fantasy and bravestofthelamps is a sperg Agreed. I've enjoyed the trilogy each of the three times I've read it. Might have to pick it back up for some beach reading.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 15:24
|
|
|
Beastie posted:Agreed. I've enjoyed the trilogy each of the three times I've read it. Might have to pick it back up for some beach reading. Jivjov is that you?
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 15:53
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:Glokta represents a puerile fantasy - the desire for an authority figure who shares and understands the reader's cynicism and frustration, and through them proves himself superior to the corrupt world around them. This isn't at all what Glokta does though. He succeeds because of corruption, not in spite of it. By the end he is an agent of the very corruption he spent the first book opposing.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 20:22
|
|
|
Surely you can find something worthwhile in the whole trilogy? The books can't be entirely without merit. There must be at least one little tiny snippet that was enjoyable, or clever, or interesting?. Go on BotL, say one thing for Joe Abercrombie.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 20:43
|
|
|
The Ninth Layer posted:This isn't at all what Glokta does though. He succeeds because of corruption, not in spite of it. By the end he is an agent of the very corruption he spent the first book opposing. I never said that he didn't. Glokta simply has the advantage that he's super cynical and doesn't believe in anything, unlike Sult. Strom Cuzewon posted:Surely you can find something worthwhile in the whole trilogy? The books can't be entirely without merit. There must be at least one little tiny snippet that was enjoyable, or clever, or interesting?. No. It's turtles all the way down, and the turtles are all bad books.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 21:07
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:I never said that he didn't. Glokta simply has the advantage that he's super cynical and doesn't believe in anything, unlike Sult. So why did you read all three of them? Genuinely curious. I've bailed on a series before. My time is too valuable to read books I don't enjoy. Same for movies and games.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 21:44
|
|
|
Beastie posted:So why did you read all three of them? Genuinely curious. I've bailed on a series before. My time is too valuable to read books I don't enjoy. Same for movies and games. Look at his post history in this thread, he was pretty enthusiastic about them for a long time, but I guess that doesn’t work with his current posting gimmick or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 21:48
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:I never said that he didn't. Glokta simply has the advantage that he's super cynical and doesn't believe in anything, unlike Sult. Sure you did, you said he proves himself superior to a corrupt system by triumphing. But this triumph is one of the corrupt system. The tortured becomes the torturer becomes the creator of torturers. Unlike Sult who seeks the trappings of power, Glokta's character motivation throughout the trilogy is merely to survive the machinations of those with power over him. Glokta does not want to be King. His advantage is that he is a more useful servant to Bayaz because he understands his place in the system Bayaz built.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 21:50
|
|
|
The Ninth Layer posted:Sure you did, you said he proves himself superior to a corrupt system by triumphing. But this triumph is one of the corrupt system. The tortured becomes the torturer becomes the creator of torturers. Note that I said nothing about triumphing over "the corrupt system". I said that he proves superior to the corrupt world around him. Mastering "the system" is part of that. The fantasy of Glokta is a character stumbling into power innocently (relatively speaking, of course). He accurately recognizes that the world around him is stupid and anyone holding any ideals is a pompous fool. This viewpoint is essentially true when it comes to how the world is presented, and it aligns with that of the reader. It's a fantasy of intellectual superiority, and the self-pity and villainy justify it by showing that it totally sucks, man. That Glokta triumphs over his adversaries is the fantasy. If it was not a fantasy, Glokta would be outmaneuvred by Goyle, who ends up running the country.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 22:22
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:Note that I said nothing about triumphing over "the corrupt system". I said that he proves superior to the corrupt world around him. Mastering "the system" is part of that. The fantasy of Glokta is a character stumbling into power innocently (relatively speaking, of course). He accurately recognizes that the world around him is stupid and anyone holding any ideals is a pompous fool. This viewpoint is essentially true when it comes to how the world is presented, and it aligns with that of the reader. It's a fantasy of intellectual superiority, and the self-pity and villainy justify it by showing that it totally sucks, man. But Glokta is himself corrupted by the world he lives in. He perpetuates the corruption of this world through his very profession, and his character arc ends with him realizing that he does so because he enjoys it. He triumphs over Sult but only because of submission to and therefore assistance from the forces beyond Sult, and in doing so he only exchanges one master for another arguably worse one. The ending explicitly spells out that Glokta succeeded only because Bayaz assisted him in multiple ways; he did not succeed because of intellectual superiority but because Bayaz provided him material assistance and gave him hints as to how he could take down Sult. In part the ending reveals that Glokta is not as smart as he thinks he is, but rather he is just one piece on a much bigger board than he had thought. He may be sitting at the table of power, but he is playing someone else's hand.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 22:36
|
|
|
Big Bowie Bonanza posted:first law is some good pulp fantasy and bravestofthelamps is a sperg i was going to say this originally but then i googled pulp and its a synonym for bad and cheap
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 22:39
|
|
|
Ugly In The Morning posted:Look at his post history in this thread, he was pretty enthusiastic about them for a long time, but I guess that doesn’t work with his current posting gimmick or whatever. Lol. BravestOfTheLamps posted:All the characters and their stories were great, basically. So this is all just an opportunity for dude to name-drop the totally serious modernist incest fiction he's in to.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 22:40
|
|
|
You are never allowed to change your mind, everThe Ninth Layer posted:But Glokta is himself corrupted by the world he lives in. Readers are perfectly fine with Glokta's moral corruption because it's only moral corruption. Unlike other characters, he doesn't pompously pretend to be anything else, but revels in being terrible. And even when revealed as just one piece, he's rather smug about it. quote:I tire of this. “And blah, blah, loving blah. The stench of self-satisfaction is becoming quite suffocating. If you mean to kill me, blast me to a cinder now and let’s be done, but, for pity’s sake, subject me to no more of your boasting." BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Jun 14, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 22:59
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:Readers are perfectly fine with Glokta's moral corruption because it's only moral corruption. Unlike other characters, he doesn't pompously pretend to be anything else, but revels in being terrible. The text argues against this first point. Glokta is not devoid of morality even if he's reluctant to acknowledge it. He sympathizes with the Dagoskan citizenry and acts on this sympathy, he has a soft spot for women which is later exploited, he is loyal those he considers his friends, even if they turn out not to be as loyal to him. Through characters like West and Ardee the text suggests that Glokta could be a hero after all, if only he wasn't so self-pitying. But instead he thinks of himself as a monster and acts accordingly. The quote you showed reveals irritability, not smugness.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 23:14
|
|
|
The Ninth Layer posted:The text argues against this first point. Glokta is not devoid of morality even if he's reluctant to acknowledge it. He sympathizes with the Dagoskan citizenry and acts on this sympathy, he has a soft spot for women which is later exploited, he is loyal those he considers his friends, even if they turn out not to be as loyal to him. Through characters like West and Ardee the text suggests that Glokta could be a hero after all, if only he wasn't so self-pitying. But instead he thinks of himself as a monster and acts accordingly. I'm not sure you know what you're arguing anymore. Glokta is a figure of cheap fantasy: a secret police officer who represents cynical intellectual superiority.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 23:22
|
|
|
I was going to ask what you meant by "dishonest fantasy" but see that you edited it. Glokta's story is deeper than one of cynical intellectual superiority, despite your attempts to reduce it to that. To say that he triumphs over anything is to ignore that he ends the series where he started, inflicting suffering and ruining lives in service to an inescapable master.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 23:27
|
|
|
The Ninth Layer posted:Glokta's story is deeper than one of cynical intellectual superiority, despite your attempts to reduce it to that. To say that he triumphs over anything is to ignore that he ends the series where he started, inflicting suffering and ruining lives in service to an inescapable master. "Depth" is irrelevant. Your argument seems to be that Glokta doesn't prove superior to a corrupt world because he's a terrible person and thus not better than anyone else. The mistake you've made is first that you don't know what "proving superior" means even after I've clarified it. Glokta proves superior to the world around him because his intelligence and ruthlessness allows him to overcome the challenges before him and defeat his adversaries, who are corrupt because they pompously pretend to be better than they are. The general argument against is that it doesn't matter because he's a bad man and his life sucks. If that was true, then Glokta wouldn't even survive through his adventures. If he actually sucked, he would simply be outplayed by Goyle or Sult and die unceremoniously. But because Glokta serves a fantasy of intellectual superiority, he isn't outplayed by them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 23:48
|
|
|
Glokta isn't outplayed by them because he is given material support, not because he does anything particularly clever. Also you seem to be conflating "Glokta is a bad person and his life sucks" into "Glokta sucks" which isn't what anyone is saying.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2018 23:57
|
|
|
The Ninth Layer posted:Glokta... does anything particularly clever. Well yeah, Abercrombie has never written a character who is genuinely clever. The Ninth Layer posted:Also you seem to be conflating "Glokta is a bad person and his life sucks" into "Glokta sucks" which isn't what anyone is saying. I'm doing the opposite. People point out to Glokta's misery to emphasize how terrible he is and does not reflect a fantasy. What I'm saying is that his personal suffering is immaterial. If he really "sucked" then he would just die ingloriously and Goyle would be running the country.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2018 00:05
|
|
|
His personal suffering informs his entire character. Without it Glokta would be a general, not a torturer. Setting that aside, Glokta still does not prove superior to anything. He spends the majority of the trilogy speculating on when his superiors will decide to unceremoniously dispose of him. The only thing that keeps him alive is his ability to get results, where "results" are whatever his superiors tell him to do. He outlasts Sult and Goyle only because he is a more useful instrument of Bayaz' will. Perhaps it is a fantasy of some readers to show up their incompetent boss, and when viewed in that light sure, Glokta's story is that kind of fantasy. But the ending to his story is explicitly that torturing Sult is a consolation prize; the true happy ending for Glokta would be death at the hands of Pike.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2018 00:38
|
|
|
coolusername posted:
He marries Ardee and she seems to like him so he's got something besides the material.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2018 03:08
|
|
|
Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:So this is all just an opportunity for dude to name-drop the totally serious modernist incest fiction he's in to. Oh so modernist fiction about incest is supposed to be bad now?
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2018 03:12
|
|
|
Huh, saw a ton of posts and thought this got picked up for a series or movie or something. But then it turned out BotL just posted something in here. Gotta say, this could turn out to be just as entertaining. I've never seen someone that hates books so much but loves to talk about them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2018 04:08
|
|
|
in botl's mind he trolls as good as joe abercrombie writes fantasy irl
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2018 04:41
|
|
|
A human heart posted:Oh so modernist fiction about incest is supposed to be bad now? If you enjoyed reading it then you suck you loving simp.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2018 04:46
|
|
|
Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:If you enjoyed reading it then you suck you loving simp. Are you ok my man
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2018 06:07
|
|
|
A human heart posted:Oh so modernist fiction about incest is supposed to be bad now? Postmodernist genre misery porn is superior, clearly. The Ninth Layer posted:Setting that aside, Glokta still does not prove superior to anything. He spends the majority of the trilogy speculating on when his superiors will decide to unceremoniously dispose of him. The only thing that keeps him alive is his ability to get results, where "results" are whatever his superiors tell him to do. He outlasts Sult and Goyle only because he is a more useful instrument of Bayaz' will. So he's not superior to anyone because he's... competetent enough to survive and thrive in his environment? That doesn't seem to follow. quote:The First of the Magi watched him, the same look in his bright eyes that a man might have while watching an interesting beetle. “I must admit that you fascinate me, Superior. Your life would seem to be entirely unbearable. And yet you fight so very, very hard to stay alive. With every weapon and stratagem. You simply refuse to die.”
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2018 07:59
|
|
|
I am enjoying people reimagining the plot of the series so that they don't have admit that the cool witty sarcastic viewpoint character is a self-insert fantasy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2018 08:00
|
|
|
I'm enjoying you reimagining the plot series so you don't have to admit Glokta is a mangled torturer who ends the book series in as bad a situation or worse as the one he started in.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2018 09:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 16:55 |
|
|
That's simply not true. He's better off than when he started. The way his suffering is constantly underlined only makes it clear that his suffering doesn't really matter at all. He's still a powerful man of wealth and influence. He's more powerful than before he was crippled. The suffering is a justification of this fantasy, which allows readers to believe that he's better for having been purified of any pride and pretensions, and that they aren't "really" enjoying the cynicism, sadism and nihilism. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 10:06 on Jun 15, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2018 10:01
|
|