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Tomn posted:The short version is that the civilization-building aspect is fantastic with some sneaky subtle twists, while the combat is horrific hot poo poo. Basically it works like this: You move your units into a hex, and give them vague orders about what to do in battle. When the turn ends, all units move simultaneously and if they get close enough to each other they fight. This happens without your control at all, as the AI then moves units around in accordance with those preplanned orders. However, the AI pathfinding is incredibly bad so what your units actually do have only the loosest connection with what you ordered, and it is not uncommon to see a unit charge forward, completely miss enemy units, and stand there picking their noses while a major battle is going on right next to them and they could turn around and flank the enemy right there and then if they weren't being imbeciles about it. It sounds like Dominions but with less options.
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Jun 15, 2018 11:08
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Angry Lobster posted:It sounds like Dominions but with less options. It's a lot worse because the units are on the actual map wandering around for battle but normally they are hex-bound. It's.. really awkward.
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Jun 15, 2018 11:09
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To elaborate on the clever bits, when you start the game out you rely at first on levies, peasant and nobles, for your military forces. These are free to raise, but cost maintenance to keep in the field, are drawn from a slowly replenishing pool of recruits, and cause unrest in their respective social classes when you draw on them and keep them in the field. Critically, they can suppress unrest, but not of their own class - nobles can suppress peasant unrest but will do nothing about noble unrest, and same again with peasants for peasants. So you're encouraged to only raise armies when you need them, and to do so with a light hand to avoid causing too many issues with unrest. Eventually, however, you unlock the ability to raise trained troops. These cost money to raise and maintain and have their own recruitment pool, but crucially they cause no unrest when raised and can suppress both peasant AND noble unrest. They're not necessarily the best fighters - nobles are superior - but you can raise more of them, and they can keep a lid on society. This means that increasingly states are encouraged to rely more and more on trained units loyal to the state to protect themselves from both internal and external threats. This gets expensive, though, so you're further encouraged to pass reforms that lay an increasing burden of taxation and oppression to pay for the trained troops you're maintaining to keep the people suppressed, and eventually you end up with a powerful, coercive state with a large army that has to keep a significant fraction of its strength at home to quell unrest. A very neat way of organically depicting the increased centralization of power, I thought.
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Jun 15, 2018 11:31
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my main issues with oriental empires were that it was all bit too simple and it was incredibly easy to win a cultural victory ( i forgot what exactly they called it) by accident and without ever even getting a fight. if i wasnt actively engaging enemies, which mostly wasn’t worth it, it felt more like i was playing sim city with multiple people
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Jun 15, 2018 12:00
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The best part about oriental empires is that you can be running a bit low on food, then suddenly a drought hits, then half of your poo poo rebels, and you are like, yah this is china. The other nice thing is that cities normally take up like a 2 or 3 radius but can get up to 5 or 6. To have a truly large city, you have to have lots of planning, good land, and hope no one settles near it. Trade is a bit wonky, but you can end up building a silk road. Third World Reagan fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Jun 15, 2018 |
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Jun 15, 2018 13:39
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Vargatron posted:Is there a trick to getting your units to go through gates properly in Shogun 2? Seems like I have to really micromanage my units to go up the ramps and into the gates; otherwise they try to jump over the walls. I'm not sure what to tell you since I've never had a problem with it. If a gate is locked then you need to target it (and not the gateway) to burn it down. Otherwise pathing should work normally. Use waypoints if your troops are getting confused.
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Jun 15, 2018 14:08
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Hmm, that's odd. I sabotaged the gates so they were all open. Maybe I just did something dumb or misclicked.
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Jun 15, 2018 14:29
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For those who follow Total War closely, is there any sign that Three Kingdoms will implement some form of logistics? From talking to a friend, it seems like supplies were a decisive element of warfare in that era - but Total War doesn't do supply lines...
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Jun 15, 2018 15:53
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I've been wanting them to do supplies for awhile but most people would hate that I guess. I want armies to move faster or slower based on size or have a point buy as well so I am weird. Currently money and upkeep is their supply system. In one of the rise of the three kingdoms games, you can only take your guys out for so long based on food on hand, food you give them, and how large of an army they are. They can only carry so much. You can reduce the required amount by building camps outside, but it stops you from going from one side of the map to the other.
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Jun 15, 2018 16:09
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They haven't said anything about the campaign map yet but I think supply is a big enough change that they'd probably be mentioning it already in the same way they've been talking up characters since before it was announced, so I doubt that'll be in.Tomn posted:it is not uncommon to see a unit charge forward, completely miss enemy units, and stand there picking their noses while a major battle is going on right next to them and they could turn around and flank the enemy right there and then if they weren't being imbeciles about it. not like this wasn't a thing that routinely happened historically  but yeah it definitely wasn't the devs' intention. I don't mind the combat personally but it definitely isn't the game's strength, despite them billing it as a major feature.What I love about Oriental Empires is the sense of progress you get for your state, it's one of the best strategy games for that IMO, the reforms you pass have extremely tangible effects and change how you can use the land and your people as the game goes on.
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Jun 15, 2018 16:26
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I've been playing DeI with its supply system and it took me way longer than it should have to figure out how it works (as it turns out very logically and reasonably). I had an army in Pergamon that was getting devastated by attrition and I had the supply building. Couldn't figure it out until it dawned on me that it was a landlocked city and I didn't have a nearby port to bring in supplies from. It's a great mechanic that adds another layer of depth to a campaign, but, I don't think more complex campaigns are the way the wind is blowing for CA.
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Jun 15, 2018 17:11
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Sperglord posted:For those who follow Total War closely, is there any sign that Three Kingdoms will implement some form of logistics? From talking to a friend, it seems like supplies were a decisive element of warfare in that era - but Total War doesn't do supply lines... Incredible post/name combo
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Jun 15, 2018 17:27
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Every TW has fantasized scenarios and units, I never said otherwise. But the first TW based on the classical\antiquity era wasn't an Illiad based game nor a modern era game being based on the Lusiads, is what i'm saying. And again, I really like the way the game is developing and I totally get what they're gunning for, it just feels like you need to go through a few extra steps to sell a non Euro historical based game while when it comes to europe you can just go "hey here's a brown map with potato sack infantry versus vikings in the british isles" and it sells. Cause they kinda literally did that. This is going to be a sick as hell game, do never think I consider it otherwise.
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Jun 15, 2018 17:44
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I really enjoy hearing the line "one of your units is running away. A SHAMEFUL DISPLAY!". It kind of makes it okay that my yari ashigaru fodder was router.
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Jun 15, 2018 18:06
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Mans posted:"hey here's a brown map with potato sack infantry versus vikings in the british isles" and it sells. Did it? Game just came out and nobody is talking about it here or on reddit. I certainly didn't buy it.
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Jun 15, 2018 18:08
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Senor Dog posted:Incredible post/name combo You're welcome.
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Jun 15, 2018 18:46
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Sperglord posted:You're welcome. I actually agree that a supply system could be neat I just couldn’t resist the joke
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Jun 15, 2018 18:50
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idk Mans, have you seen the main media depictions of that era that originate from China? It tends to be a lot of stuff like what we've been shown, maybe a little more toned down but not by a lot. I'm not really reading some cynical "this is the only way they'll buy this!"-reasoning for them to go for an ultra-popular-in-China take on the era.
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Jun 15, 2018 19:34
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ToB is fun and features braveheart looking celts fighting vikings who wear guyliner
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Jun 15, 2018 19:52
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Senor Dog posted:I actually agree that a supply system could be neat I just couldn’t resist the joke Haha, true. For supply system, I don't really anything complicated or detailed, just enough to make it a strategic factor in campaigns.
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Jun 15, 2018 19:53
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The problem with any campaign complications is that the AI either has to be taught to understand how they work, or just cheat and ignore them. The latter is frustrating because it means you'd end up with armies roaming around deep in your territory suffering no penalties from lack of supply while you can't do the same to them, and the former, well, just look at how well the AI handles the mechanics that already exist.
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Jun 15, 2018 20:05
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gotta say i think the single worst idea in the history of total war is rome/medieval 2 diplomats
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Jun 15, 2018 20:42
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StashAugustine posted:gotta say i think the single worst idea in the history of total war is rome/medieval 2 diplomats Yeah, it is one of the several things that made me bounce right off Medieval 2 when I fancied replaying it about two years ago.
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Jun 15, 2018 21:13
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yeah im replaying m2 and liking it way more than i expected but that's one of the big issues, lessened by the fact that the ai is completely psychotic and will inevitably attack you. the other big issue is that unit ai is kinda wonky- good formed charges are hard to pull off for example. i do like a lot of the other stuff in the game, and idk why but i seem to be having more open field battle than in other games
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Jun 15, 2018 21:27
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The only thing I really want to see back from M2 is the Kingdoms-style campaigns. Which the Rome2 dlcs kinda do soo. I think I’ve said in this thread before, but I think Kingdoms is the way to go for a victorian game, rather than trying and failing to do a world map.
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Jun 15, 2018 21:36
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The only thing I really want to see back from M2 is the Kingdoms-style campaigns. Forgetting about big lists o' character traits, are we?
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Jun 15, 2018 21:56
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The only thing I really want to see back from M2 is the Kingdoms-style campaigns. Which the Rome2 dlcs kinda do soo. The short campaigns in Napoleon too. Sure, they won't give that many hours of gameplay, but it feels nice to have a Total War campaign you can wrap up in an afternoon or so, and they're often memorable.
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Jun 15, 2018 22:31
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I never played Napoleon since it came right after Empire and looked to be basically the exact same game, was that a bad move? I also own FotS and never played a campaign.... should probably work on my TW backlog
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Jun 15, 2018 22:37
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The Duggler posted:I never played Napoleon since it came right after Empire and looked to be basically the exact same game, was that a bad move? Between Empire and Napoleon is kind of the dividing line between the older, jankier, Total War games, and the more "modern" ones that have a bunch of quality-of-life improvements that it's hard to give up (like army replenishment in the field, not needing to have every single soldier of a unit in position before they can fire/whatever, etc). Napoleon is really better in every way, the only advantage Empire has is its enormous map.
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Jun 15, 2018 22:46
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Sperglord posted:From talking to a friend, it seems like supplies were a decisive element of warfare in that era The same could be said for any war in any era. That reminds me, one of the things that’s always bugged me about Total War is where are all the baggage trains? I don’t really care that much about some detailed supply system that the player has to manage, but it would be nice for baggage trains to at least be visually represented. The TW games are all about super slick graphics and battlefields crammed with little visual details, so where are they? I never see them depicted in movies either. Historical medieval armies usually had huge baggage/wagon trains that sometimes stretched for miles down the road. When you’re campaigning for weeks and months on end, you need places to carry your poo poo. These supply trains were vulnerable to being raided so they needed to be protected as well. During battle, each side would have a big baggage park behind the lines. At Agincourt, the English baggage park got raided by a bunch of rampaging peasants while the English were distracted fighting the battle. In the TW games, it’s especially obvious during siege assaults. The attackers can build these huge loving siege towers and rams but you can’t see their siege camps where they built that poo poo. In that Three Kingdoms video from E3 though, it almost looks like you can see a siege camp behind the attacking army, but just barely. They never turn the drat camera around so you can look at it.
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Jun 15, 2018 22:47
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ZearothK posted:The short campaigns in Napoleon too. Sure, they won't give that many hours of gameplay, but it feels nice to have a Total War campaign you can wrap up in an afternoon or so, and they're often memorable. Peninsular War dlc was good too. Where I think Kingdoms really shined compared to any mini-campaign since is how it felt like a proper tw- you had a good number of factions that, as in grand campaign, you could viably choose from based on historical interest or their roster’s strengths or whatever. The later ones tend to have one or two obvious “protagonist” factions and then some hangers-on.
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Jun 15, 2018 23:06
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I feel like a big, full world Total War could work if they actually made it big enough that you realistically couldn't actually conquor the whole world. Make it more like a Paradox game where you pick where you want to go and set your own objectives. The problem here of course would be turn times - based on Mortal Empires they'd have to do a LOT of optimization to get a sizeable world with a ton of different factions/nations that actually plays at a decent enough pace where the huge size doesn't feel like a slog. If a turn blew by in a second or two, it wouldn't really be that big a deal if it takes 5+ turns to travel around the continent with your armies. If the turn timers are a good half minute each though, that gets boring really fast.
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Jun 15, 2018 23:12
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I hope they bring the Brett/Tomb King style victory conditions to the historical games. I love how open ended they are and that I don’t have to get into the autoresolve fest endgame stuff. This probably wouldn’t work for Wu, Shu, and Wei since I can’t imagine not having them unite China to win. But maybe the tertiary factions could get it.
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Jun 15, 2018 23:51
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You win by building a land of Benevolence! But smaller scenarios would be great.
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Jun 16, 2018 14:05
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Is there a goon discord group for the Total War series? I didnt't see anything like that listed in the OP.
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Jun 18, 2018 14:01
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Vargatron posted:Is there a goon discord group for the Total War series? I didnt't see anything like that listed in the OP. There sure is! https://discord.gg/RWccd2U
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Jun 18, 2018 17:31
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KazigluBey posted:idk Mans, have you seen the main media depictions of that era that originate from China? It tends to be a lot of stuff like what we've been shown, maybe a little more toned down but not by a lot. I'm not really reading some cynical "this is the only way they'll buy this!"-reasoning for them to go for an ultra-popular-in-China take on the era. StashAugustine posted:gotta say i think the single worst idea in the history of total war is rome/medieval 2 diplomats Merchants were even worse.
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Jun 18, 2018 17:51
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Having my level 8 merchant parked in Timbuktu get ganked by some level 1 Moorish merchant with a 5% success rate never ceases to infuriate me.
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Jun 18, 2018 18:20
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Yeah, at least diplomats didn’t matter because every ai faction was pretty much presumed a hellwar in the making.
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Jun 18, 2018 18:25
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I'm glad that the AI is less prone to declaring war by sending a singular ship to blockade your port after decades of peace. And diplomats were the worst because if you didn't get deals enough their negotiating skill went down, so they wouldn't be able to make deals, so their skill went down etc.
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Jun 19, 2018 06:06
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