|
Omnomnomnivore posted:“ATM machine” Salsa sauce Chai tea German people
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 02:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 01:13 |
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:Is there a specific work of art, early museum display, or something that caused the lorica segmentata to become the default portrayal of classical legions? All Romans were short squat black haired dudes who spoke Latin and wore either lorica segmentata or togas with laurel crowns and lived in houses with red tiled roofs and constantly said "By Zeus!"
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 03:38
|
|
|
You mean Jupiter. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 03:44
|
|
|
Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:All Romans were short squat black haired dudes who spoke Latin and wore either lorica segmentata or togas with laurel crowns and lived in houses with red tiled roofs and constantly said "By Zeus!" One of the most enjoyable things about reading Plato is all of the weird exclamations people make. "By the dog, Socrates!" etc.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 03:49
|
|
|
Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:All Romans were short squat black haired dudes who spoke Latin and wore either lorica segmentata or togas with laurel crowns and lived in houses with red tiled roofs and constantly said "By Zeus!" I’m pretty sure they spoke the Queen’s English
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 03:50
|
|
|
Ynglaur posted:You mean Jupiter. I did actually.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 03:51
|
|
|
FreudianSlippers posted:Salsa sauce who the gently caress says 'salsa sauce'
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 04:55
|
|
|
Grand Prize Winner posted:who the gently caress says 'salsa sauce' I see “mole sauce” quite often.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 05:04
|
|
|
skasion posted:It’s prominently featured on Trajan’s column, which is probably the most obvious Roman depiction of what Roman soldiers looked like. Yep. Pretty much all pop culture artistic depiction of Roman soldiers is straight from Trajan's Column since it's one of the best and most complete pieces of art about the legions, and on there we think all the soldiers are wearing lorica segmentata as shorhtand to make sure the viewer immediately recognizes them. They're often wearing it in situations where they wouldn't have in reality (like while building walls) and we're pretty sure the legions always had a mix of different armors. It stuck because lorica hamata is just mail and mail all looks more or less the same, while lorica squamata never gets any respect. Lorica segmentata is cool and immediately says Roman, since nobody else ever used armor that looked the same.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 05:06
|
|
|
There's absolutely a linear progression where Romans had their native Gods be bound up with Greek ones in a syncretic narrative, then they got more and more enthralled with weird Eastern cults and mystery religions, then they slid into monotheistic Sun worship, then finally into Christianity, but all many budding scholars or amateur historians know is "first polytheistic paganism, then Christianity out of nowhere."
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2018 06:07
|
|
|
Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:All Romans were short squat black haired dudes who spoke Latin and wore either lorica segmentata or togas with laurel crowns and lived in houses with red tiled roofs and constantly said "By Zeus!" <Carefully takes notes> Oh yeah! Going to impress the next classics professor I run into. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 18:15
|
|
|
Deptfordx posted:<Carefully takes notes> If you want to really make an impression, while you're shaking their hand you should tell them pedicabo vos et irrumabo.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 20:51
|
|
|
Well that evening took an unexpected turn. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2018 23:24
|
|
|
On a more serious note, I did have a question I've been wondering about. What was the historical value of gems compared to modern times? Obviously hard to compare in currency values, but what about say their historical verses their modern value in Silver or Gold. Were any gems prized especially highly, were Diamonds still the most valuable?
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 15:32
|
|
|
Amber was prized highly enough that the Romans had trade routes all the way up to the Baltic to get it. There were also things like red coral which we don't think of as gems, but I'd argue had the same sort of role. I'm not actually sure about anything else though. My assumption is yes, they do show up in crowns and whatnot. Diamond value is almost entirely the result of modern propaganda about weddings and the DeBeers cartel, so those certainly were different.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 15:39
|
|
|
Rich Romans definitely had a fondness for Egyptian emeralds: they referred to the mining region (near Luxor I believe) as Mons Smaragdus. I don’t know if there’s any way to assess their value though. That tends to be difficult even for staple crops, let alone luxury items.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 15:45
|
|
|
Yeah the reason you hear about gold and silver is those were monetary items, used in coinage and just by weight. Gems certainly had value. There's probably a PhD thesis buried somewhere trying to figure it out.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 15:49
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:There were also things like red coral which we don't think of as gems, but I'd argue had the same sort of role. I'm not actually sure about anything else though. Jade, I guess. At least specifically in China.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 16:00
|
|
|
There's absolutely no way precious stones weren't valuable then, even if they had different values individually compared to what they have today. Look at the composition of Tutankhamun's mask or something--everything in that's gotta have been prestigious to them or at least had some symbolic meaning (which would have made it more valuable). For more specific ones, lapus lazuli is practically the precious stone of the ancient near east isn't it? The stuff comes up all the time in ancient literature and artifacts.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 16:23
|
|
|
Carnelian is important, it promotes bravery in war and it won't stick to hot wax so people make seals out of it
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 16:29
|
|
|
Jade is weird in that it was highly valued in the Sinosphere and some Mesoamerican civilizations but nobody else seems to have cared all that much.Koramei posted:For more specific ones, lapus lazuli is practically the precious stone of the ancient near east isn't it? The stuff comes up all the time in ancient literature and artifacts. Lapis is a huge one because it's so strikingly colored you don't confuse it with anything else, and in ancient times only came from far away in northern Afghanistan so by having it you're flashing a big "I'm rich" sign.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 16:43
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:Diamond value is almost entirely the result of modern propaganda about weddings and the DeBeers cartel, so those certainly were different. Diamonds have been highly valued in India from at least the middle ages. There are multiple famed Indian diamonds, which appear in the historical record, and European traders were importing Indian diamonds at huge expense from at least the 17th c. The DeBeers cartel didn't increase the value of diamonds, so much as prevent prices from crashing after the discovery of new African supply. Also the DeBeers cartel was broken decades ago, and diamonds haven't got any cheaper.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 16:49
|
|
|
Gemstones were valuable, just more irregularly, since unlike gold or silver, you can't rely on the ability to melt them down to get more simple by-weight values. Each individual gemstone would have its own value dependent on its individual characteristics. Even more annoying is the fact that sources from before modern geological standards had a real habit of not identifying rocks correctly by modern standards, so it gets hard to track down. From what I've read, early diamonds looked kinda lovely because they couldn't cut them properly to take full advantage of their refractive properties.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 16:50
|
|
|
Pliny the Elder claims that Marcus Antonius proscribed a senator because the senator refused to sell him an opal. Regarding carnellian, in 1985, they uncovered theSnettisham Jeweller's Hoard, a Romano-British hoard that included 117 engraved carnellian stones ready to be set in rings. Epicurius fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Jun 20, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 16:54
|
|
|
Mr Enderby posted:
What happened was the monopoly morphed into a cartel. quote:From what I've read, early diamonds looked kinda lovely because they couldn't cut them properly to take full advantage of their refractive properties. Tunicate fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Jun 20, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 16:58
|
|
|
I know a fair amount about gems, and a bit about their role in the classical era, though not much about their valuation. I'll shotgun some random facts below but happy to attempt to answer and gem questions. One thing to remember is that (as mentioned above) ancient gem definitions weren't the same as modern ones. 'Sapphire' for a long time almost certainly referred to what we now call lapis, at least initially, and 'emerald' included both true emeralds from Egypt (though, having looked at samples from that deposit, they are kind of lovely) and other green gems like chrome chalcedony from Turkey. Ie, here's a pair of Roman earrings with Egyptian emerald crystals (all jewelry pictures taken from Christie's auctions, great resource):  and a Roman chrome chalcedony ring:  They did know that these two weren't exactly the same thing (anyone who shaped them would likely realize the differences in hardness and toughness right away) but they were both held under the 'smaragdus' banner anyway. They did love their carnelian, though as with today a lot of what's was actually on the market was likely heat treated or dyed to give a more uniform and intense red color (what comes out of the ground is usually more orange and more unevenly colored). Like, this is a Roman carnelian ring:  This is what a more typical natural carnelian looks like:  That's not to say that solid, totally uniform red carnelian doesn't exist in nature, but it's always suspicious, and we know for a fact they had a well-developed gem-treating industry. As Pliny the elder put it, Pliny posted:I have in my library certain books by authors now living, whom I would under no circumstances name… containing, for example, information on how to make a sardonyx from carnelian: in other words, how to transform one stone into another. To tell the truth, there is no fraud or deceit in the world that yields greater gain and profit than that of counterfeiting gems. In addition to the classic signet rings, cameos were another big category of jewel that we don't see as much of today (no market demand--lots of jewelers have drawers full of them they'd love to get rid of). These were largely carved from rocks like onyx that have alternating bands of color, allowing a nice contrast between the carved foreground and the background. Like the carnelian above this was often produced by dyeing of less-colorful agates.  Here's a picture showing some before and after, even some text if you don't mind using a magnifying glass to read it:  (sorry, it's the best image I could find).  Here's a Roman signet ring, carved from agate that has almost certainly been dyed as above. The preferred method was (and is) to soak the stone in honey to allow the porous layers to absorb sugar, and then heat it (particularly in a reducing atmosphere, ie the bottom of a burning dungheap) to carbonize the sugar, leaving black deposits throughout. Today this is usually helped along with sulphuric acid. The person who has done the best research on this that I have seen is Çigdem Lüle, those papers are worth looking up if you get a chance.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 19:18
|
|
|
putting aside boring stuff like spices are there many things today that are very inexpensive compared to in roman times? if i had a time machine and a tight budget and wanted to pass myself off as a rich foreigner what would i encrust myself with?
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 19:37
|
|
|
CoolCab posted:very inexpensive compared to in roman times food, unless you were in the city with free food I think generally speaking the modern state of things where food is cheaper than shelter for laborers was the reverse for most of history where it makes sense to even ask the question
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 19:48
|
|
|
Amethyst was way more expensive before the extensive South American deposits were discovered. Of course the price today is also strongly depressed by the abundance of undisclosed synthetics.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 19:48
|
|
|
CoolCab posted:putting aside boring stuff like spices are there many things today that are very inexpensive compared to in roman times? if i had a time machine and a tight budget and wanted to pass myself off as a rich foreigner what would i encrust myself with? Dyes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 19:49
|
|
|
CoolCab posted:putting aside boring stuff like spices are there many things today that are very inexpensive compared to in roman times? if i had a time machine and a tight budget and wanted to pass myself off as a rich foreigner what would i encrust myself with? Seriously though: I see it repeated as a truism that salt was practically money in ancient times, but I've read other sources indicating that the plenitude of salt was wildly variable based on region. I read something in a book I can't remember that a proverb in one coastal French region, in medieval times, was "Salt and advice are free for the taking." Any comment on that?
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 19:55
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:Salt and pepper, maybe a little saffron. I also know native Hawaiians had carved small "bowls" into coastal rock formations to put water into so it would evaporate and they could then collect the salt. So I think the "its regional" thing sounds apt. Also those references arent Roman era but I think they are still relevant.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 20:01
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:Salt and pepper, maybe a little saffron. quote:Seriously though: I see it repeated as a truism that salt was practically money in ancient times, but I've read other sources indicating that the plenitude of salt was wildly variable based on region. I read something in a book I can't remember that a proverb in one coastal French region, in medieval times, was "Salt and advice are free for the taking." Any comment on that? that comes from the salary myth, i think? salt generation is mostly about managing seaside real estate and sunlight iirc
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 20:04
|
|
|
CoolCab posted:putting aside boring stuff like spices are there many things today that are very inexpensive compared to in roman times? if i had a time machine and a tight budget and wanted to pass myself off as a rich foreigner what would i encrust myself with? Antibiotics and a pistol, you are now a wizard
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 20:07
|
|
|
just bring a couple books of matches, maybe some gas station lighters, and everyone would lose their poo poo
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 20:10
|
|
|
Distillation and double entry bookkeeping.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 20:21
|
|
|
CoolCab posted:putting aside boring stuff like spices are there many things today that are very inexpensive compared to in roman times? if i had a time machine and a tight budget and wanted to pass myself off as a rich foreigner what would i encrust myself with? Literally anything purple colored, but be careful because some of the crazier emperors will kill you over it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 20:21
|
|
|
I bet it was really hard to get a decent pizza pie back then. Also a smartphone
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 20:27
|
|
|
fantastic in plastic posted:Literally anything purple colored, but be careful because some of the crazier emperors will kill you over it. Depending on where you are in the world (okay it said Rome but) wearing ostentatious clothing will get you in trouble even under the sanest rulers. There were some pretty strict sumptuary laws dictating what you can and can't wear as a non-noble through most of East Asian history. Rockopolis posted:Distillation Read this as defenestration at first, was disappointed
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 20:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 01:13 |
|
|
Rockopolis posted:Distillation and double entry bookkeeping. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lest_Darkness_Fall
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2018 20:36
|
|