|
Volguus posted:She would miss on 2 weeks pay too. It may or may not be relevant though. I do have to move to Boston, find a place for 5 weeks, and then move to NYC, so I'm trying to draw that fine line between "I hate this loving place so much, I wish my boss would be boiled alive" and "I need money". It's a very very fine line edit: this is a terrible snipe oh jeeze. Here’s part of an interesting series of posts I saw on helping diversity in tech and artificial barriers https://twitter.com/tameverts/status/1007301534416138240 Shirec fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jun 18, 2018 |
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 17:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 07:01 |
|
|
TIL treating all applicants the same is exclusionary.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 17:49
|
|
|
withoutclass posted:TIL treating all applicants the same is exclusionary. It is when you treat them all as a 20 something white men that have nothing but free time and no other responsibilities than your interview process.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 17:52
|
|
|
Calling everything you don't like "lazy" is lazy!!
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 17:56
|
|
|
I think we all know what is wrong and terrible with interviews, the challenge is finding things that are not. Aside from the majority of companies copying others there is a significant problem due to high renumeration that there are applicants willing and coached to game the system. Bloomberg suffers this a lot with NYC with every recruiter offering interview classes. I have still yet to in my entire career gain a full time job offer from a developer interview, I have to workaround the system with freelancing or systems architect type titles. I mean they may be right and I would suck in those roles, but I do wonder how companies would attempt to interview for the positions I have had which I only had to chat with a non-technical manager for. MrMoo fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Jun 18, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 18:03
|
|
|
withoutclass posted:TIL treating all applicants the same is exclusionary. The Fool posted:It is when you treat them all as a 20 something white men that have nothing but free time and no other responsibilities than your interview process. I've def seen a lot (reading along in the oldies thread and my own experiences) where some interviews ask a lot of you. Whole entire days, weekends of work, hours and hours of prep. Not everyone can manage to do that, nor should everyone be expected to imo. Also for GitHub/Stack Overflow, I haven't had the time to do a lot of side projects since I started working a proper dev job. Sometimes I'm working 60 hours a week, and if a potential employer is going to look at my current Git output and think I'm not motivated enough for them, it's yet another hurdle. And I'm sure we all know how whiteboarding can be a bunch of bull Fellatio del Toro posted:Calling everything you don't like "lazy" is lazy!! Haha I didn't think of that! I think it's just a rhetorical device since this was going along with a conference presentation. MrMoo posted:I think we all know what is wrong and terrible with interviews, the challenge is finding things that are not. True. It's a big challenge. From what I was reading of Ms. Crayton's presentation, her argument is that the values being tested for need to change. Emphasizing what is often just shoved into "soft skills". I did like the slide though cause it summed a lot of my less concrete thoughts
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 18:10
|
|
|
MrMoo posted:I think we all know what is wrong and terrible with interviews, the challenge is finding things that are not. Yeah, "Stop being lazy" isn't actually useful or actionable advice. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 18:11
|
|
|
Keetron posted:Are you a local or visiting from abroad? I'm a local, why are you asking?
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 18:12
|
|
|
The best part about interviewing for my current job was when they said HR was making them conduct all the first-round interviews via video chat, so nobody would have an unfair advantage of being in the same room with the panel. In the process of attempting to be inclusionary, they actually excluded me (and who knows who else), because I had no devices capable of video chat! Fortunately, I was able to borrow my girlfriend's laptop. If I'm ever interviewing anybody here, I'm going to insist that they drop that policy. (During our eventual video chat, they hung up after one second, then, after reconnecting, flailed around for several minutes, trying to get their microphone to work, while nobody have me any kind of signals that they could, in fact, hear me and were working on it.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 18:14
|
|
|
Shirec posted:True. It's a big challenge. From what I was reading of Ms. Crayton's presentation, her argument is that the values being tested for need to change. Emphasizing what is often just shoved into "soft skills". I did like the slide though cause it summed a lot of my less concrete thoughts This is one of those points that I broadly agree wholeheartedly with but am fundamentally unable to think of alternatives to (because I am a white male twentysomething) I get that it's important to respect peoples' time and understand that whiteboarding isn't representative of their real-world ability, but what happens when you get a person who is a great real-world developer who locks up when they see a whiteboard and has a family that takes up most of the time in which they'd do a take-home? At a certain point it's necessary to assess ability, because all the soft skills in the world won't help you actually deliver.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 18:28
|
|
|
The Fool posted:Yeah, "Stop being lazy" isn't actually useful or actionable advice. TBF, I think her job is education on diversity and inclusion. So it probs wouldn't be a great business model to just tell everyone what to do when they ask for free. And I can't imagine every company needs the same solution! I'm watching her presentation now since I posted the slide, and I think it's a really good prime the pump of getting people thinking about it. It's called Unintended Consequences: How to Reduce Exclusionary Practices if y'all want to google. edit: She def does go through actionable stuff in her presentation ChickenWing posted:This is one of those points that I broadly agree wholeheartedly with but am fundamentally unable to think of alternatives to (because I am a white male twentysomething) Yeah I think it's really sticky and it's evolved like it has due to it being easiest. I think the best way to test technical skills I've experienced are really tightly created take home problems that are meant to only take max 1-2 hours. They can be tricky, but are deliberately very very short. I think a lot of this is conversations needing to happen and listening to those people who are being unintentionally excluded, and brainstorming from there. Shirec fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Jun 18, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 18:42
|
|
|
A similar area was posted about on the BBC recently, gender bias in job description language.quote:A job description that uses the phrase "We're looking for someone to manage a team" may seem innocuous enough. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44399028
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 18:55
|
|
|
"Find inherently noisy, uncontrollable process and come up with a system that you claim offers control over it" seems like a pretty sound business model.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 19:04
|
|
|
Fellatio del Toro posted:Calling everything you don't like "lazy" is lazy!! An industry steeped in Puritan work ethic and capitalist sentiments can only be shamed by insinuating that it is intentionally “unproductive”. It doesn’t give a poo poo about anything else.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 20:20
|
|
|
Shirec posted:
Don't give them any notice. Normally I'd consider it a huge mistake to not do it but they do not deserve any respect and I can 100% guarantee that your company would poo poo talk you to references anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 20:28
|
|
New job just emailed to let me know that they'll hopefully have the paperwork ready to go by the end of the week. I want to put in my two weeks so bad I can taste it.
|
Carbon dioxide posted:I'm a local, why are you asking? So am I, but I guess I won't have to show a local around as I would have offered a goon from far away.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 20:32
|
|
|
Yes, best to avoid opportunities to forge a lifelong friendship, fellow Dutchies!
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 21:21
|
|
|
Show me the way to the closest stroopwafel and then get the hell out of my way, imo.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 21:32
|
|
|
Volmarias posted:Don't give them any notice. Normally I'd consider it a huge mistake to not do it but they do not deserve any respect and I can 100% guarantee that your company would poo poo talk you to references anyway. The current advice I’m getting from friends is to do it Rihanna style. I’m trying to gather up the nerves but I think quitting and walking out is my current plan! Maybe not Rihanna style cause I’m def not that good
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 21:33
|
|
|
Shirec posted:The current advice I’m getting from friends is to do it Rihanna style. I’m trying to gather up the nerves but I think quitting and walking out is my current plan! Maybe not Rihanna style cause I’m def not that good Just work until the paycheck you want comes in and then leave any work items at your desk and ghost it. And then report the violation.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2018 23:10
|
|
|
Whiteboarding is basically an IQ test that is related to the job activity, and there's decent evidence that it correlates with on the job performance.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 00:53
|
|
|
The Fool posted:It is when you treat them all as a 20 something white men that have nothing but free time and no other responsibilities than your interview process. Absolutely, but then maybe that's what they're selecting for, sadly. I'm not really sure where this heinous "do this 48 hour assignment for us" garbage came from but I imagine it'd go away a lot faster if people stopped trying to work at those places. Shirec posted:I've def seen a lot (reading along in the oldies thread and my own experiences) where some interviews ask a lot of you. Whole entire days, weekends of work, hours and hours of prep. Not everyone can manage to do that, nor should everyone be expected to imo. Also for GitHub/Stack Overflow, I haven't had the time to do a lot of side projects since I started working a proper dev job. Sometimes I'm working 60 hours a week, and if a potential employer is going to look at my current Git output and think I'm not motivated enough for them, it's yet another hurdle. I absolutely agree. Hell, just read Good Will Hrunting's(sp) post history for the last forever. It's like some hell dimension that he's living in. As for the github thing, I don't really do side stuff outside of work. I have other stuff I like to do, and I've used that line of thinking multiple times effectively during interviews, plus, you're fairly new to the profession so having little github code is no big deal.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 02:30
|
|
|
MrMoo posted:Aside from the majority of companies copying others there is a significant problem due to high renumeration that there are applicants willing and coached to game the system. Bloomberg suffers this a lot with NYC with every recruiter offering interview classes. As a Bloomberg employee, I haven't done too many interviews recently, but about a year ago I was probably doing 2 phone screens a week. 80% of them couldn't even finish Fizzbuzz in HackerRank and in a few cases it seemed likely that the person on the phone was communicating with somebody else who was actually trying to do the problem. A lot of people probably roll through trying to hit the money jackpot. I do my best to be sympathetic during interviews and not probe people for book knowledge. There are certain minimum things that I have to gauge people on, like, if you can't write Fizzbuzz, then I'm kind of doubtful you can conceptualize problems algorithmically, and that's an issue. Beyond that, though, I'm not going to pepper people with trivia questions like "name the sysctl variable", because when was the last time I had to conjure that kind of stuff out of thin air? I am frequently reminded by gaps in my knowledge of my autodidactic career path, so I don't have a lot of textbook knowledge to draw upon anyway. I'm most interested in hearing about what people have done before and whether they've been able to synthesize that knowledge into a more generalized understanding. As
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 02:57
|
|
|
chutwig posted:and how many fingers a developer should lose when they ask if you can make an exception just this one time and manually push their app to prod because retro is in 15 minutes and they really need it there to demo with live data. It's all of them, right? Expect my resume shortly.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 03:14
|
|
|
CPColin posted:Show me the way to the closest stroopwafel and then get the hell out of my way, imo. You can get them at the airport and gently caress right off on the plane home. I could also send you some, just so you stay away entirely.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 05:35
|
|
|
Keetron posted:You can get them at the airport and gently caress right off on the plane home. I could also send you some, just so you stay away entirely. I haven't been since 2002  (but my mom will probably bring me some when she visits in a month!)
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 05:45
|
|
|
Ik wil een stroopwafel...  Zo lekker.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 06:01
|
|
|
I wasn't kidding, just send me a PM and I will ship you a bunch of stroopwafels and other local foods.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 10:24
|
|
|
NovemberMike posted:Whiteboarding is basically an IQ test that is related to the job activity, and there's decent evidence that it correlates with on the job performance.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 10:25
|
|
|
NovemberMike posted:Whiteboarding is basically an IQ test that is related to the job activity, and there's decent evidence that it correlates with on the job performance. I'd be really interested to see the research and evidence here. "Whiteboarding" is incredibly vague and can be applied to everything from behavioral interviews ("tell me about a time when you were faced with a complex problem. OK, now please diagram out your solution and walk me through it") to trivia ("write an optimal quicksort implementation on the board from memory; you have five minutes").
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 11:24
|
|
|
chutwig posted:As a Bloomberg employee, I haven't done too many interviews recently, but about a year ago I was probably doing 2 phone screens a week. 80% of them couldn't even finish Fizzbuzz in HackerRank and in a few cases it seemed likely that the person on the phone was communicating with somebody else who was actually trying to do the problem. A lot of people probably roll through trying to hit the money jackpot. Bloomberg just rejected me and I never even got a chance to fall flat on my face by failing fizzbuzz, so I suspect if you're getting a ton of awful phone screens through there are some problems with the hiring process generally.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 13:03
|
|
|
Vulture Culture posted:When looking at stochastic processes, it's important to understand the difference between sensitivity and specificity. When you think about exclusion and exclusionary behaviors, you're concerned with specificity. Ok, now take the stick out of your rear end and say it like a normal person. I understand the words you're saying but I'm not going to define them for you so I can call you an idiot. Space Gopher posted:I'd be really interested to see the research and evidence here. Whiteboarding doesn't refer to how well you can draw dickbutt on a white board. Hth. And you're not going to stop people from giving bad interviews no matter what method you choose unless you're in a position to actually slap them on the wrist when they ask a retarded trivia question. NovemberMike fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Jun 19, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 13:21
|
|
|
chutwig posted:As a Bloomberg employee, I haven't done too many interviews recently, but about a year ago I was probably doing 2 phone screens a week. 80% of them couldn't even finish Fizzbuzz in HackerRank and in a few cases it seemed likely that the person on the phone was communicating with somebody else who was actually trying to do the problem. A lot of people probably roll through trying to hit the money jackpot. Do you provide that feedback upwards about the quality of the candidates making it past the recruiters to the phone screen? We have some recruiter tech screen questions which are basically absolute right / wrong answers and the recruiter is listening for things like “Are you googling it?” “Did you phone a friend?” And transcribe the answer Incase they’re not sure if it’s right or wrong and the answer is what’s sent to the person doing the tech phone screen of, “Do you want to continue with this person here’s resume and screen answers.” It takes 5-10 minutes of time but it’s better than wasting 60 minutes scheduled on someone who can’t buzz the fizz.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 13:55
|
|
|
My current job opened the interview process with a ~90min hackerrank challenge before the phone interview. Was actually kind of fun and I imagine it filters out the completely unqualified people.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 14:03
|
|
|
NovemberMike posted:Ok, now take the stick out of your rear end and say it like a normal person. I understand the words you're saying but I'm not going to define them for you so I can call you an idiot.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 14:20
|
|
|
Hughlander posted:Do you provide that feedback upwards about the quality of the candidates making it past the recruiters to the phone screen? We have some recruiter tech screen questions which are basically absolute right / wrong answers and the recruiter is listening for things like “Are you googling it?” “Did you phone a friend?” And transcribe the answer Incase they’re not sure if it’s right or wrong and the answer is what’s sent to the person doing the tech phone screen of, “Do you want to continue with this person here’s resume and screen answers.” It takes 5-10 minutes of time but it’s better than wasting 60 minutes scheduled on someone who can’t buzz the fizz. This works for as long as it takes the list to show up in a search for "Interviewing at <XYZ>"
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 14:49
|
|
|
NovemberMike posted:Whiteboarding is basically an IQ test that is related to the job activity, and there's decent evidence that it correlates with on the job performance. Show us the evidence.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 15:08
|
|
|
ultrafilter posted:Show us the evidence.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 15:09
|
|
|
Whiteboard it if you can. You have an hour.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 15:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 07:01 |
|
|
ultrafilter posted:Show us the evidence. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4557354/ If you want the whiteboard correlation, it's basically similar but the datasets are proprietary so you'd have to join a big company that does them like Facebook, Google, Microsoft etc and get onto a hiring committee. It's basically the same though, not a super strong correlation but it's there. Vulture Culture posted:It sounds like now we're discussing sensitivity. Honestly, I just wanted you to give a lay definition of stochastic process and try to explain how hiring is one.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 17:18
|
|